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  #81  
Old 03-29-2015, 3:38 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
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Originally Posted by PaIadin View Post
Sandra, to her credit did follow the initial ruling but nothing prevents her from still following pre-panel guidelines. Furthermore, this is just a request for a en banc hearing NOT a decision not has any injunction been issued (to stop accepting SD as good cause, that would be unlawful).

I don't know what is unlawful, unless you mean that the majority Peruta opinion correctly applied the law and even though it may not be cited as precedent the sheriff should have continued to execute the law as interpreted by the Peruta majority, since at this time the en core panel could well reach the same decision. In short, to date the best guidance is that of the panel.

While not hypocritical, Sandra DOES have a choice and she (most likely) choose to go back to a more draconian policy

Should she make a mistake, see how fast a call goes out for a recall election.

I have a small suspicion that Kamela offered Hitchens an appointment for her recent deed.

Some call that bribery, others recognize that it is plain old politics.


Last edited by Chewy65; 03-29-2015 at 3:41 PM..
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  #82  
Old 03-29-2015, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
[/B]
Unlawful to issue an injunction to prevent chief County LEOs from accepting self defense as good cause.

May I ask what mistake you are referring too. A recall in OC for what, a Trayvon Martin CCW incident? That does not happen in the OC for the aforementioned reasons
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  #83  
Old 03-29-2015, 8:42 PM
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Originally Posted by PaIadin View Post
Unlawful to issue an injunction to prevent chief County LEOs from accepting self defense as good cause.

May I ask what mistake you are referring too. A recall in OC for what, a Trayvon Martin CCW incident? That does not happen in the OC for the aforementioned reasons
You can ask what you wish,but what I wrote is pretty clear. I thought you meant unlawful in the sense of a criminal offense, not just contrary to law. I agree that I know of know law justifying the issuance of a writ or injunction compelling a sheriff not to accept self defense as a showing of good cause. To the contrary, the Peruta case is all about whether a sheriff can be ordered to accept self defense as that.
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  #84  
Old 03-29-2015, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by PaIadin View Post
Thanks. I just applied the day before the panel decision and my understanding is that the Cheif LEO of the county sets policy on CCW good cause.

Hence, in free counties of CA the sheriff can accept SELF DEFENSE as good cause. The initial decision somewhat compelled county Cheif LEOs to accept self defense but many rejected it.

Sandra, to her credit did follow the initial ruling but nothing prevents her from still following pre-panel guidelines. Furthermore, this is just a request for a en banc hearing NOT a decision not has any injunction been issued (to stop accepting SD as good cause, that would be unlawful).

While not hypocritical, Sandra DOES have a choice and she (most likely) choose to go back to a more draconian policy

I have a small suspicion that Kamela offered Hitchens an appointment for her recent deed.
Sheriffs and Chiefs of police can set whatever GC they like for their respective jurisdiction. No one CLEO sets policy for the entire county.

Who knows what she'll do in the end, but to think that Harris promised her anything for her decision is
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  #85  
Old 03-29-2015, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by capntroy View Post
A friend's wife had an appointment for next week to pick up her CCW, she got a call this morning cancelling her appointment with no explanation...

Good old Sandy...
She (your friends wife) needs to go to the next supervisors meeting.
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  #86  
Old 03-29-2015, 10:56 PM
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There will be no recall of Hutchens over this or any other issue. Even Iron Mike never faced a recall. So in the last year we have gone from ~400 to ~11,000 CCW permits. It's conceivable that the pace could have continued for another year. That's 22,000 permits, which is a lot. In 2011 there were roughly 37,500 permits statewide, to out it in perspective. But there were over 340,000 voters at the polls in the last OC election in 2014. We amount to 3.2% of the voters, assuming every single permit holder votes. The majority of the county is not anti, but apathetic to this issue.
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  #87  
Old 03-29-2015, 11:50 PM
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How does that saying go:

I am merely a messenger..

This is FYI, take it with a grain of salt if you like. I just put it out there because I read their post and I thought it was worth sharing with you folks. Like my first sentence reads, "Hopefully this is the case."

Last edited by glock21sf; 03-29-2015 at 11:50 PM.. Reason: typo
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  #88  
Old 03-30-2015, 1:59 AM
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Originally Posted by glock21sf View Post
How does that saying go:

I am merely a messenger..

This is FYI, take it with a grain of salt if you like. I just put it out there because I read their post and I thought it was worth sharing with you folks. Like my first sentence reads, "Hopefully this is the case."
I hope this is true. Someone should test this and let us know.
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  #89  
Old 03-30-2015, 4:15 AM
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Thanks Glock21sf, you beat me to it.
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  #90  
Old 03-30-2015, 4:22 AM
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Originally Posted by itsmekevin View Post
I hope this is true. Someone should test this and let us know.
+1000

I am in the process now. I had my first interview, had already done my training and LS, and got the res check done. I will keep you posted on my progress.
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  #91  
Old 03-30-2015, 5:06 AM
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Thanks Glock21sf, you beat me to it.
You're welcome.
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  #92  
Old 03-30-2015, 5:49 AM
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It's certainly good news
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  #93  
Old 03-30-2015, 5:55 AM
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Originally Posted by AfisBoy View Post
this sounds a bit off. The sheriff can accept self defense if she wants to, she sets the policy right?
I had one on one time with Carona...well...before his trouble. We discussed CCW, and he told me he wanted to accept "self defense", but in his opinion, that changed "may issue" to "shall issue", and that was not the law.

He needed an articulable, specific reason.

He was pro CCW, just to provide perspective.
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  #94  
Old 03-30-2015, 6:07 AM
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On a personal note, I've been to Artemis Defense Institute several times and I am a member. The owners, Steve & Sandy are good people and I know they wouldn't post a BS story or exaggerate any statements made during the conversation they posted.

I do not know the Investigator they mentioned in the post. If anyone has had experience with him that would be good info to share as well.

Last edited by glock21sf; 03-30-2015 at 6:08 AM.. Reason: typo
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  #95  
Old 03-30-2015, 6:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock21sf View Post
On a personal note, I've been to Artemis Defense Institute several times and I am a member. The owners, Steve & Sandy are good people and I know they wouldn't post a BS story or exaggerate any statements made during the conversation they posted.

I do not know the Investigator they mentioned in the post. If anyone has had experience with him that would be good info to share as well.
That's good info. I wonder if such things (her Good Cause stance) should be communicated over PM rather than as a general post? That was suggested in another thread and that person ended up deleted his post.

Just a thought.

On another note, I think I'm going to give Artemis a try.
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  #96  
Old 03-30-2015, 7:03 AM
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On another note, I think I'm going to give Artemis a try.
Me and a buddy of mine took a 30 minute session last week. IMO, awesome and valuable experience.
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  #97  
Old 03-30-2015, 7:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
That's good info. I wonder if such things (her Good Cause stance) should be communicated over PM rather than as a general post? That was suggested in another thread and that person ended up deleted his post.

Just a thought.

On another note, I think I'm going to give Artemis a try.
I agree Doheny, I considered that last night before posting and I slept on it before posting the experience/contact post above.

I think it is very important that people aren't discouraged from applying or showing up for scheduled appointments.

The OCSD's website with the reinstated GCS requirements also encourages you to apply:

"Prospective applicants are encouraged to attend their scheduled appointments and submit their CCW applications for consideration. Applications approved after Thursday, March 26, 2015, are subject to the good cause requirement in OCSD Policy 218."

If the info in the Artemis Defense Institute post is correct and the Investigator named in the post has inside information that he was willing to share publicly, (which is made clear in their post):

"I asked him if this was on background or if I could publish this. He said "Yeah... absolutly... let your students know... publish it on the forums".
I don't want to innudate him with emails, but if you are a reporting agency and want to contact him directly (unless of course you know who Bryce is already)... send me a message and I will give you his email address."

Remember the GCS is at the Sheriff's Discretion.

I say we share it wherever it is relevant. If the permit holders in OC reach significant levels we will be a voting block that will have to be seriously considered. There is strength in numbers.

Your side note is a great idea, I recommend Artemis for "real life" scenario training. It really helps you realize how you will react in a bad situation. You can learn to deal with and overcome the stress involved in a use of force incident. Crime happens fast and hard. A lot of people freeze up when they are put in those simulators and that is something you have to learn to overcome if you want to survive on the street. Check their calendar. They have a post CCW class level 1 & 2 and a Defensive tactics class that are great. Private classes are also available.

The key to Artemis and their great program is to Believe the scenarios you experience are real. If you don't believe it is real, you won't fully benefit from the training.

Last edited by glock21sf; 03-30-2015 at 7:14 AM.. Reason: typos
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  #98  
Old 03-30-2015, 7:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
That's good info. I wonder if such things (her Good Cause stance) should be communicated over PM rather than as a general post? That was suggested in another thread and that person ended up deleted his post.

Just a thought.

On another note, I think I'm going to give Artemis a try.
To expand on this important note, if someone is using the official stance as cover, we should not publicize it.
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  #99  
Old 03-30-2015, 7:15 AM
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I added some comments below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by glock21sf View Post
I agree Doheny, I considered that last night before posting and I slept on it before posting the experience/contact post above.

I think it is very important that people aren't discouraged from applying or showing up for scheduled appointments.

The OCSD's website with the reinstated GCS requirements also encourages you to apply:

"Prospective applicants are encouraged to attend their scheduled appointments and submit their CCW applications for consideration. Applications approved after Thursday, March 26, 2015, are subject to the good cause requirement in OCSD Policy 218."

If the info in the Artemis Defense Institute post is correct and the Investigator named in the post has inside information that he was willing to share publicly, (which is made clear in their post):

"I asked him if this was on background or if I could publish this. He said "Yeah... absolutly... let your students know... publish it on the forums".
I don't want to innudate him with emails, but if you are a reporting agency and want to contact him directly (unless of course you know who Bryce is already)... send me a message and I will give you his email address."

Remember the GCS is at the Sheriff's Discretion.

I say we share it wherever it is relevant. If the permit holders in OC reach significant levels we will be a voting block that will have to be seriously considered. There is strength in numbers.

Your side note is a great idea, I recommend Artemis for "real life" scenario training. It really helps you realize how you will react in a bad situation. You can learn to deal with and overcome the stress involved in a use of force incident. Crime happens fast and hard. A lot of people freeze up when they are put in those simulators and that is something you have to learn to overcome if you want to survive on the street. Check their calendar. They have a post CCW class level 1 & 2 and a Defensive tactics class that are great. Private classes are also available.

The key to Artemis and their great program is to Believe the scenarios you experience are real. If you don't believe it is real, you won't fully benefit from the training.
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  #100  
Old 03-30-2015, 7:31 AM
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To be fair, If you think there is anything or a specific post I should change, send me a PM
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  #101  
Old 03-30-2015, 7:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Randy G. View Post
LBD will be along any minute to tell you you are full of cht.
Huh?.... his post is refreshing and seems completely in line with how I am viewing things.

Why would you think I'd tell him he's full of cht?
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  #102  
Old 03-30-2015, 8:14 AM
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Originally Posted by civlaw View Post
This gave my day a good start. Thank you for sharing
You're welcome. I've been smiling since I read the post last night. I was a victim of a violent crime that almost ended my life. I was almost murdered by 4 unarmed men. My face is permanently disfigured, I lost vision in one eye, and I lost my sense of smell. I know first hand how important it is to have a firearm immediately available to defend my life. The police would love to help you but, the chances of them being there when you need them are very slim. Fortunately, I have had a permit since June and I hope to continue having this permit for the rest of my life.

Last edited by glock21sf; 03-30-2015 at 1:38 PM..
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  #103  
Old 03-30-2015, 8:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock21sf View Post
Hopefully this is the case

Facebook post on Artemis Defense Institute's page March 29, 2015 @ 10:13pm.
Links to screen shots below:

Link to page so you can read or add comments: https://www.facebook.com/ArtemisDefe...titute?fref=ts


TO ALL THOSE INTERESTED IN CCW'S:
Today we were at Prado Shooting Park with CCW Class 11. While there I ran into Hansan (Hollywood) from Falcon Ops. Falcon Ops was teaching a class on another range. I mentioned our dissapointment on the recent OCSD policy change. He said, "I'm teaching a class right now and one of the background investigators for OCSD is a student. It's all good. Go introduce yourself and he will give you some good intel."
I went over to where his class was loading magazines and introduced myself to ****. **** took me aside and told me the following:
OCSD is still very very pro CCW. Because of the specific of the En Banc notice (Peruta cannot be used for precedent) OCSD cannot accept "General interest in self-defense" as articulated in the Peruta decsion as the "good cause". He then told me "just about anything else you can think of will be considered good cause."
This is the way things stand: If you have your CCW, your good. If you are in the process, done everything but the training, you are probably still good but there is a chance you will be contacted and asked to provide "a reason". The reason can be just about anything... to quote him "I'm Jewish and I'm worried about the terroism in Europe... My husband travels and I have to walk the dog at night... I go to the gym alone at night" These are all going to be considered good to go.
They just need something... some sort of "reason" other than "General interest in self-defense" (that phrase) as was articulated in Peruta. He stated the Dept. is pro-CCW and his Lt. is pro-ccw. They want to continue servicing the demand of OC residents to get their permits.
I asked him if this was on background or if I could publish this. He said "Yeah... absolutly... let your students know... publish it on the forums".
I don't want to innudate him with emails, but if you are a reporting agency and want to contact him directly (unless of course you know who ***** is already)... send me a message and I will give you his email address.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2T9...p=docslist_api

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2T9...p=docslist_api
Looks like there's some light.

My pick up date was on 3/31. I called OCSD today as well and like they all say if you have SD as your good cause, an investigator will call you to get a supplemental good cause. He didn't go into detail regarding what was acceptable, but if what glock say is true, I will test it out.

I asked for a timeline and the person over the phone told me expect to hear someone in a week or two... maybe he was just trying to make me feel better, but whether or not it's a week or a month, if our supplemental good cause can be pretty much anything other than SD, it's fine by me.
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Last edited by Albs; 03-30-2015 at 12:28 PM..
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  #104  
Old 03-30-2015, 8:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Albs View Post
Looks like there's some light.

My pick up date was on 3/31. I called OCSD today as well and like they all say if you have SD as you good cause, an investigator will call you to get a supplemental good cause. He didn't go into detail regarding what was acceptable, but if what glock say is true, I will test it out.

I asked for a timeline and the person over the phone told me expect to hear someone in a week or two... maybe he was just trying to make me feel better, but whether or not it's a week or a month, if our supplemental good cause can be pretty much anything other than SD, it's fine by me.
That sounds inline with the Artemis post. Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
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  #105  
Old 03-30-2015, 8:32 AM
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It doesn't hurt to keep our bad-mouthing of the Sheriff to a minimum here. It's not gentlemanly, doesn't reflect well on CG or gun owners in general, and may just plain p*ss her off to the point that she decides "I'll show them..."
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  #106  
Old 03-30-2015, 8:49 AM
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It doesn't hurt to keep our bad-mouthing of the Sheriff to a minimum here. It's not gentlemanly, doesn't reflect well on CG or gun owners in general, and may just plain p*ss her off to the point that she decides "I'll show them..."
I agree 100%. She had the guts to change the policy in the first place. The people at the OCSD have been courteous and professional in my experience and have only good things to say about them and Sheriff Hutchens.

After all I have been through with surviving an attempted murder, I thank her for her leadership and changing the policy. My permit has helped my confidence and given me piece of mind.
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  #107  
Old 03-30-2015, 9:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AfisBoy View Post
this sounds a bit off. The sheriff can accept self defense if she wants to, she sets the policy right?

WE believe that to be the case. Other Sheriffs certainly did so pre-Peruta. However, the info in sf's post does seem to support Hutchens' published stance of "just following the law". I don't know how to read her. On the one hand, there is this and her quick reversal in 2014 post-Peruta. On the other hand, there is her campaign statement of "If you want more CCW permits in Orange County, you are going to have to vote for one of my opponents."

I guess we will see when the successful GC statements start rolling in.
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  #108  
Old 03-30-2015, 9:28 AM
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Originally Posted by steadyrock View Post

I guess we will see when the successful GC statements start rolling in.
Yes we will. I've got about 15 months before my permit is up for renewal, an eternity it seems.

If she reverted back to the high bar for GC, and if 90% of "self defense" applicants went to re-apply - the percentages - well, wouldn't look good. That was always one of the arguments used to justify how restrictive they were - they could say there wasn't much demand.

I'm very encouraged by the last few posts on citing something - anything in good cause - in fact, when I took the FTA training we spent like 90 minutes on justifications other than just "self defense"
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Old 03-30-2015, 9:59 AM
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Well, this is all very encouraging news. I've also been acquainted with the owners of Artemis Defense, and I know they're not the type to exaggerate or post lies about this. They were a successful business before OC liberalized its CCW issuance policies, and I suspect they can easily go back to that (without the CCW training modules) and still be fine.


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Originally Posted by steadyrock View Post
WE believe that to be the case. Other Sheriffs certainly did so pre-Peruta. However, the info in sf's post does seem to support Hutchens' published stance of "just following the law". I don't know how to read her. On the one hand, there is this and her quick reversal in 2014 post-Peruta. On the other hand, there is her campaign statement of "If you want more CCW permits in Orange County, you are going to have to vote for one of my opponents."
I'm not quite sure how to read her either - it's either a series of very calculated maneuvers to appease both sides, or a lack of understanding as to how the whole CCW legal framework is set up, and how the Ninth Circuit's various orders in Peruta fit into that overall picture.

I think there's certainly enough here to believe that the Sheriff is giving us the old "wink-wink" - telling the CCW opponents that applications are being reviewed under a more stringent standard so that they can claim a victory on paper, but in practice issuing under only a slightly more stringent standard. The purported rationale behind the county-by-county discretion is so that each Sheriff can address the particular needs of a locality, but it's not always clear what that need actually is from our Sheriff's perspective.

Maybe I won't look a gift horse in the mouth, and just put my best foot forward as to why I feel my needs are ever so slightly more than the general public's. I'll leave that fight in the more capable hands of Appellants' counsel in Peruta.
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Gavin Newsom is a lying, cheating slickster and will be is the worst mistake California has ever made if he gets now that he has been elected Governor. Hollywood movie producers look to him and his oleaginous persona as a model for the corrupt "bad guy" politician character. This guy is so greasy, he could lubricate an entire arsenal of AR-15s just by breathing on them.
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Old 03-30-2015, 10:00 AM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
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If what was put out by Artemis is true, and it may well be, let's do our best to give the sheriff the "ammunition" she needs to exercise her discretion to find good cause.

If you have had your interview, be ready to provide a supplemental gc statement. If you are waiting for the inititial appointment, include the info needed per OCSD policy 218 found at http://ocsd.org/civicax/filebank/blo...x?BlobID=24223 .

Keep in mind that the criteria given for showing good cause is not all inclusive, as stated at the end of the list.

Quote:
Note: These examples are not intended to be all-inclusive they are provided merely for your reference. Also, state and local laws do not prohibit an adult from having a concealed firearm in their home or place of business.

Last edited by Chewy65; 03-30-2015 at 10:03 AM..
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  #111  
Old 03-30-2015, 10:05 AM
MA5177 MA5177 is offline
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I guess I have 15 months to start pissing people off ; )
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  #112  
Old 03-30-2015, 12:04 PM
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Also this: http://www.scpr.org/programs/airtalk...ith-major-pol/

and this: http://ocpoliticsblog.com/2015/03/27...e-peruta-case/

.

Last edited by Doheny; 03-30-2015 at 12:07 PM.. Reason: Added additional link...
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  #113  
Old 03-30-2015, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MA5177 View Post
I guess I have 15 months to stop pissing people off ; )
Fixed that for you.,..,
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  #114  
Old 03-30-2015, 12:50 PM
glock21sf glock21sf is offline
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AfisBoy, civlaw, Randy G.

Please check your private messages. Thank you.
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  #115  
Old 03-30-2015, 1:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steadyrock View Post
There will be no recall of Hutchens over this or any other issue. Even Iron Mike never faced a recall. So in the last year we have gone from ~400 to ~11,000 CCW permits. It's conceivable that the pace could have continued for another year. That's 22,000 permits, which is a lot. In 2011 there were roughly 37,500 permits statewide, to out it in perspective. But there were over 340,000 voters at the polls in the last OC election in 2014. We amount to 3.2% of the voters, assuming every single permit holder votes. The majority of the county is not anti, but apathetic to this issue.
And most of this OC county is Republicans with Independents and Libertarians making the largest non-democratic parties. Surely they can band together get get her out and leave her lakie in the cold.
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Old 03-30-2015, 2:03 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
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The Sheriff's Policy following the grant of en banc is simply not quite correct.

It says that the three judge panel decision cannot be cited as authority. It may not be cited by or to a any court as authority, but may be cited to others. For example, it can be cited to a county supervisor or a concerned citizen to explain why she chose to continue to accept self defense as good cause.

It may also be cited to a court to explain why she chose to explain her stance on good cause, but only for its reasoning and not as precedence or authority. Attorneys often refer to decisions which may not be cited, often is they are depublished, and they may do so as long as it is made clear to the court that they are not being cited as precedence. For example, in Smith v Jones, not certified for publication but herein offered for the reasoning of the learned Justice, . . . ."

My point is that while the panel decision no longer binds the sheriff, she can, I believe should, and the Artemis posting suggests that the sheriff's thinking is in line with the reasoning of the Peruta panel's majority.

Last edited by Chewy65; 03-30-2015 at 2:11 PM..
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Old 03-30-2015, 2:17 PM
glock21sf glock21sf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doheny View Post
It doesn't hurt to keep our bad-mouthing of the Sheriff to a minimum here. It's not gentlemanly, doesn't reflect well on CG or gun owners in general, and may just plain p*ss her off to the point that she decides "I'll show them..."
PaIadin, read this wise post from Doheny.
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  #118  
Old 03-30-2015, 2:29 PM
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I had my initial interview with OCSD on Monday 3/23 and my live scan later that day. on Saturday 3/28 they completed my residence check by knocking on a neighbors door, I was not home. I emailed my interviewer today asking how the en banc would effect my CCW app, as I provided lawful self defense as my good cause. I have not completed my CCW training yet and was asking if I should proceed, here is his answer -

"We are still waiting to get more direction from the Sheriff. Hold off on training for now. Prepare a good cause statement and email it to me for your file. Included anything that is pertinent such as carrying large sums of cash for business, victim of crime etc. Hopefully this week we will have a better idea of how the Sheriff will want to move forward in light of the ruling. The case will be heard in June and hopefully it won’t take too long for the court to decide. I will reach out to everyone as we get the information."
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  #119  
Old 03-30-2015, 2:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glock21sf View Post
PaIadin, read this wise post from Doheny.
I don't think "wise post" and "Doheny" have been used in a sentence on this site before.
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  #120  
Old 03-30-2015, 2:35 PM
glock21sf glock21sf is offline
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Hopefully this is the case

Facebook post on Artemis Defense Institute's page March 29, 2015 @ 10:13pm.

Link to page so you can read or add comments: https://www.facebook.com/ArtemisDefe...titute?fref=ts


TO ALL THOSE INTERESTED IN CCW'S:
Today we were at Prado Shooting Park with CCW Class 11. While there I ran into Hansan (Hollywood) from Falcon Ops. Falcon Ops was teaching a class on another range. I mentioned our dissapointment on the recent OCSD policy change. He said, "I'm teaching a class right now and one of the background investigators for OCSD is a student. It's all good. Go introduce yourself and he will give you some good intel."
I went over to where his class was loading magazines and introduced myself to him. He took me aside and told me the following:
OCSD is still very very pro CCW. Because of the specific of the En Banc notice (Peruta cannot be used for precedent) OCSD cannot accept "General interest in self-defense" as articulated in the Peruta decsion as the "good cause". He then told me "just about anything else you can think of will be considered good cause."
This is the way things stand: If you have your CCW, your good. If you are in the process, done everything but the training, you are probably still good but there is a chance you will be contacted and asked to provide "a reason". The reason can be just about anything... to quote him "I'm Jewish and I'm worried about the terroism in Europe... My husband travels and I have to walk the dog at night... I go to the gym alone at night" These are all going to be considered good to go.
They just need something... some sort of "reason" other than "General interest in self-defense" (that phrase) as was articulated in Peruta. He stated the Dept. is pro-CCW and his Lt. is pro-ccw. They want to continue servicing the demand of OC residents to get their permits.
I asked him if this was on background or if I could publish this. He said "Yeah... absolutly... let your students know... publish it on the forums".
I don't want to innudate him with emails, but if you are a reporting agency and want to contact him directly... send me a message and I will give you his email address.
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