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  #1  
Old 09-01-2019, 1:07 PM
MarikinaMan MarikinaMan is offline
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Default Frangible 223 vs 5/8” AR500 steel at 15 yards

Looked in my Hogdon manual and saw Sinterfire 223 45gr loads recommended at 23 to 26 grains using H335.

Loaded up 100 at 24gr of H335. Seemed like a safe weak load.

Shot at 15 yards, and I got some cratering. Very shallow at that, but still. About 1mm or less, but I can feel it with my fingers and catch my nail on it.

Comparatively, my jacketed pistol rounds loaded hot (1100 FPS) make a visual mark, but leaves the steel smooth as a baby’s bottom.

So, should I go to min, can I go lower? I’ve never gone lower than minimum so this is new territory for me. What’s the easiest way to develop a weak load without too much development work. Does 0.5 grain count for a lot? Like a couple hundred FPS?

I’m shooting short range and all I really want is for the rifle to cycle well without tumbling for 50-75 yards.. Known 223 fart recipes requested for H335 and 45gr projectiles.

Last edited by MarikinaMan; 09-01-2019 at 2:33 PM..
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Old 09-01-2019, 2:04 PM
MarikinaMan MarikinaMan is offline
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Not happy. I think I'll try the absolute minimum, then start backing off by 1 grain until it stops pock marking my steel. Theoretically, this is achievable and still cycle huh?






Last edited by MarikinaMan; 09-01-2019 at 2:33 PM..
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  #3  
Old 09-01-2019, 7:53 PM
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Paseclipse Paseclipse is offline
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Have you ran your loads through a chronograph yet to find out what sort of velocity they're at?

IDK, 15 yards on steel with 223 sounds pretty dangerous to me, especially if you don't know what sort of velocity your pushing the bullets at.

If I feel the need to shoot steel up close I'll do it with my PCC's.
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Old 09-02-2019, 2:49 AM
JackEllis JackEllis is offline
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You’re begging for trouble shooting steel plates at that distance. Everything I’ve seen says velocities above 3,000 FPS will pockmark hardened steel plates. You also need to be concerned about ricochets at that distance.

Why do you need to shoot a plate with a .223 round at 15 yards?
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Old 09-02-2019, 5:16 AM
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You are too close for rifle velocity. Take a good sanding disc and grind off the high rings around the craters.
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  #6  
Old 09-02-2019, 5:46 AM
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Why bother with a rifle at 15 yards?


Not worth the risk IMO.
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Old 09-02-2019, 7:42 AM
MarikinaMan MarikinaMan is offline
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I appreciate the warnings, but shooting steel is what these projectiles are made for. I just need figure it out. Why shoot close range? To train with the rifle shooting at close range. When I compete in carbine matches, it is always a mix of close and long range targets. Some as close as 5 yards. Lotsa fun. Taping and replacing paper for fast action shooting gets old fast.

Did some more research. For CQB training with frangibles, I need to bring it down to 2700 FPS. I’ll be making a few test rounds and find the load that gets me there.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...rangible-ammo/

Last edited by MarikinaMan; 09-02-2019 at 8:02 AM..
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Old 09-02-2019, 8:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarikinaMan View Post
I appreciate the warnings, but shooting steel is what these projectiles are made for. I just need figure it out. Why shoot close range? To train with the rifle shooting at close range. When I compete in carbine matches, it is always a mix of close and long range targets. Some as close as 5 yards. Lotsa fun. Taping and replacing paper for fast action shooting gets old fast.

Did some more research. For CQB training with frangibles, I need to bring it down to 2700 FPS. I’ll be making a few test rounds and find the load that gets me there.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...rangible-ammo/


What carbine match has steel targets at 5 yards?
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Old 09-02-2019, 8:17 AM
MarikinaMan MarikinaMan is offline
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Originally Posted by baranski View Post
What carbine match has steel targets at 5 yards?
Paper targets up close at Pala. There were dozens of participants. Taping was easy.

Last edited by MarikinaMan; 09-02-2019 at 8:20 AM..
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  #10  
Old 09-02-2019, 9:09 AM
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At least frangible will only blow back particles, but still 15yds is pretty close.

Last edited by smoothy8500; 09-02-2019 at 9:15 AM..
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarikinaMan View Post
I appreciate the warnings, but shooting steel is what these projectiles are made for. I just need figure it out. Why shoot close range? To train with the rifle shooting at close range. When I compete in carbine matches, it is always a mix of close and long range targets. Some as close as 5 yards. Lotsa fun. Taping and replacing paper for fast action shooting gets old fast.

Most steel plate companies say 100 yards minimum for centerfire rifles. 15 yards even with a handgun is pushing it.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:13 AM
MarikinaMan MarikinaMan is offline
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^^^^i think you missed the frangible part.

same projectile vs steel at point blank starting at 6:00. I think I’m good. Just need a load with less velocity to conserve my steel.


Last edited by MarikinaMan; 09-02-2019 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 09-02-2019, 5:47 PM
JackEllis JackEllis is offline
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If you have to shoot at that range, make targets out of two layers of 3/4 inch plywood. They’ll get chewed up but you won’t have to worry about beating up steel targets and you can probably use your competition load.
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Old 09-02-2019, 8:50 PM
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Frangible or not, velocity kills steel targets.

Your round is too fast for shooting steel targets at 15 yards without causing any damage to the target, frangible bullet or not.

If you want to continue lowering the velocity I'd look at different powders, say H4895 or trailboss.

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/upl...ifle-loads.pdf

Edit to add: With a 45 grain sinterfire bullet and 23 grains of H-335 out of a 24 inch barrel you're looking at 3100 fps. Out of a 16 inch barrel you're still looking at 2700 fps or so. That's just too fast.
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Last edited by NapalmCheese; 09-02-2019 at 8:58 PM..
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:36 PM
MarikinaMan MarikinaMan is offline
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^^^you are right. I saw that H4895. I may just try it if I can get a hold of some.
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Old 09-03-2019, 6:31 AM
MarikinaMan MarikinaMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NapalmCheese View Post
Frangible or not, velocity kills steel targets.

Your round is too fast for shooting steel targets at 15 yards without causing any damage to the target, frangible bullet or not.

If you want to continue lowering the velocity I'd look at different powders, say H4895 or trailboss.

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/upl...ifle-loads.pdf

Edit to add: With a 45 grain sinterfire bullet and 23 grains of H-335 out of a 24 inch barrel you're looking at 3100 fps. Out of a 16 inch barrel you're still looking at 2700 fps or so. That's just too fast.
Hi. How did you get the 2700 fps for 45gr and 23 gr of H335 out of a 16" barrel? I'd be very happy with that. I have the 24" barrel data as well. Can you teach me your kung fu?

JT
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Old 09-03-2019, 7:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarikinaMan View Post
Hi. How did you get the 2700 fps for 45gr and 23 gr of H335 out of a 16" barrel? I'd be very happy with that. I have the 24" barrel data as well. Can you teach me your kung fu?

JT
Just a guesstimate based on published data, I have no personal experience with that load.
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Old 09-03-2019, 3:39 PM
MarikinaMan MarikinaMan is offline
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^^^ good enough for me. just needed a little guidance. I have decided I will not go below the minimum recommended load as there may be results that are opposite of what I want. I will go ahead a load a few at 23 grains and clock 'em. thanks.
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Old 09-15-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarikinaMan View Post
^^^ good enough for me. just needed a little guidance. I have decided I will not go below the minimum recommended load as there may be results that are opposite of what I want. I will go ahead a load a few at 23 grains and clock 'em. thanks.
I'm a bit late to this party. Saw it last week but wasn't in a position to post.

If it where me in this particular situation, I might make up my mind not to care too much about what the target's gonna look like. Probably last 50K hits anyway, just look ugly is all. Might be a good idea to go over it with a flapper wheel on an angle grinder once in a while to take off the burrs that'll build up. They'd probably get to be a safety hazard after a while.

But since you are reloading these yourself anyway, I can also suggest you try Winchester 748. From my own experience, 748 produces less velocity than H335, all other things being equal.
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  #20  
Old 09-20-2019, 5:51 AM
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Be careful on not enough powder on less than minimum load. The problem is, when you shoot the bullet lays flat, not standing up like in a press. The powder lays flat in the case. If the powder lays below the primer flash hole, then the flame goes across the top of all the powder setting it all off at once. This creates a pressure spike. A sudden high pressure then nothing.

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  #21  
Old 09-26-2019, 6:37 PM
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I used the identical load the OP used at about 20 feet and made a video.
45 gr Sinterfire over 25 gr H335

I painted the target after I shot it so the impact damage could be seen more plainly.

Check it out

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Old 09-26-2019, 6:39 PM
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Default VIDEO with frangible ammo @ 20 feet

I used the identical load the OP used at about 20 feet and made a video.
45 gr Sinterfire over 25 gr H335

I painted the target after I shot it so the impact damage could be seen more plainly.

Check it out

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