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California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here. |
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#41
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I gather you aren't a student of gunfighting to not be familiar with this much studied shootout. Besides Jim writing about it in his book, he has also taught it national in classes and it was obviously investigated at the time. He was behind cover at a stakeout when 3 armed robbers entered. The followup investigation determined that they were all about 60-75 feet (25 yards) from Jim when he started shooting. Two perps were behind customers and in one case, he only had a 6" window in which to take the shots on a moving head. He was shooting his S&W M-10, emptied one and drew the other before the fight ended. Quote:
The rear is a tube mounted sideways under the notch. It is mounted from underneath so it can't be dislodged when the gun is knocked about...this is a duty gun that I also carried while off-duty Quote:
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale Last edited by 9mmepiphany; 03-24-2013 at 9:34 AM.. |
#42
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If this isn't the right place to ask I apologize, but would the same thought process apply to having a single fiber front sight?
I ask because competitive shooters seem to use them, and I would think the same theory of a busy sight picture would apply. |
#43
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Uh....I'm invoking my Fifth, sir.
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#44
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That isn't to say I haven't seen it used as an aiming point. I'll even bet I've used mine on close and dirty targets. The mantra to shooting quick/accurate shots is knowing how fine a sight picture you need to hit the size target you need
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale |
#45
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"Show me a young conservative and I'll show you a man without a heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you a man without a brain." - Sir Winston Churchill "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Senator Barry Goldwater |
#46
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Just a couple of quick thoughts, all based on the assumption that the individual involved has decent skills.
1) Night sights aren't designed to help you shoot targets that are in the dark, they are designed to help you find the sights when the gun is in the dark. The presence of night sights on your gun have nothing to do with target identification. 2) Under truly high stress situations such as those involving shooting at someone or someone shooting at you, it is unlikely that you are going to get a solid sight picture. That type of self discipline is rare. Anything you can do to provide rapid conformation of your weapons presentation to your target is probably a good thing as long as it doesn't add to the complexity of the action. You want something that functions at an instinctual level, not something that must be deliberately processed or performed. A single tritium front sight provides that. 3) Ghost rings on shotguns rarely provide anything other then more profit for the manufacturer and the marketing department. They tend to be a little slower to get on target and require more drop built into the shotgun stock system. The increased drop usually expresses it's self by increasing felt recoil and muzzle flip. The exception is when you are trying to use the shotgun as a rifle which it does poorly regardless of the sighting system. When you are trying to sell $350 shotguns for $800 you have to add something visual to them or nobody will buy them so you add sights that set way too high above the bore centerline, paint it black, and call it the tactical model. |
#47
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While he wasn't shooting very quickly...the crime scene reconstruction showed that he hit all three felons, with his 6 shots, in about 3 seconds...I'd think he'd want to be aware of where the other ones where moving while he was shooting the first. Quote:
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It demonstrated to me that a rear night sight element wasn't needed to place accurate shots on target
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale Last edited by 9mmepiphany; 03-24-2013 at 12:14 PM.. |
#48
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I agree with 9mm and believe that he is on point here.
Everything he has addressed or "described" about having a proper sight picture is dead on with what I learned and practiced as a kid when I was given my first BB gun, then later with a 10-22, and then honed that much further when I enlisted in the Army. I am no "expert" self-proclaimed or otherwise. However, "front sight focus, through the notch of the rear sight" is how I was taught buy my father, grandfather, & again from various instructors in the Army. Now, with that said.....My 1911 has 3-dot night sights, as that's how it came from the factory. Since I really don't worry about them, they dont realy bother me. One day down the road, the rear sight will be replaced with a black sight. |
#49
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Looks like a modified version of Ned's shield driver sight? While it may not be the most cutting edge option, I'm a sucker for the gold bead front sight.
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WTS all BNIB: Colt S70 Repro, HK45c, Gen4 G19 Last edited by Cyc Wid It; 03-24-2013 at 12:28 PM.. |
#50
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All I asked him for is a rear sight that wouldn't float above the SIG slide's convex top and wouldn't snag on the draw. I was really surprised at the shape his solution took when I got it back. I asked that the slide be beveled and he talked me into de-hooking the trigger guard and beveling the magwell. I'm currently a large fan of the gold/brass bead front for a working gun too
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale |
#51
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So when you look down your sights you're not distracted by the rear dots? The sad thing is I installed a 3 dot set on my 1911 and with dry fire practicing I'm starting to see what you guys are talking about, that is how "busy" the sighting system becomes. I'm hoping I can learn to ignore the dots or just become proficient with sighting with the dots on this setup...
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I don't always save the world, but when I do, it's in 24 hours or less... |
#52
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"Show me a young conservative and I'll show you a man without a heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you a man without a brain." - Sir Winston Churchill "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Senator Barry Goldwater Last edited by k1dude; 03-24-2013 at 3:00 PM.. |
#53
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Thanks to this thread. I want to change my rear site tonight. Unfortunatley, I can't do that. |
#55
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale |
#56
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Just kidding. They're talking about a plain iron rear sight with a tritium front sight, as per the OP's question.
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#57
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No. I've been shot at 4 times. 3 times with bullets and 1 time with rockets and RPG's. Unfortunately I was diving for cover without a weapon on me 3 of those times. 2 were daytime and 2 were twilight.
__________________
"Show me a young conservative and I'll show you a man without a heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you a man without a brain." - Sir Winston Churchill "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Senator Barry Goldwater |
#58
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Do you believe your reaction under those circumstances are even applicable to a civilian self defense shooting?
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale |
#59
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I never said I was speaking from first hand experience. I'm using logic. When it's up close and personal and the guns are firing at you in the dark from point blank range (most shootings are less than 10 feet), I'll guarantee you won't be spending the time trying to find that illuminated front sight as the deafening muzzle blasts flash around you and you're running for cover while returning fire. To say otherwise is just.....foolish.
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"Show me a young conservative and I'll show you a man without a heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you a man without a brain." - Sir Winston Churchill "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Senator Barry Goldwater Last edited by k1dude; 03-24-2013 at 8:37 PM.. |
#60
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I only ask because earlier you posted:
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It isn't often that you'll find a student of gunfights who would discount the experience of Sykes, Fairbairn, Applegate, Jordan, Atkins, Skelton or Cirillo Quote:
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...because the journey is the worthier part...The Shepherd's Tale Last edited by 9mmepiphany; 03-24-2013 at 8:54 PM.. |
#61
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EDIT: eh...went back and read k1's other posts and realized my response had nothing to do with the topic. My bad.
Anyways, OP. After you shoot for a while, you're going to develop a preference for certain things. I found that switching out my stock sights for a wider rear U sight, and an Ameriglo Hackathorn front helped me acquire my sights faster than before, both in daylight and low-light situations. Some people prefer having three dots to line up, but I found that that's not how I like to run my pistol. Last edited by nrvnqsrxk; 03-24-2013 at 9:35 PM.. |
#62
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One of his other students was telling me he was at a well known shooting school that constantly preaches sight picture. During their scenarios he wasn't doing very well, so on his last try he threw everything they taught him out the window and reverted back to his point shooting. He scored the top score out of his class by a huge margin on that last run. He didn't tell the instructors that he was using point shooting. I guess it comes down to different strokes for different folks. And as I've said before, I still look for my sight picture before I shoot. But my speed suffers accordingly.
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"Show me a young conservative and I'll show you a man without a heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you a man without a brain." - Sir Winston Churchill "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Senator Barry Goldwater |
#64
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Me too. I might just put the stock rear sight back into my 1911...
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I don't always save the world, but when I do, it's in 24 hours or less... |
#65
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No. Point shooting is instinctive without using sights. I would recommend that anyone use both front and rear sights until you're very proficient. Lots of time and rounds downrange need to be under your belt. Then you can explore point shooting. And even then it's usually only useful at close range where most shootings take place and under less than ideal situations (like being jumped in low light in an alley). We deviated from the orginal discussion when other posters began questioning my thinking (sorry OP). We should try and get this thread back on track regarding front night sights versus front and rear night sights.
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"Show me a young conservative and I'll show you a man without a heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you a man without a brain." - Sir Winston Churchill "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Senator Barry Goldwater Last edited by k1dude; 03-25-2013 at 12:11 AM.. |
#66
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Too many dots to think about
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California's politicians and unionized government employees are a crime gang that makes the Mexican drug cartels look like a Girl Scout Troop in comparison. |
#67
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