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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #41  
Old 03-19-2015, 11:47 PM
Daydrmr999 Daydrmr999 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFShep View Post
So the pawnbroker checked with the DOJ on the pawn-and-release method. The DOJ rep said that while it's perfectly legal, it would cause the gun to be listed twice in the Automated Firearms System (AFS). Once in the old caliber and once in the new caliber.

Has this been the case for anyone else?
As far as I know it was not an issue with mine. When I took my gun to my IA the first time, the detective reported back that it was registered as .25. After pawning I took it back and she ran it again, said it had been fixed. Didn't mention anything about 2 records.
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  #42  
Old 03-20-2015, 8:06 AM
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Originally Posted by JonW View Post
It's not you the original owner that is doing the straw purchase, it is your friend whom you are transferring to.

Look at the warning on the 4473: Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person.

If the intention is to receive the firearm for the purpose of then transferring to another person, then can your friend truthfully answer that question?

Here's an example of where what should be a legal transfer was deemed a straw purchase: https://www.nraila.org/articles/2014...-united-states

^^ That article is a very interesting read. The decision of the courts to consider this case as an example of unlawful purchase is baffling.
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  #43  
Old 03-20-2015, 8:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JonW View Post
I'm guessing you didn't read the article/case that I linked.

I agree with your logic - there should be no crime committed. Unfortunately, the BATFE doesn't see it that way.
What the case dealt with was a "NEW" purchase from an FFL. The difference here is that this is a PTP transfer where the FFL is only used for the paperwork and holding place for which they receive a fee.

Really two different scenarios...
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  #44  
Old 03-20-2015, 8:15 AM
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Another option would be to just buy a 40S&W barrel and be done with it!!!
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  #45  
Old 03-20-2015, 8:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onelonehorseman View Post
^^ That article is a very interesting read. The decision of the courts to consider this case as an example of unlawful purchase is baffling.
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Originally Posted by titan2 View Post
What the case dealt with was a "NEW" purchase from an FFL. The difference here is that this is a PTP transfer where the FFL is only used for the paperwork and holding place for which they receive a fee.

Really two different scenarios...
It is not the purchase that is the crime. The crime is the perjury committed by the buyer when he or she signs the ATF 4473 upon which the buyer has specifically stated they are the "actual buyer" of the firearm. This is true of new purchases as well as PPTs, as they all require the buyer to fill out and sign the 4473.

In the situation described, the owner's friend would purchase the gun solely to effect a later transfer back to the owner. That may put the friend in jeopardy of violating the conditions of truthfulness on the ATF 4473.

Please see: ATF 4473,: https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/down...f-f-4473-1.pdf

Question 11a,
Quote:
11.
a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.) Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b.
and Certification at the top of Page 2:
Quote:
I certify that my answers to Section A are true, correct, and complete. I have read and understand the Notices, Instructions, and Definitions on ATF Form 4473. I understand that answering “yes” to question 11.a. if I am not the actual buyer is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law.
The instructions for Q11a which are found on Page 4 are also of interest.

The noteworthy part of Abramski is that both parties were legally eligible to purchase firearms. The paper trail showed that the relative gave Abramski the money specifically to purchase a gun for the relative. SCOTUS determined that made Abramski's certification fraudulent.

From the ruling: http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files...united-states/
Quote:
Holding: Regardless whether the actual buyer could have purchased the gun, a person who buys a gun on someone else’s behalf while falsely claiming that it is for himself makes a material misrepresentation punishable under 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6), which prohibits knowingly making false statements “with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of a sale of a gun.” {emphasis added}

Judgment: Affirmed, 5-4, in an opinion by Justice Kagan on June 16, 2014. Justice Scalia filed a dissenting opinion, in which Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Thomas, and Justice Alito joined.

Last edited by Dvrjon; 03-20-2015 at 8:46 AM..
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  #46  
Old 03-23-2015, 1:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Daydrmr999 View Post
As far as I know it was not an issue with mine. When I took my gun to my IA the first time, the detective reported back that it was registered as .25. After pawning I took it back and she ran it again, said it had been fixed. Didn't mention anything about 2 records.
Yeah. I seem to be getting all kinds of different answers. Some say it will override the old caliber once it's pawned, others say it will create a duplicate with the old and new caliber once it's pawned. I guess the only way will be to try it out and hope for the best.
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  #47  
Old 04-19-2015, 12:49 PM
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So I completed the pawn-and-release and picked up the gun after the 10-day wait a couple weeks ago. The new DROS I have for it now says it's a 9mm. Submitted an update and a copy of the new DROS to the Sheriff CCW Coordinator and she said she'd contact me when it's ready. Just waiting for a call or email to let me know it's ready for pickup.

On a more humorous note, I'm actually starting to have dreams about this ordeal. Last night I dreamt that the Sheriff's Office couldn't figure out how to list the gun with the new caliber on the permit and still stay within their own policy of following DOJ advice...so they simply put on the permit: "Any other P229."
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  #48  
Old 04-19-2015, 1:42 PM
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There will be two records of the same gun on your Automated Firearms System record.
I legally sold a handgun, and later had it DROS'ed back to me when I acquired it through inheritance.
Both transactions are kept on my file, which I requested from the DOJ.

In prior years, they did not keep a record of rifles and shotguns, except for registered assault weapons, and voluntary reporting of ownership of rifles and shotguns. Now, all firearms sales are registered.

My IA would list both calibers on the permit, if needed. Your IA sucks.
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  #49  
Old 04-19-2015, 1:48 PM
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Mind police are here, now! thanks to lib SCOTUS appointments.
I side with the minority report.
I hope Kagan gets brain cancer in her rotting mind.


Holding: Regardless whether the actual buyer could have purchased the gun, a person who buys a gun on someone else’s behalf while falsely claiming that it is for himself makes a material misrepresentation punishable under 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6), which prohibits knowingly making false statements “with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of a sale of a gun.” {emphasis added}

Judgment: Affirmed, 5-4, in an opinion by Justice Kagan on June 16, 2014. Justice Scalia filed a dissenting opinion, in which Chief Justice Roberts, Justice Thomas, and Justice Alito joined.
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  #50  
Old 04-19-2015, 2:09 PM
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^^^ I don't understand the correlation to thread topic?
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  #51  
Old 04-19-2015, 2:59 PM
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Didn't read through the whole thread, but I have two pistols that are on my ccw that were bought out of state. Sent in a volreg with a check and got a form back stating they're mine. Sent that into my IA and all is good.
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  #52  
Old 04-19-2015, 3:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCCW View Post
There will be two records of the same gun on your Automated Firearms System record.
I legally sold a handgun, and later had it DROS'ed back to me when I acquired it through inheritance.
Both transactions are kept on my file, which I requested from the DOJ.

In prior years, they did not keep a record of rifles and shotguns, except for registered assault weapons, and voluntary reporting of ownership of rifles and shotguns. Now, all firearms sales are registered.

My IA would list both calibers on the permit, if needed. Your IA sucks.
Yeah, that's what the DOJ rep I spoke to said as well. I don't have the old caliber anymore so as long as my IA will accept a dual record of the gun, it should be okay. If not, I'll have to next look into getting a 4546 "No Longer in Possession" form submitted for the old caliber.
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  #53  
Old 04-19-2015, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SFShep View Post
I seem to have hit a bit of a snag in my CCW application. The sheriff's office is telling me that since I changed the caliber of my handgun from .40 S&W to 9mm, I can't list it because the caliber doesn't match what DOJ has on file.

Does anyone know what form, if any, I would submit to DOJ to change the caliber listed for my handgun?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFShep View Post
Yeah this gun was not purchased through SSE, but was purchased when I was living in New Jersey before I moved to California. So a California DROS doesn't exist for it. I considered selling it to a friend through a Private Party Transfer and then buying it back from him. But was hoping there might be a less involved way of doing it.
If a CA DROS doesn't exist how can he say it doesn't match??

Sounds like submitting the VolReg should take care of the problem.

However, you might want to recheck ahead of time. Maybe your sheriff's office means they won't allow the gun to be modified from it's original manufactured configuration. That's the case here. If the gun was born as a .40 cal it can only be on your CCW as a .40. This is not the case every where.
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  #54  
Old 04-19-2015, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ElDub1950 View Post
If a CA DROS doesn't exist how can he say it doesn't match??

Sounds like submitting the VolReg should take care of the problem.

However, you might want to recheck ahead of time. Maybe your sheriff's office means they won't allow the gun to be modified from it's original manufactured configuration. That's the case here. If the gun was born as a .40 cal it can only be on your CCW as a .40. This is not the case every where.
VolReg doesn't work for caliber changes. It's been tested before by other forum members and they say it just gets kicked back to them with the message from DOJ: "We don't make caliber changes to your AFS entries, your gun is already registered."

My IA said as long as the caliber on my AFS entry matches what I'm putting on my CCW, it can be listed.
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  #55  
Old 04-19-2015, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SFShep View Post
VolReg doesn't work for caliber changes. It's been tested before by other forum members and they say it just gets kicked back to them with the message from DOJ: "We don't make caliber changes to your AFS entries, your gun is already registered."

My IA said as long as the caliber on my AFS entry matches what I'm putting on my CCW, it can be listed.
I understood the op to mean that the gun wasn't yet registered in CA. If it's already registered you're right it doesn't work. If he hasn't registered it yet, it should work.
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  #56  
Old 04-19-2015, 5:12 PM
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I understood the op to mean that the gun wasn't yet registered in CA. If it's already registered you're right it doesn't work. If he hasn't registered it yet, it should work.
No it's registered. Been living in CA since 2007 and had to register it upon arrival. Only recently changed the caliber.
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  #57  
Old 04-30-2015, 11:57 AM
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Okay, it's official. My local sheriff's office has accepted the caliber change using the Pawn-and-Release method. Thanks for everyone's advice! Couldn't have done it otherwise.
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  #58  
Old 04-30-2015, 12:24 PM
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Oh cool. So, just curious, how much did this pawn-and-release method cost? $25 DROS, $FFL fee, $pawn fee?

did a Pawn shop FFL do this for you or your LGS?

A new 40 S&W barrel may have worked for now to get the SN on the CCW permit, provided you qualify with it, right? Then deal with the 9mm later?

Does your IA allow you to change calibers between 40 S&W and 9mm? One SN and two calibers? I'm not sure if you specifically addressed that earlier in the thread or not.
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  #59  
Old 04-30-2015, 1:33 PM
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If you do not want to do the Pawn shop route - find a LGS that will put it on consignment - put it up for sale for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ - leave it for a few weeks,,, go back and say, I have decided I do not want to sale this gun... By law, the LGS must do a DROS with you to get your gun back,,, silly law, but its true - when it is Dros'd to you, it will be in current configuration. I found this out the hard way,, took a gun in to sale - decided not to sale it,,, had to have it Dros'd back to me,,, live and learn
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  #60  
Old 04-30-2015, 1:50 PM
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It is completely up to the IA. I know that I've certified a single gun in multiple calibers for students before but, each IA is different.
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  #61  
Old 04-30-2015, 3:46 PM
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Oh cool. So, just curious, how much did this pawn-and-release method cost? $25 DROS, $FFL fee, $pawn fee?

did a Pawn shop FFL do this for you or your LGS?

A new 40 S&W barrel may have worked for now to get the SN on the CCW permit, provided you qualify with it, right? Then deal with the 9mm later?

Does your IA allow you to change calibers between 40 S&W and 9mm? One SN and two calibers? I'm not sure if you specifically addressed that earlier in the thread or not.
Well it was the DROS fee plus the interest accrued for what was offered on the gun. The pawnshop I went to offered me $250 for the gun and I picked it up the next day, the interest was $40.

First you make the caliber change, then it's up to you if you want to pawn it first and then turn in the paperwork; or just qualify and turn in the paperwork without pawning it first and see if they make a fuss about the caliber discrepancy (depending on the IA, they may or may not).

My IA doesn't allow me to alternate between calibers. I can only have .40 OR 9mm on the permit. I suppose I could use up two spaces for each caliber if I wanted to, but I only want it in 9mm. That's just me though.
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