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Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

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  #1  
Old 09-20-2013, 9:41 AM
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Default Comparison test of self defense ammunition for .22lr pistols

I have been watching Brass Fetcher's youtube videos for a while now and I don't see his work mentioned on this forum much, I just though I would share this relatively new video he made comparing different ammo types for S.D. with a .22lr handgun.

Kicking a dead horse, I know, but he does compare a whole lot of different ammo types and it's still interesting to see the results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R22ah5S9pu4

He compares 13 different ammo types for penetration depth, and expansion.

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  #2  
Old 09-20-2013, 10:44 AM
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Interesting Video, thanks OP!
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Old 09-26-2013, 6:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by durandal View Post
comparing different ammo types for S.D. with a .22lr handgun.
You'd be better off with a 12" cast iron skillet or a baseball bat.

I like .22LR as much as anyone and have individual .22LR firearms that cost over $4K but if something goes bump in the night, I'm not reaching for a .22!
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Old 09-26-2013, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by hatidua View Post
You'd be better off with a 12" cast iron skillet or a baseball bat.

I like .22LR as much as anyone and have individual .22LR firearms that cost over $4K but if something goes bump in the night, I'm not reaching for a .22!
OK,

say you live in a very dense urban environment, with a dozen people in every direction and only two to three layers of sheet rock between you and them. I believe a segmented hollow point .22lr is a good choice for this scenario.

also consider the ease of which follow up shots can be placed for a relatively untrained shooter. and how the low recoil and light weight of the firearm may be preferable for someone who is elderly and with severe physical problems such as arthritis.

Personally, I'd rather not use a baseball bat to fight someone indoors.

and all that aside, wouldn't you rather have access to this information than just dismiss the use of a.22lr in a defensive capacity out of hand?

Last edited by durandal; 09-26-2013 at 11:01 PM..
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Old 09-27-2013, 6:03 AM
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Put yourself in the bad-guys shoes -

Do you have ANY idea the caliber in the gun being pointed at you in the split-second before getting shot?

Yes, one can probably tell the difference between a .22 and .45, but in both cases you are being muzzled with a firearm, and you'd best decide PDQ if you are going to cease your actions or hope "its just a 22LR, I'ma keep on raping"

Personally, I'd say frying-pan/bat is a far worse option than a 22, and I know you were being glib/snarky (or maybe not), but when you stop and think about it, IMO, its just poor advice
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by durandal View Post
wouldn't you rather have access to this information than just dismiss the use of a.22lr in a defensive capacity out of hand?
I didn't dismiss it out of hand, I dismissed it based on quite a bit of testing using materials that closely resemble the structures where I live, namely sheetrock, plywood, insulation, and wood siding. A few friends and I have set up "walls" on numerous occasions and have tested .22/.380/9mm/.40/.45/.223, and many different 12ga loads. I have not shot dead pigs, which seems the go-to thing for this kind of testing but I worry about my neighbors, which is what someone brought up in a reply above. As such, I've mainly tested for expansion and penetration in walls that are close to what I have surrounding me.

We've tested pistols, shotguns, and SBR's down to 10" and just about every conceivable load that seemed appropriate, or that we were curious about. While there is a lot of commonly held beliefs when it comes to bullet behavior, some of them are downright dangerous in terms of penetration (M193 does NOT tumble in sheetrock as much as the internet would have us believe...at all, and 00-buck is going to visit your neighbor four doors up if you aren't careful). Conversely, some loads won't hardly go through a single sheet of drywall (.223 Vmax might not make it through a thick Winter coat and that round is traveling out of the muzzle at over 3400fps ).

I don't dismiss .22 in the slightest...as long as it's used within its limitations, I shoot more .22 than all other calibers combined. However, imagine a large 125# dog (just for the sake of argument) that is eagerly intent on doing you immediate harm, would you reach for a .22 pistol, or baseball bat? -bear in mind, this critter is going to close the gap between you and it in under two seconds...not sit still like ballistic gel. .22's are great fun against squirrels and paper out to 450 yards (74.75moa drop with subsonic 40gr from a 20" barrel if you were curious) but if that Rottweiler is going to attack me, give me the bat or a firearm that has a realistic chance of stopping the threat at hand, not simply something that will irritate the aggressor.

To simulate my walls, I figured on a layer of sheetrock, insulation, then my outer plywood, then the wood siding. After that, a gap between me and my neighbors house, followed by their sideing, plywood, insulation, and their first inner wall.

Water, with first jug wrapped in denim was also used to determine level of expansion in something soft. Some loads did not expand very well, others did great.

I've purposely omitted the photos that detail the individual results as I feel this is an educational endeavor to do this yourself rather than believing something read online. Go to Home Depot and for under $30 you can buy enough stuff to make your own test materials that are relevant to your own situation, these are simply some snapshots of my testing (WARNING: if you do this yourself, take ample garbage bags with you to pick up the debris, shooting drywall is very messy!).



These are set up end to end:



Pistols, shotguns, SBR's are used to test various calibers:



Last edited by hatidua; 09-27-2013 at 12:38 PM..
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Old 09-27-2013, 12:34 PM
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Self-defense and .22s is oxymoronic.

What a waste of time.
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Old 09-27-2013, 2:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
Self-defense and .22s is oxymoronic.

What a waste of time.
I will agree with you as soon as you are willing to take one in the eye.
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Old 09-27-2013, 2:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadodave View Post
I will agree with you as soon as you are willing to take one in the eye.
-by that criteria, we might as well just all go to a Daisy bb gun or a sling-shot
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Old 09-27-2013, 2:53 PM
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.22 is not as effective as some other calibers, but it certainly better than a sharp stick.
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Old 09-27-2013, 5:34 PM
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Great for target practice and good assassin weapon for a close up head shot (the bullet goes in and doesn’t come out, just bounces around your brain) but for home defense, hmmm.
Let me tell you a story about something back in the day when I was in my late teens.
I had some friends and these knuckleheads were looking at a 22 hand gun. One knucklehead was in the middle of the living room with the gun while a few others sat on the sofa. The knucklehead with the gun accidentally fired a round and it hit one of my friends in the face. It was about his nose, I think it was close to his left nostril if I remember right. The guy that shot him was maybe 3, but no more then 4 feet away. The bullet went inside his nose and he spit the bullet out.
Yes he blead some but not that much and he had a little hole near his nose (or an extra nostril) but none the worse for wear from that event (other than to brag about getting shot), and in a few week you couldn't even tell were he got shot.

Yea a 22lr, better than nothing but for me, in a home defense situation, I’m going a wee bit larger caliber.

Last edited by EddieEd; 09-28-2013 at 3:37 AM..
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  #12  
Old 09-28-2013, 7:47 AM
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Thats some impressive testing.

I implied a .22 was best for someone who is untrained and is too recoil shy to handle anything else, or for someone who has severe physical impairment, and i believe it can still function adequately in that role.

But honestly a baseball bat is not my choice for self defense indoors. I'd consider it useless, unless it was a kid's bat:


For impact weapon I'd rather use ironwood Like kamagong or bahi.


They do make minibat flashlights.


For blades, well..
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Last edited by durandal; 09-28-2013 at 9:33 AM..
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadodave View Post
I will agree with you as soon as you are willing to take one in the eye.
When you are good enough to hit me in the eye while I'm moving I might take you seriously.

During a panic situation very few people can place a shot where they want even when they have been trained. So depending on your ability to place a shot exactly where it needs to be to save your life is insane.

With a more powerful round you may very well slow or deter the attacker so you can place a better shot. Even a 9mm in the chest cannot be counted on to stop an attack let alone a .22.
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legasat View Post
.22 is not as effective as some other calibers, but it certainly better than a sharp stick.
The only difference between a .22 and a sharp stick is that you don't have to get as close with a .22. LOL Just kidding, but the real deterrence of a .22 is the visual effect of having a gun in your hand. Many bad guys would probably run away if they are not armed and determined.

If you have a problem with recoil, I suggest a FN Five-Seven. If that is too expensive, and they are expensive, there are some other alternatives, but we are limited in Comiefornia so it's tough to even get the FN 5.7. PMR 30 maybe, also not available in CA.

If it's just the recoil and you are not handicapped, I'd get a 9mm and practice.

Another thing, a lot of the preppers out there swear that the .22lr is the only thing you need for survival. And when I point out that the .22 is not going to be much of a deterrent against someone with an AR in 5.56, I get back, "Well I'll just shoot you in the eye." Or something to that effect. Self-deception is not a good tactic.
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Last edited by ScottsBad; 09-28-2013 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 09-28-2013, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieEd View Post
Great for target practice and good assassin weapon for a close up head shot (the bullet goes in and doesn’t come out, just bounces around your brain) but for home defense, hmmm.
Let me tell you a story about something back in the day when I was in my late teens.
I had some friends and these knuckleheads were looking at a 22 hand gun. One knucklehead was in the middle of the living room with the gun while a few others sat on the sofa. The knucklehead with the gun accidentally fired a round and it hit one of my friends in the face. It was about his nose, I think it was close to his left nostril if I remember right. The guy that shot him was maybe 3, but no more then 4 feet away. The bullet went inside his nose and he spit the bullet out.
Yes he blead some but not that much and he had a little hole near his nose (or an extra nostril) but none the worse for wear from that event (other than to brag about getting shot), and in a few week you couldn't even tell were he got shot.

Yea a 22lr, better than nothing but for me, in a home defense situation, I’m going a wee bit larger caliber.
sorry, but I call BS!!!
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Old 09-28-2013, 11:26 AM
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sorry, but I call BS!!!
Thats what i was thinking.. Maybe if it was a CB cap round with no powder.. (Equivalent to a 4.5mm bb gun)
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Old 09-28-2013, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
When you are good enough to hit me in the eye while I'm moving I might take you seriously.
Yeah.... but 10 rounds out of my target gun as fast as I can.... which is fast since theres no recoil.... all aimed in the general head area... odds are 1 or more will find an eye socket... Even if one doesnt... up to 10 rounds in the face doesnt bode well for anybody.


Yeah, yeah I know.... shouldnt shoot more than 2 or 3 rounds blah blah... When it comes down to it... I'd shoot as many as I have to.

Now, my home gun is not a 22. Many years ago I lived in an apartment. I had a 22, and a 308....

The 22 was the house gun for obvious reasons.
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Old 09-29-2013, 6:11 AM
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I think the neigh-sayers are looking at this incorrectly.

1) At no point did the OP, or the linked Brass Fetcher, claim that 22LR was/is/might-be an effective HD/PD round choice. So you are attacking a claim that was not made. This is not to discount the value from an educational standpoint, and I'm sure all uninformed people who might read this thread can appreciate your efforts.

2) If, now I know this is crazy, but if the only gun you owned (because they are expensive, because your SigOther is an Anti, because you are a child and it was a gift from dad, because ...), IF the only gun you owned was a 22, would you NOT want to know what the most effective ammo was? I really don't see any conflict here. Its just information.

I've got a smattering of 22, probably 10 different kinds because (market) beggars can't be choosers. And I went and paid too much for some CCI Velocitors just so I could keep a mag loaded with them, in addition to the 12ga sitting next to it.

Last edited by hardlyworking; 09-29-2013 at 6:16 AM..
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Old 09-29-2013, 6:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadodave View Post
I will agree with you as soon as you are willing to take one in the eye.
HAH! Good one!!!
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Old 09-29-2013, 6:46 AM
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I got "accidentally" shot when I was 17 (1988) in the abdomen with a .22lr,it entered 2 inches above,and slightly left of my navel and exited 1.5 inches left of my spine. It then hit my t-shirt and fell to the floor.
I also was personally acquainted with 2 individuals who were killed with .22's. One was a homicide and the other a suicide(above the eye and roof of the mouth respectively).
While certainly not an ideal self defense round,a .22 is capable of inflicting serious,if not fatal wounds. To those who disregard it's capabilities,well,take one to the gut and then get back to us....
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Old 09-29-2013, 7:15 AM
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On the ranch I kill steers,sheep,goats with a 22 and it is very good at dispatching these animals as long as I do my job.

Not a defense weapon in my opinion but very effective at killing.
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Old 09-29-2013, 7:24 AM
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Told my wife it she got put in a situation to grab the mark II. Light and easily able to fire multiple rounds. I have never been shot but if I was a common criminal, and most likely it is in the dark, I doubt after he gets shot twice he knows what he got shot with. If he is even still standing and able to move he is going to try to run away or come at you. Still got 6 more shots. Local gun shop had a graph on intruders stopped with what calibers. 22 was at the top. Probably because of popularity. Anyone else see that stuck to the counter at Paladins?
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Old 09-29-2013, 7:27 AM
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PS
Would rather have my wife shoot the 40 but here comfort level is not as high. She is VERY confident with the Ruger and I guarantee even shakin she can fire 8 rds repeatedly in a couple seconds.
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Old 09-29-2013, 9:44 AM
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My choice, Kiss of the dragon
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Old 09-29-2013, 3:25 PM
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A well placed .22 LR will stop a bat or a frying pan.
10 shots of .22 LR, well, you figure it out.

6" 5" 350 lb. bouncer met his demise here from being hit with a .22.
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Old 09-29-2013, 5:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legasat View Post
.22 is not as effective as some other calibers, but it certainly better than a sharp stick.
I think history would show many more people killed with sharp sticks than with .22LR, but then again I'm better with a pistol than a stick so you have my vote.
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I beg to differ. The full length dust cover rail makes a world of difference in the "when I run out of bullets I'm going to beat you to death with the pistol" look that causes bad guys to run in fear, and lesser men to feel inadequate. It looks just plain beastly and the extra heft up front does help manage recoil a bit better. Plus, an angel told me that when God called JMB to heaven it was to build him a full rail 1911!
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 1911Luvr View Post
I think history would show many more people killed with sharp sticks than with .22LR, but then again I'm better with a pistol than a stick so you have my vote.
Considering that sharp sticks have been around a lot longer than firearms your argument could probably apply to all calibers.
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:50 PM
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Is .22LR my first choice for a self defense caliber? Absolutely not.

Is .22LR better than nothing? Read this article and then decide for yourself.
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Old 12-16-2013, 6:41 PM
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Well guys, how about the noise and blast factor? If I was sneaking in or trying to break in a house at night and an unidentified gun was fired at me I'm pretty sure I'd sh-t myself first and then run like hell. It wouldn't matter if I was hit or not, the trouble would be over. Shoot something you are comfortable with and can hit with.
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Old 12-22-2013, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricky s View Post
Well guys, how about the noise and blast factor? If I was sneaking in or trying to break in a house at night and an unidentified gun was fired at me I'm pretty sure I'd sh-t myself first and then run like hell. It wouldn't matter if I was hit or not, the trouble would be over. Shoot something you are comfortable with and can hit with.
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Old 12-22-2013, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by hatidua View Post
You'd be better off with a 12" cast iron skillet or a baseball bat.

I like .22LR as much as anyone and have individual .22LR firearms that cost over $4K but if something goes bump in the night, I'm not reaching for a .22!
I would almost bet one of those $4k .22s (OOH! ) that you'd grab a Mosquito before you grabbed a frying pan if that was all you had.

I say "almost" because I don't know you from Adam. There is a possibility that you really are that stupid but I doubt it.
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I hope Ruger pays the extortion fees for the SR1911. I mean the gun is just as good if not better than a Les Baer.
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Old 12-23-2013, 4:41 PM
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I thought question was which .22 round was the best for home defense? Guess I missed something.....OP good question, I am interested as well. I for one will also call BS on anyone that doesn't think a .22 will protect you. If your firing rounds at somebody and there still coming at you, your in a f'd up situation no matter what caliber. I bet anyone on here wouldn't be willing to take a .22 round at any distance to prove there point.
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Old 12-23-2013, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelster1574 View Post
I thought question was which .22 round was the best for home defense?
The general knock on .22 rimfire for defense is ammo reliability. We all hear about duds. That is why most would prefer a .25 ACP to a .22 rimfire.

If my only weapon was a .22 I would want it loaded with MiniMag LRHP. They always seem to go bang and the general consensus is that if your .22 won't run with MiniMags then there is something wrong with it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackRydden224
I hope Ruger pays the extortion fees for the SR1911. I mean the gun is just as good if not better than a Les Baer.
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A Colt collector shooting Rugers is like Hugh Grant cheating on Elizabeth Hurley with a hooker.
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Old 12-24-2013, 1:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishslayer View Post
The general knock on .22 rimfire for defense is ammo reliability. We all hear about duds. That is why most would prefer a .25 ACP to a .22 rimfire.

If my only weapon was a .22 I would want it loaded with MiniMag LRHP. They always seem to go bang and the general consensus is that if your .22 won't run with MiniMags then there is something wrong with it.
+1, I agree on the CCI Mini Mags......great .22lr round
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Old 12-24-2013, 1:11 PM
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I could put 50 rounds of 22 in a guy in probably less than ten seconds with one of these and 100% reliably too..

If anything the extra weight of the lead in him would be too much to bear..Is the .22 ideal. Probably not but I can spray alot of lead really quick with one..And very accurately too..

Last edited by AR22; 12-24-2013 at 1:20 PM..
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Old 12-24-2013, 1:24 PM
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I think some of the comments here truly demonstrate the ignorance that feeds the media. Stop being a ballistics expert and understand the general fawking concept. Its funny to hear "experts" and their tests and what they know. 85% of the people on this board are not experts in any field. And the rest are experts in some field or another but very few are ballistic experts. And for record, working at your LGS or putting a LPK into an AR makes you an average joe not an expert.

With the short rant over, anyone who believes that a pan, bat or some ninja weapon is better than any caliber firearm is a fawking moron. Bullets give you some distance and unless you are one hell of a shot with a pan, my 6'0 260 lbs will be up close and personal.

So in closing as being a large man I would like a .22 instead of an uzi pen knife in defense of my home. I however am an American and choose a larger caliner to do such defense. I have no issues with a .22 in an emergency. And good ammo in an SR-22 or M&P 22 pistol that is maintained properly with handle it all day long.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelster1574 View Post
+1, I agree on the CCI Mini Mags......great .22lr round
DITTO....just can't find enough of them!
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Old 01-01-2014, 4:46 AM
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A lethal force handgun class I attended years ago had a nurse who worked at Folsom prison among the class participants . She told the class about how most of the career violent felons she treated all seemed to have scars from bullet wounds and they would laugh and joke with her about being shot and surviving .
Apparently the risk of being shot is not a deterrent for these hardened criminal types . You could shoot someone with a .22 and deliver lethal injury hits but if the person is not incapacitated reaches you and stabs you what good did it do you . What if the intruder you shoot with your .22 is also armed but with a bigger caliber handgun and survives your hits to deliver his own multiple hits to your body ? If the situation is serious enough that you have to shoot somebody to defend yourself you had better have the best tool for the job rather than relying on some hypothetical scenario making exact placement .22 shots under duress .
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Old 01-02-2014, 7:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatidua View Post
You'd be better off with a 12" cast iron skillet or a baseball bat.
I like .22LR as much as anyone and have individual .22LR firearms that cost over $4K but if something goes bump in the night, I'm not reaching for a .22!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottsBad View Post
Self-defense and .22s is oxymoronic.
What a waste of time.
Would something bigger be preferable to something smaller for self defense? You betcha. But something smaller is better than nothing, and better than a bat or a knife. A lot of folks (older people mostly) don't have the dexterity or strength to handle a larger caliber handgun. Such guns have stiffer springs, are physically larger, have higher recoil etc. What do these folks do? If they can't pull back a slide, they sure as hell aren't going to swing a bat or a 12" iron skillet.

And while we are talking swigging bats or using knifes, realistically there are a whole lot of people that if that is what happened, the perp would get the upper hand anyway. If you are that close, you've probably already lost. And if you are less physically fit than the perp, 100% you've already lost.

And if they didn't and you took them down, are you going to swing again? You really, really, really don't want to have to explain to the police why that perp had 5 stab wounds, or a bat blow to the head AND chest.

Any gun is better than no gun. A gun that you know how to shoot, and practice with, is better than a bigger gun that you don't. A .22 is better than a bat, or a knife. A .22 that you know how to operate and can shoot under pressure is better than a 9mm or .45 that you can't.
It IS a valid self defense option if your constraints are such that it is all that is realistic.
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Last edited by ptoguy2002; 01-02-2014 at 7:15 AM..
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Old 01-02-2014, 7:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BBJohnnyT View Post
.... nothing? Read this article and then decide for yourself.
Wow, that is an f-ed up situation.
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