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Non-California Permits/Licenses For out of State License/Permit discussion |
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#1321
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#1322
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#1323
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If you read the code, there is "or reasonable notice prohibiting entry" in the trespassing definition.
https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?...s/13/01502.htm I have yet to find any exemption for CCW for private establishments, similar to how public events/places need to offer secure storage is they disallow firearms. |
#1324
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One of several "affirmative defenses" is if you are not a resident of AZ at the time of the trespass. Another has to do with how long the sign has been posted... basically, the validity of the sign does not take effect for 30 or 60 days (it's been a while since I read it)... This keeps someone from getting pinched when they are a regular patron and legally carried "yesterday" BUT.... and yes, it's a big butt.... "Affirmative Defense" means just that. It means you are still arrested, arraigned, and possibly scheduled for trial unless the DA tosses the case due to the affirmative defense. It's possibly a "stay out of prison" card, but it is not a "get out of jail free" card and it's not guaranteed that the defense will be accepted. Even as a non-resident, if the DA goes through your social media history and sees that you have visited the Roadkill Cafe twice a year for the last 5 years, and you've previously posted pictures of the "no guns" sign, you're going to have a hard time.
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- Rich |
#1325
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Can you provide the ARS numbers for this? I can't find anything. Maybe I am not searching correctly. I like to have links to the applicable parts of law for where I travel.
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#1326
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4-229 covers CCW specifically: https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?...rs/4/00229.htm Quote:
A simple "no guns allowed" sign is not sufficient. It must have a pictogram, red circle and slash, and cite 4-229 To my recollection, the one on the door to the Roadkill Cafe was just a black laser printed sheet, no red. Last time I was there, the front door did not have one. I saw one on the rear door when I used the restroom... the sign was on outside and just taped to the glass. I would say, though it is not worded specifically, but due to the separation, that both 1 and 2 must be the case, i.e. 2 is satisfied by not being a resident, however, having seen the sign, 1 is not satisfied since the sign itself and/or my knowledge of the sign serve as notice. Assuming it is a legal sign in the first place.
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- Rich |
#1327
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But that is specific to places that sell alcohol is it not? So a hardware store or tire shop or department store are still off limits if posted.
From 4-101: Quote:
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#1328
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Good catch.
I can't find it anywhere else in the code, and all of the apps that I've checked all reference 4-229. Legal Heat cites 4-229 under the "prohibited places/alcohol" section, but under that after listing other locations it references posted locations but does not cite the section. CCW only lists the text of the section
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- Rich |
#1329
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#1331
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There are size requirements but only related to alcohol related establishments per that title. Nothing in the regular code, just "reasonable notice"
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#1332
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So, does a hand-written sign in the upper corner of the door of a cinvience store, on an 8.5"x11" paper, only saying "No Weapons Allowed on Premises" have force of law?
This is in AZ. Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk |
#1333
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No, however, if they find out your are carrying they can ask you to leave and you must leave asap or you risk being cited fot criminal trespass. Concealed is concealed and they should never know you are carrying!
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"Life Is Hard. It's Harder When You're Stupid"-John Wayne! "Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder"-Michael Savage! "The Object of Life Is Not To Be On The Side Of The Majority, But To Escape Finding Oneself In The Ranks Of The Insane"-Marcus Aurelius! "Dr. Thomas Sowell Is A National Treasure"-Big Jake! |
#1334
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FWIW, I haven't seen very many of those signs in AZ and I spend a fair amount of time there. To be fair I'm rarely in PHX or Tucson, maybe it's more common there.
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Buy made in USA whenever possible. |
#1335
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Last trip to visit my parents, I saw a grand total of one 30-07 sign on a gas station in Texas south of Fort Worth (30-07 is no open carry), and the only sign that we saw in AZ was on the back door to the Roadkill Cafe.
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- Rich |
#1336
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Kind of ironic in a way, it kind of seems like Seligman is the last place you'd see one.
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Buy made in USA whenever possible. |
#1337
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I had seen the signs (on both doors) for years, even when they were only an open carry state. Last year, we parked on the "ghost town" side and there was no sign on the door. COOL! I thought. Ya, saw the one on the outside of the door by the motel when I used the restroom.
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- Rich |
#1338
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I've seen the incorrect signs here and there. At a restaurant in Phoenix, a gas station off the 10 like in Quartzite, and a mall in like Phoenix. Generally I just choose to not patronize such bsuinesses.
Saw it once at a movie theater and I left without going in. This may get awkward when I move to AZ permanently and start dating. In Nevada where the signs do not have force of law I just ignore them if need be. I actually don't see them often in NV. The casinos I mainly go to don't have them but one does tape up signs during the Laughlin River Run. |
#1339
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Obviously you have to be found to be carrying a firearm for the business to even know. Are you automatically going to be charged and arrested, probably not. You will likely just be asked to leave. But if an employee saw you had a weapon, theoretically they could call the cops and you could be arrested/ticketed without the business making contact with you about it at all. |
#1340
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#1341
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I've seen the incorrect signs at on sale retailers of alcohol as mentioned. The restaurant had booze. The gas station sold it but obviously not for on site consumption and no hard liquor.
Anyways how do you all handle it? I generally try not to give such places business. |
#1343
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Where is the other section of the statute that applies to businesses other than those selling alcohol?
4-229 refers to sellers of alcohol. 13-1502 defines criminal trespass, but does not reference firearms. It simply has the vague "or reasonable notice prohibiting entry", which I would assume to be a general "No Trespassing", "Sorry, we are closed", or "Private Property" sign or similar.
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- Rich |
#1344
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However, it I suppose it depends on how "reasonable notice" is defined. "Reasonable" as in "no purple jackets" being unreasonable, or "reasonable" as in "in plain view and language visible prior to entry". handgunlaw.us includes comment about the "reasonable notice" in it's "Do signs carry the weight of law" section. I assume they have similar view. Would any of this stick and you actually be charged, unlikely. However it would probably result in you losing your permit if its reported |
#1346
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We went and ate in a restaurant on the way out I saw that they had a sign with the Red Cross out over the gun it was about 2 inches small . I guess I must have missed it… What is the penalty? |
#1347
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Concealed is concealed, right?
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#1353
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Question about this part:
C. It is an affirmative defense to a violation of subsection B of this section if: 1. The person was not informed of the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section before the violation. 2. Any one or more of the following apply: (a) At the time of the violation the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section had fallen down. (b) At the time of the violation the person was not a resident of this state. (c) The licensee had posted the notice prescribed in subsection A of this section not more than thirty days before the violation. Does this mean you can affirmatively defend violation of the posted sign if you are NOT a resident of the state? As in "hey I didn't know, I'm not from Arizona, I will leave your establishment now"... no harm no foul? |
#1354
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Keep in mind that "affirmative defense" when codified within the law is not a "get out of jail free" card or exemption from the law. It is what it says it is. It is an affirmative defense. The same as in California, if someone breaks into your home and you kill them, it is an affirmative defense that you were in reasonable fear for your life if there are signs of forced entry. To actually USE the affirmative defense implies arrest, charge, and trial. It may also not be viewed favorably or accepted by the jury if you hold an AZ CCW, because signing the application includes the claim that you have read the applicable APS codes, therefore, you can not say that you were unaware of the law as you would be able to if you were carrying under Constitutional Carry without a permit.
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- Rich |
#1356
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NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller Ventura County approved CCW Instructor Utah CCW Instructor Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners. CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE KM6WLV |
#1357
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The statutes really are written around someone who is carrying under CC, or under an out of state CCW. And "affirmative defense" doesn't even come into play until you are before a judge and jury.
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- Rich |
#1359
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Good to know. Thanks.
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#1360
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Well, finally got up off of my *** and requested an application from AZ. Not sure why I waitied so long...
My IA lists 3 pistols on my CA permit. I assume AZ's is different? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk Last edited by Jason25; 07-14-2018 at 10:46 AM.. |
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