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  #1  
Old 08-08-2014, 3:06 PM
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Default Pro-Carry Banks?

Would you Sac folk happen to know of any pro-carry banks that I could store my hard earned money in?

I love my CU, but just found out that they are in the process of placing "no firearms" signs at their doors.

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 08-08-2014, 3:10 PM
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What CU?

I carry in all the banks & CU that I have business with.....they don't ask and I don't tell.

Wouldn't care if they did stick a sign on it....that's why it's called CCW...
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Old 08-08-2014, 3:15 PM
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Sac CCW Policy respects businesses and their rights to not allow firearms. This also applies to off duty Deputies IIRC.

It is a matter of integrity and meeting the guidelines of your IA and not risking the loss of your license.

My bank is Safe CU.

Last edited by code_blue; 08-08-2014 at 3:22 PM..
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Old 08-12-2014, 7:42 AM
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I've never seen no gun signs at Schools CU.
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Old 08-12-2014, 8:43 AM
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(Permit invalid if violated)
• While exercising the permit and carrying a weapon, no alcohol consumption is permitted.
• No permitted weapon is allowed where weapons are prohibited by law.
No permitted weapon is allowed at locations where a sign is posted prohibiting weapons.
• The Sheriff may impose additional restrictions.
• During any law enforcement contact, you are required to disclose your status as a CCW permit holder and you must disclose whether or not you are carrying a weapon on your person or in your vehicle.


So let me get this straight. ANY WHERE..... a sign is posted prohibiting weapons.... you aren't legally allowed to be carrying.... what if people start putting up signs everywhere?
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kjv146 View Post
(Permit invalid if violated)
• While exercising the permit and carrying a weapon, no alcohol consumption is permitted.
• No permitted weapon is allowed where weapons are prohibited by law.
No permitted weapon is allowed at locations where a sign is posted prohibiting weapons.
• The Sheriff may impose additional restrictions.
• During any law enforcement contact, you are required to disclose your status as a CCW permit holder and you must disclose whether or not you are carrying a weapon on your person or in your vehicle.

So let me get this straight. ANY WHERE..... a sign is posted prohibiting weapons.... you aren't legally allowed to be carrying.... what if people start putting up signs everywhere?

That's the way that I read it. If your permit is not valid in areas where a sign is posted prohibiting firearms, then you are illegally carrying according to the IA.

I don't know if you will be arrested, but you will likely lose your permit and any future chance of getting another. This is, of course, if you knowingly carried regardless of the sign.
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Old 08-13-2014, 6:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
Would you Sac folk happen to know of any pro-carry banks that I could store my hard earned money in?

I love my CU, but just found out that they are in the process of placing "no firearms" signs at their doors.

Thanks
You are a member of the credit union. Have you advised them that a CCW should be exempted in the same manner as schools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
Sac CCW Policy respects businesses and their rights to not allow firearms. This also applies to off duty Deputies IIRC.
Why would this apply to off-duty Sheriff deputies? They operate under the auspices of the Sheriff (but not under a CCW license) and carry to either fulfill their law enforcement functions or to protect themselves if they are identified as LEO and someone green lights them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
I don't know if you will be arrested, but you will likely lose your permit and any future chance of getting another. This is, of course, if you knowingly carried regardless of the sign.
The policy doesn't appear to require any "knowing" on the part of the carrier. I always "knowingly" carry, but even if I don't know there is signage, I am in violation.

Last edited by Dvrjon; 08-13-2014 at 7:05 PM..
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Old 08-13-2014, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by kjv146 View Post
(Permit invalid if violated)
• While exercising the permit and carrying a weapon, no alcohol consumption is permitted.
• No permitted weapon is allowed where weapons are prohibited by law.
• No permitted weapon is allowed at locations where a sign is posted prohibiting weapons.
• The Sheriff may impose additional restrictions.
• During any law enforcement contact, you are required to disclose your status as a CCW permit holder and you must disclose whether or not you are carrying a weapon on your person or in your vehicle.


So let me get this straight. ANY WHERE..... a sign is posted prohibiting weapons.... you aren't legally allowed to be carrying.... what if people start putting up signs everywhere?
My Sacramento county permit does not say anything about locations with signs prohibiting weapons???
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  #9  
Old 08-13-2014, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by finsfan21 View Post
My Sacramento county permit does not say anything about locations with signs prohibiting weapons???
Read page 2 of the Sac Sheriff policy.....(1st paragraph, 3d bullet) http://www.sacsheriff.com/Pages/Orga...cw_process.pdf
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  #10  
Old 08-13-2014, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
You are a member of the credit union. Have you advised them that a CCW should be exempted in the same manner as schools?

Yes, I have. It is thier business policy and they will stand by it, although they have yet to produce the actual policy for me to see.

Why would this apply to off-duty Sheriff deputies? They operate under the auspices of the Sheriff (but not under a CCW license) and carry to either fulfill their law enforcement functions or to protect themselves if they are identified as LEO and someone green lights them.

Agency policy. The same reasons why some LEO cannot carry to other places of business such as theme parks and movie theaters... It is the policy of the business and off duty LE can be restricted. Another example of LE restriction is LEOSA not allowing off duty LE to carry around school zones, however a CCW holder can.

The policy doesn't appear to require any "knowing" on the part of the carrier. I always "knowingly" carry, but even if I don't know there is signage, I am in violation.

Agreed, however knowing and disregarding the wishes of the business will likely hold more "evil" over simply not seeing a tiny sign behind the counter of a business.


Anyways, we're getting completely off topic now. I have not received an answer to my inquiry. I'm guessing that every Sacramento CGN member either carries regardless or stores stacks of cash in their safe.

Last edited by code_blue; 08-23-2014 at 10:24 PM..
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  #11  
Old 08-18-2014, 10:42 AM
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....what sign....
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  #12  
Old 08-23-2014, 4:09 PM
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I'm glad I found this thread. I like banking with SAFE CU, but if what the OP said is true I will be finding another CU to bank with that is not anti. I was in the bank just this morning and did not spot a "no guns" sign, as I always check before entering a business. I check every time no matter how many times I frequent a particular business. OP where did you get the info regarding their change in policy? FYI I usually use the branch near 65th and Folsom Blvd, but I do use others in Sac, El dorado, and placer counties. On another side note I know that Target is anti-carry now but I couldn't for the life of me spot a sign near their entrance. The target in reference is the one on 65th street.
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  #13  
Old 08-23-2014, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Read page 2 of the Sac Sheriff policy.....(1st paragraph, 3d bullet) http://www.sacsheriff.com/Pages/Orga...cw_process.pdf
Unless I'm mistaken, California CCW Penal Code states that all restrictions must be printed ON the CCW License itself...
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foul Ball View Post
I'm glad I found this thread. I like banking with SAFE CU, but if what the OP said is true I will be finding another CU to bank with that is not anti. I was in the bank just this morning and did not spot a "no guns" sign, as I always check before entering a business. I check every time no matter how many times I frequent a particular business. OP where did you get the info regarding their change in policy? FYI I usually use the branch near 65th and Folsom Blvd, but I do use others in Sac, El dorado, and placer counties. On another side note I know that Target is anti-carry now but I couldn't for the life of me spot a sign near their entrance. The target in reference is the one on 65th street.
Ya know, I like SCU a lot also. Honestly I haven't seen any signs for any businesses that I've ever walked into including ones that are known to be corporately anti-firearms.

I am starting to believe that these businesses tell us that they are anti, yet do not post signs up for PC purposes to please both sides. It's like they're purposely staying in the "neutral" zone.

For SCU, I was told by one of their online customer service people when I asked about off duty LE carrying. I've also gone in to different branches since the start of this thread and still no signs of anti anywhere. Even the main branch which is directly across the street from The Gun Range didn't have one that I could find lol.

Until I see a sign or have been requested to leave because the business owner somehow realized that I was a holder and didn't want me there, I'll continue to carry in to these places because it is, to my understanding, legal to do so.
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by quiet-wyatt View Post
Unless I'm mistaken, California CCW Penal Code states that all restrictions must be printed ON the CCW License itself...
This?

26200. (a) A license issued pursuant to this article may include
any reasonable restrictions or conditions that the issuing authority
deems warranted, including restrictions as to the time, place,
manner, and circumstances under which the licensee may carry a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person.
(b) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (a) shall be
indicated on any license issued.



I personally don't see that as being a mandate to print on the permit. I believe that you accepting the restrictions by signing the application is sufficient.
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  #16  
Old 08-24-2014, 7:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
This?

26200. (a) A license issued pursuant to this article may include
any reasonable restrictions or conditions that the issuing authority
deems warranted, including restrictions as to the time, place,
manner, and circumstances under which the licensee may carry a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person.
(b) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (a) shall be
indicated on any license issued.



I personally don't see that as being a mandate to print on the permit. I believe that you accepting the restrictions by signing the application is sufficient.
" (b) Any restrictions imposed pursuant to subdivision (a) shall be
indicated on any license issued."

"SHALL" is used, so yes - mandated...
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Old 08-24-2014, 8:46 AM
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What I'm saying is that I don't see it is mandated to physically be printed on the actual permit. The restrictions are listed on the application itself and you sign the document stating that you understand and accept the restrictions. I believe that portion is sufficient and covers the PC.

I can easily see that being articulated if one attempted to challenge the lack of physical print on our already large sized permits.

EDIT:

Adding additional info after looking at my permit, it currently has printed:

"Not valid if consuming alcohol or remaining at any establishment that primarily serves alcohol.
If contacted by law enforcement and carrying a concealed weapon, you must advise the officer of the presence of a firearm either on your person or otherwise present."

There are 2 additional lines for "Restrictions (if any)" however they are blank.

Anyone else with recent permits have the same?

Last edited by code_blue; 08-24-2014 at 8:54 AM..
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  #18  
Old 08-24-2014, 8:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
What I'm saying is that I don't see it is mandated to physically be printed on the actual permit.
But that is exactly what subsection (b) is saying: It needs to be ON THE LICENSE...
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Old 08-24-2014, 9:57 AM
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What I believe it comes down to is that they see a CCW as a privilege. With that being the case the sheriff can pull a permit for no reason. I personally will follow the restrictions either printed on the permit or not and not give my business to establishments that don't want firearms in their business. If an incident were to occur where contact were made with LE in one of these establishments and it gets back to your IA what ground do we have to stand on when all the power is in the IA's hand? It's unfortunate and not right and until we can change it, it is what we have to deal with.
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Old 08-30-2014, 4:08 PM
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Wish I could help, but I don't have LTC yet, and haven't paid attention. I rarely go inside a bank branch these days anyway.
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Old 08-31-2014, 6:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiet-wyatt View Post
Unless I'm mistaken, California CCW Penal Code states that all restrictions must be printed ON the CCW License itself...
You may be mistaken. Penal Code says that any restrictions applied by the IA must be on the license. (See your earlier post).

But before the license gets issued, the application provides restrictions on the license "at birth". These are:
Quote:
While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license, the licensee shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
• Consume any alcoholic beverage.
• Be in a place having a primary purpose of dispensing alcoholic beverages for on-site consumption.
• Be under the influence of any medication or drug, whether prescribed or not.
• Refuse to show the license or surrender the concealed weapon to any peace officer upon demand.
• Impede any peace officer in the performance of his/her duties.
• Present himself/herself as a peace officer to any person unless he/she is, in fact, a peace officer as defined by
California law.
• Unjustifiably display a concealed weapon.
• Carry a concealed weapon not listed on the permit.
• Carry a concealed weapon at times or circumstances other than those specified in the permit.
Note, they do not contain a "signage" prohibition.

In Sacramento, that occurs in the Sheriff's policy, which I pointed out. It is not a restriction from the application, nor is it on the license as a specific restriction (the Sac Sheriff has two of those, as noted in other posts, so he knows that including restrictions on the license is a requirement).

So, what's the purpose? The Sac Sheriff, although not specifically prohibiting carry in signed areas, is telling you not to do it, and if he becomes aware of it, he may pull your license. Is it statutorily articulated? No. That just means you can't be arrested for it. Is it executed under the statutory provisions of PC? No. But so what? He's just sharing his policy with us. Do I think it sucks? Yup. But I also like him a lot more than our Yolo County neighbor.

So, what to do? For me, I'm old and I simply stopped looking for and reading signs on buildings.
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Old 08-31-2014, 6:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anbu_yoshi View Post
What I'm saying is that I don't see it is mandated to physically be printed on the actual permit. The restrictions are listed on the application itself and you sign the document stating that you understand and accept the restrictions.
And the application does not apply an "at birth" restriction on the license which prohibits carry in signed areas. (see application prohibitions in previous post).

The Sac Sheriff knows he has to put the restriction ON THE LICENSE because he has done that for the alcohol and LEO notification issues.
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Old 08-31-2014, 6:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
You may be mistaken. Penal Code says that any restrictions applied by the IA must be on the license. (See your earlier post).
So... You say I may be mistaken, but then confirm what I said in my earlier post...???

I agree that the IA may pull the license for any reason - I was pointing out what the Penal Code states...
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Old 08-31-2014, 7:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiet-wyatt View Post
So... You say I may be mistaken, but then confirm what I said in my earlier post...???

I agree that the IA may pull the license for any reason - I was pointing out what the Penal Code states...
You are usually more incisive than this. You said ALL restrictions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by quiet-wyatt View Post
Unless I'm mistaken, California CCW Penal Code states that all restrictions must be printed ON the CCW License itself...
I'm saying the Penal code requires only those restrictions placed by individual IAs be shown on the license. If you read the chunk of code you posted, (PC 26200) you will agree.

However, there are additional restrictions which are put in place by the Application and are NOT printed on the license. These are restrictions "at birth" of the license. (See the wiki at http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Ca...tions_on_carry)
Quote:
A case in Sacramento resolved in 2014 tells us that violating the terms listed on the application will result in invalidating the license, subjecting the carrier to arrest and prosecution for concealed and loaded carry in public.
Best.
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Old 09-04-2014, 8:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Read page 2 of the Sac Sheriff policy.....(1st paragraph, 3d bullet) http://www.sacsheriff.com/Pages/Orga...cw_process.pdf
If it's not printed on the actual permit and there's no law against it then it is unenforceable per state law.

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Old 09-04-2014, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDay View Post
If it's not printed on the actual permit and there's no law against it then it is unenforceable per state law.

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That was clear from post 21.
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Old 09-04-2014, 8:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiet-wyatt View Post
Unless I'm mistaken, California CCW Penal Code states that all restrictions must be printed ON the CCW License itself...
not true, most of the restrictions are built into the standard state DOJ ccw application used by all counties.

additional restrictions can be added by individual IA
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Old 09-21-2014, 1:05 AM
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SIGNS do NOT mean anything. They can ask you to leave! Thats it! You are LAWFULLY carrying and NOT breaking the law. TOYS-R-US has that sign and I carry there EVERYDAY and the manager knows it and thinks it's funny! He's X-Military! If your CCW'd then nobody knows and your safe! CONCEALED means just that, NOT VISIBLE and NOT NOTICEABLE! Respect businesses that do not want them and NEVER protect them! LOL... I can tell you I will NEVER intervene at a business which prohibits me carrying! I will observe and watch the bad guy take of the money!
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Old 09-21-2014, 2:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oops... View Post
SIGNS do NOT mean anything. They can ask you to leave! Thats it! You are LAWFULLY carrying and NOT breaking the law. TOYS-R-US has that sign and I carry there EVERYDAY and the manager knows it and thinks it's funny! He's X-Military! If your CCW'd then nobody knows and your safe! CONCEALED means just that, NOT VISIBLE and NOT NOTICEABLE! Respect businesses that do not want them and NEVER protect them! LOL... I can tell you I will NEVER intervene at a business which prohibits me carrying! I will observe and watch the bad guy take of the money!
My county still does not issue (Santa Clara). But I agree with this. ^^^^
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  #30  
Old 09-21-2014, 5:42 AM
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Originally Posted by oops... View Post
SIGNS do NOT mean anything. They can ask you to leave! Thats it! You are LAWFULLY carrying and NOT breaking the law.
Although this thread initially focused on banks, the drift has become much wider. A wholesale statement that signs don't mean anything is false. They do mean something when posted at federal buildings, post offices, the VA, and various State Capitol buildings and grounds and some statewide offices. The statutes say you will be charged with a crime if carrying in those places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oops... View Post
I can tell you I will NEVER intervene at a business which prohibits me carrying! I will observe and watch the bad guy take of the money!
And since you are neither a law enforcement officer nor charged with the security of that business, non-intervention is the correct response. The question is whether you would intervene if the bad guy started shooting or just looked like he would start shooting. Would your alleged non-intervention policy cause you to lose your life or the life of a loved one?

Just something to ponder.

Best.
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Old 09-23-2014, 12:59 AM
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I bank with chase. They have no signs and no one in the branch by me knows of them having a policy against it
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Old 09-23-2014, 8:18 AM
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Chase is nationally anti carry/firearm. Websearch will show various examples.

Not that it should matter unless they are grossly being prejudice or violating your 14th amendment rights.

A bank is a bank that stores my money. They don't need to know that I hold a license and whether or not I am carrying at that moment is not their business.
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  #33  
Old 09-27-2014, 9:40 AM
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In Placer Co. there is a addendum to the permit that must be carried with the permit at all times and must be surrendered with your permit. It states:

Placer County CCW Permit Holders shall not, when carrying a weapon:
> Consume any alcoholic beverage
> Commit any criminal act. You must report any arrest to the PCSO CCW Coordinator within 10 days
> Be in a place of having a primary purpose of selling alcohol
> Be under the influence of any medication, drug or alcohol
> Use any illegal drug
> Refuse to show permit or surrender weapon to law enforcement upon request
> Represent self as a peace officer to any person, if not so employed
> Possess weapon any place where prohibited by law or sign
> Unjustifiably display weapon
> Carry a concealed weapon not listed on your permit
> Fail to disclose during any law enforcement contact your status as a CCW permit holder. You must disclose whether or not you are carrying a weapon on your person on in your vehicle.

Not sure since this is not on the actual permit is these apply but I do comply with this list of restrictions as part of my CCW.
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Old 09-27-2014, 3:28 PM
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There's very little point in arguing with any Sheriff about the fine points of CCW laws. Realistically, what they say, goes. Maybe not right, certainly not good, but that's the way it is. In Sacramento, it's physically impossible to fit all the detailed rules on a 3x3 piece of paper. The REAL rules are on the Sheriff's website, or you can get them on paper if you prefer.

If you want to argue with your local Sheriff about it, be sure that you want to win enough that you're willing to bet your license. And plan to lose.

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  #35  
Old 09-27-2014, 8:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
the drift has become much wider.
It usually does.

Quote:
Would your alleged non-intervention policy cause you to lose your life or the life of a loved one?
Or some other innocent person that had nothing to do with the policy, and might not have even known about it?
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Old 10-14-2014, 1:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Although this thread initially focused on banks, the drift has become much wider. A wholesale statement that signs don't mean anything is false. They do mean something when posted at federal buildings, post offices, the VA, and various State Capitol buildings and grounds and some statewide offices. The statutes say you will be charged with a crime if carrying in those places.


And since you are neither a law enforcement officer nor charged with the security of that business, non-intervention is the correct response. The question is whether you would intervene if the bad guy started shooting or just looked like he would start shooting. Would your alleged non-intervention policy cause you to lose your life or the life of a loved one?

Just something to ponder.

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Post office etc... signs do not mean jack! There is LAW that prevents CCW and LEO from carrying etc... As far as the loss of life, I made the comment on $$$ and watching the bad guy taking the $$$, nothing about him shooting and me protecting a life, as I WOULD ALWAYS PROTECT AN INNOCENT LIFE!
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Old 10-14-2014, 5:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oops... View Post
Post office etc... signs do not mean jack!
Wow,this person has a CCW? Pete
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Old 10-14-2014, 7:40 AM
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Unless Federal, signs on private property have no force of law. If somehow you are negligent and someone outs you, you may be asked to leave. If you don't leave you can be charged with trespassing and then you are up a creek.
Concealed means concealed

Last edited by thomashoward; 10-14-2014 at 11:49 AM..
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  #39  
Old 10-14-2014, 7:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oops... View Post
Post office etc... signs do not mean jack! There is LAW that prevents CCW and LEO from carrying etc...
Law enforcement can carry in post offices for official purposes (CFR 39 section 232.1(l).
Quote:
(l) Weapons and explosives. Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.
Federal regulations (CFR 39 section 232.1(a)) also require,
Quote:
(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property.
That's a sign.

For federal facilities in general, 18 USC section 930 applies, and contains:
Quote:
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
So, local law enforcement can also carry in federal buildings

And:
Quote:
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.
So, you see, signs do mean things (they also mean "jack"), and are, in fact, required by some statutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oops... View Post
As far as the loss of life, I made the comment on $$$ and watching the bad guy taking the $$$, nothing about him shooting and me protecting a life, as I WOULD ALWAYS PROTECT AN INNOCENT LIFE!
I know that Sac Sheriff accepts "self-defense" as Good Cause, but did not realize they now accept "protecting the innocent".

Since you've already thought this through and figured this out, what's your response when you are at the store, standing by watching bad guys take the money, then grab a hostage and prepare to kill that innocent? Oh, your family is standing next to you, and any move by you will draw fire on them (they are, we presume, also innocent). Which innocent life do you protect/endanger?

It's a rhetorical question not needing a response, here. But, you may find this issue more complex than simply typing capital letters on the Internet.

Best.
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Old 10-14-2014, 8:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomashoward View Post
unless Federal, signs have no force of law. If somehow you are negligent and someone outs you, you may be asked to leave. If you don't leave you can be charged with trespassing and then you are up a creek.
Concealed means concealed
Sir, Please read CA Penal Code 171c. And 171.7. You will find statutory prohibitions for the carrying of weapons. You will find some of these prohibitions have exemptions for CCW and some do not. If a sign is posted to advise people of the existence of these provisions, the sign has the "force of law".

You may also want to recognize that non-federal courthouses also may have signs prohibiting firearms. These, too, have the "force of law". Airports

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