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FFL's Forum For open discussion between FFLs and polite questions for FFLs. |
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#81
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#82
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If they are making a lot of cash off people who have no choice but to use them, and would have no use for the service otherwise, because of a stupid law, then it's pretty asinine for them to complain that they can't get even more money from another government mandated scheme.
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I do not provide legal services or practice law (yet). The troublemaker formerly known as Blackwater OPS. |
#83
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Second, I am willing to be a transfer only dealer doesn't have normal business hours and are by appointment only. How many people call up an appointment only transfer dealer and ask to schedule a PPT? I bet very few and even if they do, schedule it for the same time as a normal transfer and look at it as a loss leader. Again, we don't do a lot of PPTs. So we don't complain about PPTs. Just look at doing PPTs as the same as having to write a new good cause letter for your Large Capacity Magazine Permit every year. Just part of the time spent maintaining your license.
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www.tenpercentfirearms.com was open from 2005 until 2018. I now own Westside Arms. |
#84
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BTW, 10 minutes for a PPT is a joke and misses many aspects. The firearm has to be logged into the bound book, the firearm marked and stored, then when the person comes back the firearm has to be found and the rest of the paperwork finished, then the bound book has to be updated and all the paperwork filed. Often you need to copy the drivers license and other documentation as well. it also assumes that you can be rude to the person and force them to quickly do all the paperwork and not talk at all. In other words, 10 minutes to do a PPT is not real when you include everything involved.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#85
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#86
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#87
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also if they did not take custody they would not need to have it on their bound books they should just have to do the background check on the buyer ppt needs reform the aft thinks its just fine for a private party to sell a gun to another party why should california require it to be on the bound books seems to me legally their authority only requires the sale to go through the california dros system |
#88
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Since the government is the one requiring the transfer, how about they pay for it. Start by removing the DROS fee, and then going the other direction a few dollars to cover the FFL's costs.
End results: FFL makes more than his current $10 margin, and it costs the consumer nothing [/pipedream] |
#89
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Do away with the 14 day wait and do instant NCIC background checks like the free states do. Then there is no need for any of it.
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#90
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What is the 14day wait you keep refering to?
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#91
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Sorry... 10 days... It used to be 14 so it sticks in my head.
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#92
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It used to be 15 days, the 5 days were due to the fact that the forms were mailed in. Since it is done electronically now, the time for the mail has been removed.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#93
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-jeremy |
#94
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How about for a $10 DOC fee?
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#95
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hmm this does have me a bit curious to what the exact law states how a ppt is done i think it may make it easier if the dealer didnt have to log in the gun store it then log it out
if the buyer and seller could just come in twice that would be cool and if the seller didnt want to come back then the dealer could charge an appropriate storage fee i dont see how the federal firearms licencees should have to even do a 4473 as that is a federal requirement for a sale and a ppt is only a "california"aka STATE thing how can a state require it to be added to federal paperwork when it is not required federaly |
#96
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From CA PC 12071: (17) The licensee shall maintain and make available for inspection during business hours to any peace officer, authorized local law enforcement employee, or Department of Justice employee designated by the Attorney General, upon the presentation of proper identification, a firearms transaction record. (4) For purposes of paragraph (17) of subdivision (b): (A) A "firearms transaction record" is a record containing the same information referred to in subdivision (a) of Section 478.124, Section 478.124a, and subdivision (e) of Section 478.125 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations. From Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations: § 478.124 Firearms transaction record. (a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received. |
#97
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But if the state of CA, in its ultimate wisdom, decides to send the business owner some time-waster guy who wants to spend an hour arguing over the 4473 AND sets the maximium price the guy can be charged at $10, (a) it's tough to make money with even a $15/hr wage-earner, and (b) there's a lot of risk in delegating the paperwork to a moron, because if the paperwork is done incorrectly or the buyer/seller say the wrong things, it can cost the business owner thousands in fees or ultimately their right to do business. Traders' was shut down, ultimately, because the employees who were supposed to be keeping the log of guns in/out didn't do it right. It may be the "fault" of some $15/hr clerk - but it's the owner who lost his business.
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"[T]he liberties of the American people [are] dependent upon the ballot-box, the jury-box, and the cartridge-box . . without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." -- Frederick Douglass (1892) |
#98
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California has it's own DROS paperwork and DROS system. The requirement for the 4473, and perhaps even entry into the dealer's bound book, appears to not be legal.
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- Rich |
#99
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#100
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thank you i'm glad someone gets my point also if the dealer never takes possession of the firearm they are not disposing of "it" the "unlicenced seller" is the ffl is only doing a background check applying a waiting period and for pistols registering and verifying a handgun safety certificate which also seems on shaky ground if it is not being transfered "from" the ffl dealer no lock should be required either since those laws only apply to licencees not occasional unlicenced sellers major reform must be enacted california should only be allowed to require its populace to transfer "through" an ffl dealer not "transfering to" and that is how the system seems to be flawed in my ideal world seller and buyer go to ffl dealer dealer does the dros both parties leave return in 10 days the dealer says the buyer checks out hand the firearm over the buyer hands the cash to the seller both walk away no lock requirement no handgun safety required(since its only required by the state that an ffl has to verify the buyer has one before it(pistol) can be transfered from the dealer the $10 charge would then only cause the dealer to use the computer not have to log in bound book do a 4473 form log out what law requires the ffl dealer to take possession of the firearm Last edited by bohoki; 11-26-2010 at 9:04 PM.. |
#101
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HSC is also required for loans, so it would still be applicable to a private party sale.
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- Rich |
#103
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according to the law i am not bound by the atf regulations for dealers and i'm also not bound by rules set forth for california licensed dealers where in the law does it require a non licensed individual before loaning a gun verify the person has a hsc |
#104
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Jack Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA? No posts of mine are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#105
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If the firearm transfer go through a FFL, then all of the paperwork is required, which would be a Federal law.
If two people in another state came to a FFL to do the transfer (where it is not required) because the seller wanted to ensure that the buyer was not prohibited, then the FFL would have to fill out all the required paperwork, including the 4473. So, because CA law requires the transfer be done at a FFL, then means that the normal paperwork is required.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#106
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the minute the ffl takes possession of the firearm all federal forms must be adheared to but if the ffl never takes possession then only california law should apply and i dont see how california could require the ffl to do excessive work on forms they have no juristiction over ive come to the opinion that the letter of the law is on my side as they ppt fee cap is not taking into account the excessive federal forms which is why the dros form is redundant with the preliminary disqualifier questions that are repeated on the 4473 form if everyone who does a dros does a 4473 why have those questions it seems to me that the system is set up to be separate Last edited by bohoki; 11-27-2010 at 9:45 AM.. |
#107
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If the transfer is done "at" the FFL and if the FFL does the transfer, then the FFL takes possession of the firearm. The FFL has to look at the serial number for the handgun, as that is required for the DROS.
I have to ask if you really would want both the buyer and seller to have to go to the FFL twice. Honestly, if you wanted to do it the "easy" way, the paperwork should just be sent into the DOJ and if everything is ok, then the seller could give the firearm to the buyer and no FFLs would be involved at all. Much like a family transfer.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#108
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Yeah...but then we're right back to the whole reason the PPT was created in the first place...to end FTF transactions and bring them into a "controled" circumstance where the buyer is checked before taking possession of the firearm. Not saying that's not the way it should be...but the entire 12082 would have to be striken, and 12071 would have to be revised.
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#109
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if a person wants to transfer the firearm to the ffl then i think the ffl shoudl be able to charge a storage and safety (insurace) and federal form filing fee but if the firearm never comes into possession of the ffl then the only thing the ffl should have to do fill out the california dros background,pistol info input for registration and i suppose since the form requires it the hsc number for handguns |
#110
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#111
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#112
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soooo all you with shops that "lose" all that money from being busy with the ppt.
just hire me and ill sell other stuff while youre busy
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#113
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Something I have yet to see brought up is the fact that the fee is low so as to encourage legal transactions while doing a PPT. If they were 50+ dollars plus the price of DROS I can see many transactions being done on the "down low."
There is no reason that the PPT could not be set up like an intrafamilial transfer. The buyer could send in a form to check eligibility and then give the approval letter to the seller to cover him/her. The money for the check goes to the .gov and no gun store is involved. The letter could be good for say 30-90 days. And/or the seller could check online at the DOJ website. To the FFL's that have an issue only making 10.00, we get it. It sucks for you and you don't make money from it. But, its a part of being in the gun business. And unless you were in it before 1991, you knew that going in. I'd like to know the average number of PPT's stores do per month. I'd also be interested in the value of having two potential customers in your store. Its forced foot traffic, it has to have some value. Last edited by RobG; 11-28-2010 at 8:45 AM.. |
#114
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I would think the misdemeanor violation would be motivation enough...on the average, legal gun owners are a little more hyper-sensitve about complying with laws anyway. So yes, back in 1991 $10 was cheap, now it's even cheaper, and 20 years from now it'll be even cheaper. Nobody can tell me with a straight face the fee should be $10 forever and all time, right? So the question is when do you adjust it, and by how much? Me personally? I'd say there should be an automatic adjustment every 10 years using inflation as the index.
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#115
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this is a case of a "suggested procedure" having been morphed into a pseudo law |
#116
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I still think there could be a way to eliminate the dealer altogether in a PPT. That or an instant check system like available in other states. Will it ever happen? Not likely. |
#117
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Read the CA PC and Federal laws. How can the FFL do the transfer if they do not have the firearm? You are trying to claim that the PPT is something special, but under Federal law there is nothing special about it, it is just a dealer transfer. For CA, it is also a transfer, but with different restrictions (less).
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
#118
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With a handgun, sure... cops runs the numbers, it's registered to someone else, you're busted unless your brought it in from out of state and both you and the gun are old enough so that you can say with a straight face that you've owned it since before 1991. Long guns? No registration. The only place the serial number is recorded is on the 4473, and it doesn't "go" anywhere unless and until the FFL closes shop and ships the pile to the BATFE... where it goes into a warehouse never to be seen again. The only time a long gun serial number would (or should) show in the system is if someone does a vol-reg, reports it stolen, or it's a RAW. And I've met plenty of gun owners who have transferred long guns illegally. Got it from a friend, bought it PPT out of state, etc.... Most legal gun owners are not on Calguns, and many (perhaps even most) are not aware of the requirement to execute transfers through an FFL. When you're on this forum, you're looking at the cream of the crop WRT California gun law awareness. Witness the dozen or two new threads every week posted by newbies who run the gamut from not knowing about the FFL transfer requirement to believing that all guns must be registered, and/or you need a permit to own a gun.
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- Rich |
#119
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If the FFL never takes possession, the bound book entry is not required, since he only has to hold it long enough to verify the serial number, make, and model. It never has to be checked into inventory. California only cares about the DROS information, they don't get the 4473 until they do an audit.
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- Rich |
#120
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You have to also follow the laws of the state that you are in, which in this case we are talking about California. So, it does not matter that Federal law does not force you to go to a FFL to do a transfer. If you do the transfer in CA you are violating CA State law if you don't go through a FFL.
In the case of a PPT, there is also a waiting period. So the FFL has to keep it for 10 days, which means that it has to be entered into the bound book, so it is not correct that the FFL only has to keep it long enough to verify the information. If the FFl does not take possession, then the transfer should be canceled and then you no longer have a transfer. Personally, I don't care for many of the laws, if not most of them, but I also don't want free room and board, so it is best to follow the laws. If you want things to be different, that is fine, but then get it changed. Until then, things have to be done in a certain way. So, making comments which really don't apply in CA does not do any good.
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Kemasa. False signature edited by Paul: Banned from the FFL forum due to being rude and insulting. Doing this continues his abuse. Don't tell someone to read the rules he wrote or tell him that he is wrong. Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time and you annoy the pig. - Robert A. Heinlein |
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