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  #1  
Old 02-24-2019, 10:25 AM
rafa1 rafa1 is offline
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Default Scopes with good Eye Box

Hi Calguns:

I recently acquired a Vortex SE 1-6x scope and like it a lot, except for one thing: The "Eye Box" as I think they call it.

I have plenty of experience with Red Dots but not with Magnified Optics. In coming across so many reviews on variable short-range scopes, I was convinced that a 1-4, 6 or 8 scope would be a good alternative to Red Dots. Numerous times reviewers indicated that the 1x feature is "just like a Red Dot."

No, it is not.

This is quite problematic for me as being used to Red Dots, my eye does not have to be directly behind the optic to see through. With my new SE, I was quite disappointed that just about any position when on 1x that was NOT directly behind the optic meant I couldn't see anything, it would be blacked out.

Are there variable scopes out there with a generous or more forgiving Eye Box?

Your advise or comments are most appreciated.

Last edited by rafa1; 02-25-2019 at 12:38 PM..
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  #2  
Old 02-24-2019, 11:40 AM
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I have heard leupold is pretty forgiving

“Eye box (dependent on Exit Pupil and Eye Relief) is strongly influenced by objective lens size and magnification. At 6x any optic will have a smaller eye box than at 4x.”

Could try a scout scope or pistol scope with the long eye relief to see if it helps
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  #3  
Old 02-24-2019, 12:27 PM
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The Viper PST 1-6x has a great eye box, but ya the strike eagle and primary arms 1-6x are pretty small eye box.

I went through the same scenario as you, I wanted a 1-6x strike eagle. ended up going a different route and did an Eotech with 3x magnifier and it suits me much better. I have an MRO that works well with the magnifier as well but the eotech reticle is my favorite.
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  #4  
Old 02-24-2019, 2:01 PM
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My Razor 1-6 has a very generous Eyebox.

I like mine greatly and practice to get it shouldered in the same position every time to reduce the problem you're having. It is a very forgiving optic.

For me however, a floating red dot has always been faster than a low power variable optic. I'm sure with a boat load of training, I could get the LPVO to be as fast, but I don't have the time to train that.
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Old 02-24-2019, 2:09 PM
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Razor 1-6
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  #6  
Old 02-24-2019, 2:24 PM
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A "scout" style scope ... burris makes a good one.
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  #7  
Old 02-25-2019, 12:42 PM
rafa1 rafa1 is offline
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THanks a lot for the advice peeps.

I'm afraid the Razor can't work for me as it its way over my budget. I looked into the Burris LPV's which are in my price range and some research says they have a very good eye box, but the problem is that they are really long, well over 11"

I guess what I'm looking for is:

Very Good Eye Box
Compact (as close as possible to 10" and even under)
"decent glass"
Illuminated reticle with range and BDC
Street Price range about $350

I wonder if that is a reasonable goal and if there is such a thing on the market?
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  #8  
Old 02-25-2019, 1:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafa1 View Post
I wonder if that is a reasonable goal and if there is such a thing on the market?
The PSTII 1-6 is really good.

You might check out (in person) the Burris RT-6, Nikon M-Tactical 1-4.

http://forum.snipershide.com/threads...tempted.98465/
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  #9  
Old 02-25-2019, 1:35 PM
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Expensive ones have very good eye relief. Basically, you get what you pay for. Pretty sad.
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Old 02-25-2019, 1:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpark09 View Post
Expensive ones have very good eye relief. Basically, you get what you pay for. Pretty sad.
Strike Eagles, PSTII, RT-6, etc... all have decent and similar "eye relief". 3.4-3.8" pretty common range for $200-$1000 scopes. Cheap Strike Eagles are 3.5" eye relief. OP is wanting the side-to-side and up-down forgiveness to be more like a red dot.
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  #11  
Old 02-25-2019, 3:23 PM
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If youíre going to buy any low power variable thinking youíre going to find an eye box like youíre used to with a RDS, youíre going to be disappointed. The length of the tube makes it impossible. Take an empty toilet paper tube and an empty paper towel tube and look through them while moving your head and youíll understand the problem pretty quick.

A 9-12Ē tube is going to be way less forgiving than a 2.5Ē tube, no matter what you put inside or how much $$ you spend.
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  #12  
Old 02-25-2019, 3:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotty99 View Post
A 9-12Ē tube is going to be way less forgiving than a 2.5Ē tube, no matter what you put inside or how much $$ you spend.
In many cases, a 24mm exit tube at that.
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Old 02-25-2019, 3:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crufflers View Post
In many cases, a 24mm exit tube at that.


Right. The paper towel tube is WAY more forgiving.
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  #14  
Old 02-26-2019, 8:10 AM
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One thing you may want to check is scope mounting position.
I've seen more than a few dudes that have the scope too close to their eye, especially if they run their stocks all the way collapsed.
It is easier to run a scope at 1X when you have it pushed out further with a cantilever mount.
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  #15  
Old 02-26-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafa1 View Post
THanks a lot for the advice peeps.

I'm afraid the Razor can't work for me as it its way over my budget. I looked into the Burris LPV's which are in my price range and some research says they have a very good eye box, but the problem is that they are really long, well over 11"

I guess what I'm looking for is:

Very Good Eye Box
Compact (as close as possible to 10" and even under)
"decent glass"
Illuminated reticle with range and BDC
Street Price range about $350

I wonder if that is a reasonable goal and if there is such a thing on the market?
I have the first gen Viper PST 1-4x and it fits those qualities, with better than "decent" glass. They pop up on occasion in the marketplace.
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Old 02-26-2019, 4:01 PM
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I agree that the it is diffcult to find the short eye-relief field behind the scope at 6x. I can only come up with that it might be caused by the scope being a SFP (second focal plane).

Anyway, there's a give and take between using a holographic sight, and scope, be it a SFP or FFP. The longest eye-relief field on a FFP 3-9x40 scope is when the magnification is something like 5.75x (power).

So 5.75x would be the optimal setting to acquire the fastest target recognition with that set-up. The best thing to do is practic, with the 1x6-24, then practic, practic, and practic some more, until the cheekweld for the small eye-relief is memorize into your muscle memory, and reflexes. I'm shooting paper plates at 400 yards, and fast. Like learning a video controller, special, finishing moves, etc, except more diffcult, but even then, everybody can't be the son of Annie Oakley.

I learned a long time ago from hunting and off road racing, that, "Slow is Smooth, and Smooth is Fast", check out the link, it applies to you:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/4FZf...smooth-is-fast

Last edited by tony270; 02-26-2019 at 4:42 PM.. Reason: To add the link.
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  #17  
Old 03-12-2019, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafa1 View Post
THanks a lot for the advice peeps.

I'm afraid the Razor can't work for me as it its way over my budget. I looked into the Burris LPV's which are in my price range and some research says they have a very good eye box, but the problem is that they are really long, well over 11"

I guess what I'm looking for is:

Very Good Eye Box
Compact (as close as possible to 10" and even under)
"decent glass"
Illuminated reticle with range and BDC
Street Price range about $350

I wonder if that is a reasonable goal and if there is such a thing on the market?
You cant even get a trusted red dot for that.
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  #18  
Old 03-12-2019, 4:25 PM
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Add a 45 degree reflex sight. Only use the scope at 1x as back up. Even with this budget setup, $500 is the stating point for reliable range use.
E.g P.A. 1-6x scope $300-400
Scope mount $60-150
Vortex reflex sight $150-200
Reflex sight mount $40 or $0 using Warne combo mount
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Old 03-12-2019, 5:11 PM
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Nikon M-Tactical 1-4 $200-$250 street price (great scope... Cabela's and Optics Planet right now IIRC... EBAY a little cheaper. I think I paid under $200 when there were codes to and Rewards+AJ to use.

Holosun HS503GU $129 (Botach)

EOTech the new compact improved one - $396 (Botach)
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Old 03-12-2019, 9:02 PM
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In the 1-6x category, I'd put Kahles,Vortex Razord HD and Steiner at the top of the heap for eye box.
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  #21  
Old 03-12-2019, 9:20 PM
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$350? I don’t think so.
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  #22  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:47 PM
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Thanks a lot for the insights guys, your advise has been quite helpful.

Probably the closest one would be the Viper 1-4x which is within price range, but the reticles (MRAD and MOA) are a bit confusing to me, compared to the newer gneration more straight-forward (less math) reticles. Seems like a really nice optic for the price otherwise.

Since the OP date, I've done some experiments to try to enjoy my Strike Eagle optic and with some adjustments to the stock, it's position on the rail and a little practice, I'm actually not so bummed out about it anymore.

Finding and getting accustomed to predictably positioning myself to "where this optic wants me to be" helps a lot.

At some point in the future perhaps if I can find a good deal maybe I will upgrade to an optic with a more accommodating eye box, but in the meantime I think I will just try to enjoy the Strike Eagle as it is, it's not so bad after a little practice with it.

Thanks a lot for your insights gentlemen, I appreciate it.

Last edited by rafa1; 03-13-2019 at 11:50 PM..
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  #23  
Old 04-21-2019, 10:02 AM
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My understanding is there are two main parameters that define your eye box: eye relief and exit pupil diameter.

Seems to me that you have eye relief down - distance from your scope to your eye.

The video below (and entire video series) has helped me understand quite a bit especially about exit pupil diameter
https://youtu.be/53LTp4prwkY?t=327

I have a similar experience with my leupold 1.5-5x x 20 mm scope.

That last number, 20 mm, is my objective lens size whereas yours is 24 mm. Exit pupil diameter is what i expect we are having trouble with:

Exit pupil diameter is Size of Objective Lens (mm) / Magnification Value

So at maximum magnification, your exit pupil diameter is 24 mm / 6 = 4 mm which is quite small.

I have the same exit pupil diameter and at max magnification and you have to be DEAD CENTER behind that scope to get a good image.

It is doable, but not forgiving/fast. For the magnification of interest, it seems a larger objective lens (40 mm) would do us both some good. That would get you an exit pupil diameter of 6.67 mm.
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Old 05-27-2019, 9:22 AM
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The scope with the largest eye box is the trijicon tr24 with a massive 17mm exit pupil at 1x. Hereís a quick video showing it and the eye relief.


https://youtu.be/wUiH4NT_NlQ


It is a bit above your budget, but they can be found for $500-600 used.


I would also take a look at the Burris mtac 1-4 or 1.5-6. Burris claims the exit pupil at 1x is 24mm. I donít think thatís the real number, Burris just divided the objective lenses by the magnification, but I have heard that it has a huge eye box. The 1.5-6 has a 40 mm objective lenses, and Burris claims a 27 mm exit pupil, but again itís probably not accurate. They both go for about $300 new which fits your budget.
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Old 05-27-2019, 9:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafa1 View Post
Hi Calguns:

I recently acquired a Vortex SE 1-6x scope and like it a lot, except for one thing: The "Eye Box" as I think they call it.

I have plenty of experience with Red Dots but not with Magnified Optics. In coming across so many reviews on variable short-range scopes, I was convinced that a 1-4, 6 or 8 scope would be a good alternative to Red Dots. Numerous times reviewers indicated that the 1x feature is "just like a Red Dot."

No, it is not.

This is quite problematic for me as being used to Red Dots, my eye does not have to be directly behind the optic to see through. With my new SE, I was quite disappointed that just about any position when on 1x that was NOT directly behind the optic meant I couldn't see anything, it would be blacked out.

Are there variable scopes out there with a generous or more forgiving Eye Box?

Your advise or comments are most appreciated.

You are not seeing this correctly. You, Mr. Consumer, are supposed to spend somewhere between 1K and 3K on a LPVO. To overcome its obvious failures close and with moving targets, you are supposed to spend more money on offset irons. Then, Mr. Consumer, you get a gym membership because once it gets off the bench, you are too weak to swing it efficiently from side to side.
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Old 05-28-2019, 1:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hark View Post
The scope with the largest eye box is the trijicon tr24 with a massive 17mm exit pupil at 1x. Hereís a quick video showing it and the eye relief.





https://youtu.be/wUiH4NT_NlQ





It is a bit above your budget, but they can be found for $500-600 used.





I would also take a look at the Burris mtac 1-4 or 1.5-6. Burris claims the exit pupil at 1x is 24mm. I donít think thatís the real number, Burris just divided the objective lenses by the magnification, but I have heard that it has a huge eye box. The 1.5-6 has a 40 mm objective lenses, and Burris claims a 27 mm exit pupil, but again itís probably not accurate. They both go for about $300 new which fits your budget.


I can verify the 1-4 MTAC has a very forgiving eye box. Iíve sold two rifles out from under it but always hung onto that scope. It does distort just a tiny bit at 1X though, which some people may complain about. I love the fact that the reticle stays visible when the power is off - very useful feature.


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Old 05-29-2019, 6:21 AM
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It comes down to cheekweld muscle memeory, like learning a Mortal Combat finishing move, and strength, to achieve that practic, practic, and practic someome.
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