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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 03-06-2017, 9:31 AM
Redpenny Redpenny is offline
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Default Watching a CCW ReQual

I realize that this has been covered in various threads but I was really shocked by what I saw yesterday.

Took a class this weekend with my regular instructors and they were asked to requalify a couple of CCW carriers that had gotten their original permits from another instructor.

Neither of these individuals put more than one shot in the box out of 10 from 3 yards and one of them looked not to know even the basics of how to handle their firearm. At one point this individual actually muzzled the instructor. And yet they were worked with until they passed. To top it off neither of them stayed around for the rest of the class, though they could have, to get any further instruction. Shaking head......

I would not be afraid of either of these people if they were armed in a room that I was intending to make mayhem in. And while I understand that I would not know of their incompetence I would certainly fire at them first if they drew on me and from what I saw they would have very little chance of hitting me.

The thing that was really beyond my understanding is that both of these people must believe that they are somehow capable of protecting themselves with a firearm when it was completely obvious to the other 15 people in the class that neither of them could ever hope to hit an elephant in a telephone booth under the extreme stress of an armed encounter. And probably stand a measurable chance of having the firearm taken away from them and being killed with their own gun.

I have no problem with people being armed, but do we really want to arm people who are just as likely to kill a bystander as the bad guy? It was quite the bewildering spectacle to say the least, maybe depressing is a better word...
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Old 03-06-2017, 9:44 AM
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I have seen the extremes of standards in CCW quals. I have been to the guy who uses a shot timer and expects all rounds in the paint in a certain time with a mag change added in, using the weak hand. And he imposes that standard even on new lady shooters using revolvers, so they also have a speed load or two to get done under the clock.

I have also seen the guy who will work with new shooters who clearly have little experience in handling much less shooting a firearm.

I'm of the mind that CCW is a right that should not be limited to pro shooters. So long as the person can handle a firearm safely, the ten rules, load unload etc - they should be able to carry. If they know their limits, they're not likely to be making shots on hostage takers from 30 yards.

Many crimes of violence are prevented just from the display of a firearm. Ideally people will get better and more proficient as time goes by. But as a believer in the second amendment, I have to support these folks right to carry. If they are not unsafe in handling, then they're OK in my book.
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Old 03-06-2017, 9:57 AM
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I'm also worried about the lower standards for "qualification", that goes for LE as well. But where do you set the bar ?

Do you trust the instructor who green lighted them, to green light you ? I mean that calls them into question does it not ?
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:03 AM
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I've never done this qualification in CA, what does "in the box" mean in this context?
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:05 AM
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I think that we all support the 2nd Amendment here, no question.

But I must disagree with you on basic competency. If the skills that these people showed were at the same level during a driving test neither of them would have been able to get a license to operate a vehicle and yet they are allowed to be armed. In my mind their skill level, or lack thereof, could be a danger to the people around them and to themselves and to me, that is not acceptable. In many, many areas we all must show a good if not high levels of skill to obtain a license why should a CCW be any different at all. Would you want truckers who did not know the basics of driving and parking on the road or pilots who could only nail 1 out of 10 landings?

It's not like these people cannot go out and practice, there is a place for nearly everyone to shoot near them if they make the time. Just my opinion. I can only train myself to be competent, my hope is that others would want to do the same but that may not be the case.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:07 AM
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The 'box' was the area of the target they were supposed to hit that was probably 9" x 12" and they were standing at 3 yards.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:15 AM
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I shot my Shield I carry this weekend, and almost every shot was to the left of center.
My confidence with that pistol is a little bit shaken, but now I want more training, so that's not exactly a bad thing.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redpenny View Post
I think that we all support the 2nd Amendment here, no question.

But I must disagree with you on basic competency. If the skills that these people showed were at the same level during a driving test neither of them would have been able to get a license to operate a vehicle and yet they are allowed to be armed.
I hear you, and I wish all carriers were better prepared and qualified. But more than a few states require no permit at all to carry, and you don't hear a lot about problems with lesser skilled shooters.

And the constitution that sets this great country apart from all others doesn't say you have a right to drive. That is a privilege. But it does say you have the right to keep and bear arms. Full stop, no qualifiers. The people who wrote those words knew how important it was for even the weakest among us to be able to bear arms. That includes people with physical limitations, confined to a wheel chair, perhaps a person who has lost an arm, someone with Parkinson's, partially blind, or whatever. Deciding who gets that right is a slippery slope.


You are more likely to have a problem that does not involve shooting for accuracy. Plenty of law enforcement officers have shot themselves or even been shot by their kids, or had their kids shoot themselves - all with their carry firearm. Presumably these folks had no problem putting rounds in the box. I believe safe gun handling, and storage - is far and away more important than accuracy when it comes to a person who carries.

All we can hope is that everyone constantly strives to improve all facets of their carry life, from proficiency to safety. When we are given drivers or pilots licenses, we are reminded that they are a license to learn.
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  #9  
Old 03-06-2017, 10:17 AM
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Redpenny, I understand your concern. I too saw many different skill levels in my classes. There are so many facets to the CCW carry which include situational awareness, competency, legal rights of the shooter and the perpetrator, etc., etc. And then there is the factor of stress which the range does not simulate. Even a good shooter can look dangerous in a very stressful situation. No way to know unless tested.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redpenny View Post
I think that we all support the 2nd Amendment here, no question.

But I must disagree with you on basic competency. If the skills that these people showed were at the same level during a driving test neither of them would have been able to get a license to operate a vehicle and yet they are allowed to be armed. In my mind their skill level, or lack thereof, could be a danger to the people around them and to themselves and to me, that is not acceptable. In many, many areas we all must show a good if not high levels of skill to obtain a license why should a CCW be any different at all. Would you want truckers who did not know the basics of driving and parking on the road or pilots who could only nail 1 out of 10 landings?

It's not like these people cannot go out and practice, there is a place for nearly everyone to shoot near them if they make the time. Just my opinion. I can only train myself to be competent, my hope is that others would want to do the same but that may not be the case.
There in lies the rub and I mostly agree with you. I know some LEOs think they were somehow christened by God to wield the almighty gun, and we civilians should defer to their judgment. Many of us are former military, sport shooters and hunters with years of practice and application in excess of basic LEO training.

But, where to draw the line ?

Your instructor passed them and that sounds like a problem, but if a classroom of shooters doesn't call out this perceived deficiency what are we to do ?
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestargrizzly View Post
I shot my Shield I carry this weekend, and almost every shot was to the left of center.
My confidence with that pistol is a little bit shaken, but now I want more training, so that's not exactly a bad thing.
I had my Shield's front sight (I-dot pro) come loose on me and observed the same pattern. Used some red threadlocker on it and seems to be holding...

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  #12  
Old 03-06-2017, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by AtomicOrange View Post
I had my Shield's front sight (I-dot pro) come loose on me and observed the same pattern. Used some red threadlocker on it and seems to be holding...

Sent from my LG-P659 using Tapatalk
Mine is stock.
Had the RO shoot it and he grouped dead center.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:40 AM
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:00 AM
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I'm ok with an instructor helping someone get qualified, but I'd like to believe the session is followed by a debrief with, in some cases, a strong suggestion that they should get some instruction.

Even if they can't hit the broad side of a barn they should be able to handle the gun safely: draw, reholster, load, unload. The likelihood I'm going to be endangered by an unskilled CCW holder if even lower than the likelihood I'll need to use my concealed handgun.
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:08 AM
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This is the result of these pop-up instructors to meet the demands of Peruta. I see thousands of CCW applicants annually and for the most part, people get qualified "somewhere" and when they come to us, they wonder why they are struggling, or we have them shoot and re-qual as needed. We have disqualified people because of firearms failures as well as failing the shooting portion. We always offer them to take a class and then reshoot their qual once complete.
Basic firearms classes should be attended by all CCW applicants but its not required. The funny part is that 90% of firearms owners have the mentality that they are perfect just how they are. But on a square range shooting 1 round once every 5 seconds, its easy to see that.
Take an advanced pistol class. Shoot your pistol at the 100yd on steel and see the difference.
Shooting is a perishable skill. If you don't do it CORRECTLY and OFTEN then you aren't any good after a while..
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Old 03-06-2017, 9:45 PM
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Good thoughts from everyone. I would hope that just being involved with firearms would prompt people to come to forums like this and be motivated to be more proficient. Education seems to always be the key. Maybe if that message can get through we can both raise the degree of firearm ownership and raise the level of skill at the same time. I encourage everyone I meet that owns a gun to take classes and become more skilled. An armed and skilled populace will be much more effective if and when a time ever comes for action.
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:12 PM
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A right regardless of ability is still a right. If we didn't have these restrictions and anyone could carry. We'd know allot less who is a terrible shot and who is an expert shooter. We only see these things because our rights are being erroded and are required to prove ourselves. With that being said, a person who is incapable of shooting and likely to shoot a bystander. Would end up likely shot by a more capable person for doing so. In light of all that, I'll do my part and make sure I train and know my firearm well enough that I am capable of defending my family, my life and the innocent. May we all do our parts to make sure we succeed.

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Old 03-07-2017, 6:20 AM
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I recall a similar situation where the renewal applicant could not hit the broad side of a barn.

When the instructor was asked "You're not going to pass him are you?" He replied "He's a Judge".
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Old 03-07-2017, 7:42 AM
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I've seen renewal classes with the weak skilled also. I scratch my head and wonder too.

Renewal classes being much different than first quall classes the assumption is the shooter has already had firearms 101 or at least something that constitutes training.

I don't judge them, I just do my thing and get my paper signed.

Additionally I have had different instructors for each of the last 5 re-qualls and I got different teaching from each one. That doesn't help things either.

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Old 03-07-2017, 7:54 AM
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A collegue from work got his CA LTC before I did.

Never had a chance to shoot with him, so I had no idea of his level of competence.

When visiting his office recently we talked briefly about my current carry options and he asked to see my G43.

After I closed and locked his office door, I emptied my mag as well as the round in the chamber (in a safe direction) before handing him my carry piece to inspect.

He proceeded to sweep me repeatedly with the muzzle like he had never handled weapon before.

We continued to talk (after my blood pressure returned to normal) and

he admitted that he had allowed his LTC to lapse as his wife and son were uncomfortable with him carrying.

After this brief interaction, I stopped recommending that he renew his LTC...
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Old 03-07-2017, 2:20 PM
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I am torn on this issue as I have seen CCW qualifications where there have been multiple people that are incompetent with a handgun and actually a menace if they ever were to actually try to use it.

However, it is a constitutional right. Otherwise I'd prefer people be capable of doing at least an easy Bill drill, let's see maybe in 3 seconds (hands in surrender, draw and fire 6 shots at 7 yards all in the "box") or something similar.
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Old 03-07-2017, 3:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WB6HRO View Post
I recall a similar situation where the renewal applicant could not hit the broad side of a barn.

When the instructor was asked "You're not going to pass him are you?" He replied "He's a Judge".
No worries...he can bench rest his shots.
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Old 03-08-2017, 8:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redpenny View Post
The 'box' was the area of the target they were supposed to hit that was probably 9" x 12" and they were standing at 3 yards.
So roughly speaking, 10% hitting a sheet of std notebook paper at 10'.

That's pretty typical for people who don't shoot I guess, but I'd expect more from someone who took the time to get a CHL.
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Old 03-08-2017, 8:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cvigue View Post
So roughly speaking, 10% hitting a sheet of std notebook paper at 10'.

That's pretty typical for people who don't shoot I guess, but I'd expect more from someone who took the time to get a CHL.
They might be more effective if they just threw the gun at the assailant.
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Old 03-08-2017, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestargrizzly View Post
I shot my Shield I carry this weekend, and almost every shot was to the left of center.
My confidence with that pistol is a little bit shaken, but now I want more training, so that's not exactly a bad thing.
I was a 1911 shooter for 20+ years before I got my Shield 40.
After 3 boxes of ammo I was ready to sell it. I too was surprised, beweildered, disappointed, and embarrassed in myself for poor shooting with the Shield.

I then changed from my tip of the finger 1911 trigger pull, to using more of my finger to the first knuckle trigger pull, and BAM. I had all bullet holes touching, as I expected them to be.

Try a different finger position on the trigger.
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Old 03-08-2017, 9:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Lonestargrizzly View Post
Mine is stock.

Had the RO shoot it and he grouped dead center.

I'm guessing you haven't been practicing much lately or you just had a bad day.


Sent from my iPhone so typos to be expected.
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Old 03-08-2017, 10:15 AM
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I'm guessing you haven't been practicing much lately or you just had a bad day.


Sent from my iPhone so typos to be expected.
Hopefully it was just a bad day.
Who knows.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redpenny View Post
I think that we all support the 2nd Amendment here, no question.

But I must disagree with you on basic competency. If the skills that these people showed were at the same level during a driving test neither of them would have been able to get a license to operate a vehicle and yet they are allowed to be armed. In my mind their skill level, or lack thereof, could be a danger to the people around them and to themselves and to me, that is not acceptable. In many, many areas we all must show a good if not high levels of skill to obtain a license why should a CCW be any different at all. Would you want truckers who did not know the basics of driving and parking on the road or pilots who could only nail 1 out of 10 landings?

It's not like these people cannot go out and practice, there is a place for nearly everyone to shoot near them if they make the time. Just my opinion. I can only train myself to be competent, my hope is that others would want to do the same but that may not be the case.
A driver's license isn't protected under a Constitutional ammendment is it?

I DL is often clearly labled as a "privilege not a right".

Everybody started somewhere. Even tier one operators started somwhere.

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Old 03-08-2017, 12:45 PM
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These comments here illustrate the problem with most CA gun owners. Several states have constitutional carry, and here we have people discouraging other to get there carry permit.
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Old 03-08-2017, 1:02 PM
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Personally I believe the intrinsic right to self defense should allow a person to carry a weapon as they choose, but I also wish they would be moderately competent.

The first is a right, the second is just good judgement.
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Old 03-08-2017, 1:20 PM
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I am at work and cannot link the article from the Washington post. Its from a a couple years ago titled: The right to bear arms isn't up for debate by Charles CW Cooke.

There is a great quote in that article,

"Does everyone who uses a firearm to protect himself survive? Of course not. But as a free man, I do not consider my inalienable rights to be contingent upon my ability to exercise them successfully. I may debate freely, even if I am destined to lose the argument. I may enjoy a jury trial even if I am guilty. And I may defend my life and my liberty even if I eventually succumb."

Yes we should encourage everyone to seek training and education, but I do not think it is right to deny their human right to self defense just because they are bad at it.

Imagine this scenario. Your wife despises guns and refuses to train or touch them. One night you hear a sound and a home invader gets the drop on you. You are now held at knife point before you could reach your firearm. Luckily your wife woke up, grabbed your gun and now reversed the situation on the intruder. Will you say, "oh honey, you are not qualified on that handgun, put it down and let the nice man stab me." I think not.

Now you should probably reevaluate your previous judgments and rephrase your position.
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Old 03-08-2017, 6:02 PM
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It's one way or the other. Is concealed carry a Constitutional right or is open carry a Constitutional right? It is one way or the other.

Seems to me that the 9th Circuit has painted itself into a corner.

The right to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed seems pretty straightforward to me.
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Old 03-10-2017, 9:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestargrizzly View Post
Mine is stock.
Had the RO shoot it and he grouped dead center.
Just sounds like you need to practice more! I was having the same problem and figured out I was giving it too much trigger finger.

Sounds like a good excuse to get down to the range!
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Old 03-12-2017, 2:52 PM
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Originally Posted by alarconedward83 View Post
These comments here illustrate the problem with most CA gun owners. Several states have constitutional carry, and here we have people discouraging other to get there carry permit.

THIS X1000000000000
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Old 03-13-2017, 9:42 AM
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Its an individual thing. You want to carry do so and you are responsible for the outcome.

The mere presence of a firearm tends to deescalate a situation. However you do not want to be a dead good guy with a loaded Sig in your possession.

Good luck and stay safe my friends.
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Old 03-13-2017, 1:43 PM
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...The mere presence of a firearm tends to deescalate a situation. ...
I'd disagree. If I were having an argument with someone and they brandished a firearm "to deescalate" I'd treat it as a deadly threat, and act accordingly.
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Old 03-13-2017, 2:16 PM
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I'd disagree. If I were having an argument with someone and they brandished a firearm "to deescalate" I'd treat it as a deadly threat, and act accordingly.
I would disagree with your disagreement. I think it entirely depends on the situation. Depends on why you are arguing. How threatening and upset are you that would cause the other party to reveal a handgun.

If by act accordingly, you mean shoot them with your own gun? And by brandish you mean they drew on you, or just moved their coat to show you they are also armed?

A few outcomes per scenario I see happening. If they already have the gun in their hand, you are dead. Can you draw and fire before they notice you drawing? They are probably looking right at you with gun in hand, so they shoot first you lose. Or you choose not to draw, talk it over with them and they reholster. Hopefully situation contained and you can talk to the cops about them brandishing later. Or they reholseter and you shoot, now you go to jail because they were no longer a threat when they reholstered.

If they just move their coat, they are not a threat. They are just telling you to choose your next words carefully. I do not agree that it is always a good idea to give up tactical info like how one is armed, but some people do it and it works out. IF you shoot them for exposing a holstered handgun, you go to jail.

I have a friend that got into an argument in a parking structure over parking. The other party drew a folding knife from his pocket but didn't open it, leaving his arm by his side. My friend then casually drew his gun, not pointing it, leaving his arm casually by his side. They other party now seeing they brought a knife to a gun fight and being on the other side of the car, began to voluntarily deescalate.
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  #38  
Old 03-13-2017, 3:02 PM
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But I must disagree with you on basic competency. If the skills that these people showed were at the same level during a driving test neither of them would have been able to get a license to operate a vehicle and yet they are allowed to be armed. In my mind their skill level, or lack thereof, could be a danger to the people around them and to themselves and to me, that is not acceptable. In many, many areas we all must show a good if not high levels of skill to obtain a license why should a CCW be any different at all. Would you want truckers who did not know the basics of driving and parking on the road or pilots who could only nail 1 out of 10 landings?
I'm all for training, and I try to get as much as possible, from different instructors. I hold myself to a standard that I establish for myself, and try to keep up the training necessary to do so. Carrying a firearm for self defense is a deeply personal matter, and one person's comfort level is not necessarily the same as another's. Because of this, and because safe firearm operation has a much lower threshold of competency in relation to safety, I don't think the analogy to driving, truck drivers, or pilots works.

For example, even if I can't hit anything at 7 yards, I might still be able to depend upon a firearm for "bad breath distance" encounters taking place within a few feet. If I set personal limits to not engage targets that are outside my limits and don't go outside my personal sphere of comfort. The very purpose of trucks and airplanes is to get from one location to another, and incidental to that purpose, there are a whole host of skills that must be performed continuously and competently in order to maintain safety. These foundational skills like driving in a straight line, changing lanes, etc. are more akin to the four basic rules, how to rack the slide, how to detach a magazine, how to reload a magazine, etc. In the driving/flying context, there is no corresponding skill enhancement that depends on travel distance - you need to know how to do them whether you're driving 500 yards or 500 miles on a public road.

With guns, skills that are more that adequate for short distance targets may be utterly inadequate for long distance targets. Surely, we should all strive to extend that sphere of competence, if but some people are fine with limitations, then who am I to say?

Bottom line, so long as I know my limits, and depend upon the firearm in only a certain limited circumstances that are within my limits of competency, I'm not endangering anyone, even with a lesser skill set.
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Old 03-13-2017, 4:32 PM
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My requal target with a Shield.. 10 yards I think.. Was doing the quick draw with two to the chest or two to chest and one to head deals.. timed.. was sorta fun.

Anyways, I saw some really bad shots as well, but they were failed if they missed the target more than three times.. or if the gun jammed more than three times (then that gun was failed)..

Nobody wants to practice.. they've seen Lethal Weapon 2 like a dozen times so they know how it all works.

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  #40  
Old 03-14-2017, 1:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ECG_88 View Post
...

If they just move their coat, they are not a threat. They are just telling you to choose your next words carefully. ...
Even the penal code says the above is a threat, hence the law against brandishment.

My view on the above is that the guy is saying "I have a gun and will use it". However, I do not know "which words" will cause him to use it, so I'd consider my life in danger at that point. Not to mention if a guy is provoked enough by words to start brandishing guns etc., he is not that stable to start with.
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