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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 02-01-2015, 8:34 AM
EGrove EGrove is offline
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Default Bicycle touring good enough reason for ccw permit?

I was thinking about using this as my reason on my ccw application. I am some what of a cyclist and plan to do some short 2-5 day tours going from Sacramento to San Francisco and then down south to San Diego area.

I would have to camp at places at night and I would have some expensive gear...carbon bike, bike computer, ipad, etc. I would be a bit vulnerable imo for would be robbers.

Is this a valid reason for ccw? I have a clean record..no misdemeanors, no felonies, no dui, no medical marijuana card, etc.


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Old 02-01-2015, 9:19 AM
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Based on your screen name, if you are in Sacramento County, "Self-defense and defense of my family", is sufficient Good Cause. They don't want to hear about your bicycle or anything else. ("Being a bit vulnerable to robbery" is not persuasive. Additionally, it may be counterproductive to indicate you would use deadly force to stop a non-life-threatening robbery).

This will take you to a specific Sac County thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...352779&page=46

Best.

Last edited by Dvrjon; 02-01-2015 at 9:25 AM..
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Old 02-01-2015, 9:42 AM
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Is riding a bicycle good cause for getting a CCW? LOL! Riding a bike, camping, etc. are not reasons to get or have a CCW/LTC. Self defence and/or personal protection are good reasons. Those reasons are valid no matter what legal activities you happen to choose to do.
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Old 02-01-2015, 9:48 AM
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This^^^
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:07 AM
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Specific "reason" for good cause statement can never be exact ... you can name a million what if "reasons" and never be correct. It's better to not assume what may happen. BETTER to be prepared for any and all situations in the form of two words 'personal protection'.

Now, I understand that these two words alone on some good cause statements around California are not good enough ... so be it. Then I highly recommend locating the Forum here on CalGuns that is specific to your County and get pointers there.

Here in Mendocino County they instruct the applicants to write two words, and two words ONLY for good cause ... "personal protection" These two words cover any and all situations. However, please find out from the people in your County what is expected in Good Cause Statement.

You've come to the right place for answers ... just need to find people in your County that have a LTC and ask them. The Sheriff Office may be a good source too, but be careful ... you may be talking to someone against Right to carry.

Our Sheriff Office will tell you to write two words, and two words only.

Best of luck to you, hoping you get your CCW/LTC.
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  #6  
Old 02-01-2015, 12:51 PM
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Default Bicycle touring good enough reason for ccw permit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
Based on your screen name, if you are in Sacramento County, "Self-defense and defense of my family", is sufficient Good Cause. They don't want to hear about your bicycle or anything else. ("Being a bit vulnerable to robbery" is not persuasive. Additionally, it may be counterproductive to indicate you would use deadly force to stop a non-life-threatening robbery).

This will take you to a specific Sac County thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...352779&page=46

Best.

I would love to see what a "non-life-threatening robbery" looks like. I am assuming you are either kidding or do not know the difference between robbery and theft.

Thanks for the link.


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Old 02-01-2015, 2:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EGrove View Post
I would love to see what a "non-life-threatening robbery" looks like. I am assuming you are either kidding or do not know the difference between robbery and theft.

Thanks for the link.

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How did "theft" get in here? You were talking about being vulnerable to would-be robbers, not thieves.

The definition of the crime of Robbery from the California Penal Code doesn't include threat to life. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...0&file=211-215
Quote:
211. Robbery is the felonious taking of personal property in the
possession of another, from his person or immediate presence, and
against his will, accomplished by means of force or fear.
212. The fear mentioned in Section 211 may be either:
1. The fear of an unlawful injury to the person or property of the
person robbed, or of any relative of his or member of his family;
or,
2. The fear of an immediate and unlawful injury to the person or
property of anyone in the company of the person robbed at the time of
the robbery.
See? Threat to life is not an element of the crime. Just fear of unlawful injury.

Best.

Last edited by Dvrjon; 02-01-2015 at 2:41 PM..
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Old 02-01-2015, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
How did "theft" get in here? You were talking about being vulnerable to would-be robbers, not thieves.

The definition of the crime of Robbery from the California Penal Code doesn't include threat to life. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...0&file=211-215

See? Threat to life is not an element of the crime. Just fear of unlawful injury.

Best.
This was taken from CA DOJ's "California Firearms Laws Summary 2013"

Quote:
Permissible Use of Lethal Force in Defense of Life and Body


The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist
the attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a
reasonable person in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the
person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there
was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the person
acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or
another from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime . Murder, mayhem,
rape and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes .
(Pen .
Code, § 197 .)

As you can plainly see, Kamala Harris (who's name appears on the front cover) and the state of California do not understand what you are trying to say. How much more plain can it get? "Robbery" is legally considered a forcible and life threatening crime in California PERIOD.
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  #9  
Old 02-01-2015, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
"Robbery" is legally considered a forcible and life threatening crime in California PERIOD.

Tell that to the franchise tax board.
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Old 02-02-2015, 7:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
This was taken from CA DOJ's "California Firearms Laws Summary 2013"

As you can plainly see, Kamala Harris (who's name appears on the front cover) and the state of California do not understand what you are trying to say. How much more plain can it get? "Robbery" is legally considered a forcible and life threatening crime in California PERIOD.
It's not just Kammie.

Poorly researched, badly written organizational publications do not create legal standing...even if they are copied verbatim from the previous (2007) version of the document http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf (Page 26), bearing Edmund G. Brown's name.

At any rate, if threat to life is a part of the act of robbery, one would think the California Jury instructions would include it, but CALCRIM 1600, Jury Instructions, doesn't include threat to life. https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs...1600/1600.html
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Old 02-05-2015, 7:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
How did "theft" get in here? You were talking about being vulnerable to would-be robbers, not thieves.

The definition of the crime of Robbery from the California Penal Code doesn't include threat to life. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...0&file=211-215

See? Threat to life is not an element of the crime. Just fear of unlawful injury.

Best.

Sorry but that is absolutely absurd knowing how robberies transition to homicide. How many incidents start off as a robbery and then turn into homicide? You talk as if robberies are some how static in nature when they are occurring. Unless you are some kind of mind reader, or have x-ray vision and can see that the robber does not have a knife or gun in his pockets/waistband...I cannot think of a scenario when you feel your life would be safe.

Here are some stats you may be interested taken from fbi.gov:

Robbery comprised 29.4 percent of violent crimes.

Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.7 percent of the nation’s murders, 41.3 percent of robberies...

41.3 percent. That is pretty significant. Just knowing that stat...and if you find yourself in a robbery...how can you not see it as life threatening? The answer is not in some penal code or precedent, this is just common sense imo. And if you are ever being robbed I hope you treat it as life threatening so you do what you need to do to come out of it alive and well brother.




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  #12  
Old 02-05-2015, 8:10 PM
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Default Bicycle touring good enough reason for ccw permit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Is riding a bicycle good cause for getting a CCW? LOL! Riding a bike, camping, etc. are not reasons to get or have a CCW/LTC. Self defence and/or personal protection are good reasons. Those reasons are valid no matter what legal activities you happen to choose to do.

Agreed bicycle touring is a ridiculous reason but it is an honest reason on when I would feel the need to conceal carry.


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Last edited by EGrove; 02-05-2015 at 8:13 PM..
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Old 02-05-2015, 8:12 PM
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Just how do you conceal a firearm in spandex shorts anyway? Never mind, it's a visual I don't need LOL.
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:02 PM
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As others have said, whether you can get a CCW w/that (or self-defense) as your Good Cause statement depends upon the county in which you reside. Tell us that (either by posting or by adding it to your Personal Info so that it shows up as your Location in the upper right of each post), and we can reply to you more intelligently.

Or you can look for your county's CCW Information at:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/f...play.php?f=116

and go thru the thread there (or post there) to find out your likelihood of getting a CCW.
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Old 02-06-2015, 8:01 AM
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If you're Sacramento based, all you need is "self defense".

I wear a simple fanny pack when I ride.
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Old 02-06-2015, 8:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Is riding a bicycle good cause for getting a CCW? LOL! Riding a bike, camping, etc. are not reasons to get or have a CCW/LTC. Self defence and/or personal protection are good reasons. Those reasons are valid no matter what legal activities you happen to choose to do.
Prior to Kern County going virtually shall issue, and their acceptance of a simple "For defense of myself and family", they required an explanation of why you considered yourself at heightened risk.

I know several people who put down something like this as their good cause statement "I am an avid outdoorsman and spend time camping in areas without cellphone coverage, and even when I am camped in areas with cell phone coverage, the response time for police assistance would be measured in hours, if they could find my camping location. I would like to be able to defend myself and my family should a situation arise where the police could either not be contacted, or could not respond in a reasonable amount of time."

Until such time as Peruta is finalized, sometimes more than "Self-Defense" is needed.
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Old 02-06-2015, 8:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Res View Post
If you're Sacramento based, all you need is "self defense".

I wear a simple fanny pack when I ride.
Center jersey pocket works for me.
Accessible with either hand.
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Old 02-06-2015, 8:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
Prior to Kern County going virtually shall issue, and their acceptance of a simple "For defense of myself and family", they required an explanation of why you considered yourself at heightened risk.

I know several people who put down something like this as their good cause statement "I am an avid outdoorsman and spend time camping in areas without cellphone coverage, and even when I am camped in areas with cell phone coverage, the response time for police assistance would be measured in hours, if they could find my camping location. I would like to be able to defend myself and my family should a situation arise where the police could either not be contacted, or could not respond in a reasonable amount of time."

Until such time as Peruta is finalized, sometimes more than "Self-Defense" is needed.
Several weeks ago I made in post (#204) in the Concealed Carry County Info thread for Kern asking for a status update re. their GC requirement and did not get any replies. Could you update that thread by posting what you know (incl source/s) and what you've experienced in that thread?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...=352757&page=6
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Old 02-06-2015, 9:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EGrove View Post
Sorry but that is absolutely absurd knowing how robberies transition to homicide.
You are arguing a different issue. Yes, robberies may start as, or can evolve into, life-threatening events.

However, threat to life is not an element required to prove the crime of robbery.

If it were, then every DA would be required to prove the victim's life was threatened before a jury could convict. Since threat to life is not an element of the crime (although it may become a part of the crime) it does not need to be proven for conviction.

Take purse snatching. If the victim struggles to hold on to the purse so that the thief must jerk it loose, the common law and virtually all the American states find that a robbery has been committed. But threat to life is not required to convict.

That's it.

Best.
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Old 02-10-2015, 3:45 PM
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Default Bicycle touring good enough reason for ccw permit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
Prior to Kern County going virtually shall issue, and their acceptance of a simple "For defense of myself and family", they required an explanation of why you considered yourself at heightened risk.



I know several people who put down something like this as their good cause statement "I am an avid outdoorsman and spend time camping in areas without cellphone coverage, and even when I am camped in areas with cell phone coverage, the response time for police assistance would be measured in hours, if they could find my camping location. I would like to be able to defend myself and my family should a situation arise where the police could either not be contacted, or could not respond in a reasonable amount of time."



Until such time as Peruta is finalized, sometimes more than "Self-Defense" is needed.

There are probably going to be some off beaten trails I head down from time to time and that is where I could be vulnerable on the bike. Robberies happen on bike paths just like rapes and killings happen on jogging/hiking trails. And if a cop asked me some specifics as to when I would carry I would tell him that. I saw this video recently on youtube...guy gets robbed at gunpoint riding his mountain bike. Pretty interesting and would make good conversation on how we should respond to something like this if we are carrying concealed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ECs8ZrmH8D8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
You are arguing a different issue. Yes, robberies may start as, or can evolve into, life-threatening events.



However, threat to life is not an element required to prove the crime of robbery.



If it were, then every DA would be required to prove the victim's life was threatened before a jury could convict. Since threat to life is not an element of the crime (although it may become a part of the crime) it does not need to be proven for conviction.



Take purse snatching. If the victim struggles to hold on to the purse so that the thief must jerk it loose, the common law and virtually all the American states find that a robbery has been committed. But threat to life is not required to convict.



That's it.



Best.

I knew you would bring up purse snatching. Bad example and not in context with this thread. I think most of us here are not old ladies with purses. Although I am sure some of those ladies may of felt their life was threatened. In my case I am a 200 pound 6 foot male, decent build that can bench well over his weight. There is not a scenario where someone could take my bike and gear through force or fear where I would view it as a non-life threatening manner. I say "I" and not the "Court" because my viewpoint and instincts in that moment is more important than what the court thinks. After all it is my life at risk, not the court's life. You are thinking like a lawyer and not like the person in an actual robbery situation which is not a good idea.

Let's say you are a victim in a robbery. A guy threatens to bust your knee cap with a bat if you do not hand over your bike. Do you feel your life is threatened or just your knee cap? Oh and are you legally allowed to draw your weapon and fire? While you are debating this in your head on the spot, I have already drawn my weapon. You second guessed yourself, he takes your bike, busts your knee cap any way, but decides to bust your head open as well because he just remembers he has two strikes against him, and knows you will go to the police and identify him if he lets you live.




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Old 02-10-2015, 4:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EGrove View Post
I knew you would bring up purse snatching.
(Sigh)

And I knew I could explain it to you but I wouldn't be able to understand it for you.

Put down whatever you like for whatever reason you like.

Please be sure to share your results.

Best.

Last edited by Dvrjon; 02-10-2015 at 4:57 PM..
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Old 04-21-2015, 2:26 PM
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Default Bicycle touring good enough reason for ccw permit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
(Sigh)



And I knew I could explain it to you but I wouldn't be able to understand it for you.



Put down whatever you like for whatever reason you like.



Please be sure to share your results.



Best.
In most situations a robbery will be life threatening. You are wrong and that is what you do not understand. The issue here is you are looking at this in the context of a court room proceeding, and I am looking at this as a would be victim of a robbery. I think that is the issue you are not grasping.

I understand what your saying. What I am saying is in a real world situation your mentality is incorrect. What experience do you have anyways besides perhaps taking a law class...or reading calguns.

I will put down self defense as advised from people in this thread. Appreciate your input.


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Old 04-21-2015, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EGrove View Post
What experience do you have anyways besides perhaps taking a law class...or reading calguns.
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EGrove View Post
I will put down self defense as advised from people in this thread. Appreciate your input.
(and who was the first person to suggest that?) Good to know you've finally decided to take my advice from Feb!

http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showp...54&postcount=2

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Old 04-24-2015, 9:45 PM
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The Op does not seem to be able to differentiate between being mad that his bike is being taken so he will shoot them vs in the act of taking his bike deadly force is used against him or he has a reasonable belief that deadly force is about to be used....

So as you say, if the bad dude has a bat and he says I'll break your knee if you don't let me take the bike.....NO you don't get to draw your gun and shoot him...you get to draw your gun and point it at him....then......if he raises that bat or does anything that makes you think he is going to use it
( remember you'll have to have a "reasonable" belief that he was going to use the bat) THEN you can shoot him

So the crux of the matter is...you cannot claim you need a gun so you won't get robbed because any robbery is de facto going to be a threat to your life....thats a Fail...escalating any and all robbery to a killing situation is going to paint you as rather trigger happy....the gun...whether its road rage, robbery, arson, Al Queda, that you are up against..the gun is blind to all that...its a tool you may use to protect yourself....so the key element involved is that you need to defend yourself against a real threat, in the moment, at that time.....what the person is doing...robbing you, stealing your bike, pissing on your campfire, is not the important factor....so claiming your bike riding as a matter of course means you need a gun on you is the wrong way to approach the permit process.......no, you don't have to try and figure out if he will just bust your knee or kill you...he cocks the bat and starts to swing, at any part of you, you can shoot him.....but your request to get a carry permit is not based on tailor made scenarios...its based on a PRINCIPLE....if you declare all robbery to be a killing situation...and then try to work backwards from there riding a bike in remote areas = possibly being robbed thus possibly being robbed = possibly being killed =need a gun.... you'll quickly discover you may need a gun sweeping your driveway at night, you need a gun parking in the lot at the supermarket ...the reasoning that I ride a bike in remote areas automatically leaps to "I need a gun" is not something an issuing agency may accept. In other words, there's nothing special about riding a bike that weighs into the decision. Of course, we all wish you could simply say "for self defense" . And maybe you can where you live....but if I were you I would not base it all on my bike riding of my expensive bike.
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Old 04-25-2015, 7:04 AM
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No "lol" here because I know what you're saying. I'm a triathlete and spend 2+ hrs a day on the road training. My CCW granted after I submitted accounts of me being "buzzed" by vehicles and verbally threatened. If you ride I'm sure it has happened to you - document it in your application. Some people with low self worth behind 2000lbs of steel going 40 mph think they are the incredible hulk with license to threaten and harass bike riders and runners. This is threatening someone with a deadly weapon.
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Old 04-25-2015, 1:46 PM
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No, OP, do NOT document being buzzed by vehicles. Do NOT put that on your application for an LTC and submit it to SSD. On second thought, go right ahead. Write 10 pages about your dire experiences with motorists whom you may need to shoot. The rest of us used a one sentence generalized self defense GC statement, but you should make yours really detailed and specific; heck, they'll probably give you the superduper enhanced LTC with the Double-0 prefix.
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Old 04-25-2015, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Godskid2 View Post
Some people with low self worth behind 2000lbs of steel going 40 mph think they are the incredible hulk with license to threaten and harass bike riders and runners. This is threatening someone with a deadly weapon.


Just out of curiosity, in what specific way do you figure carrying a concealed weapon would help you in that situation?
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Old 04-25-2015, 1:57 PM
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Default Bicycle touring good enough reason for ccw permit?

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Are you located in Sacramento? if yes then just self defense and protect my family I just got my approval in 9 days and I listed self defense.Good luck.

Read the rest of the thread. He was told that early on and decided he'd rather argue about when he can shoot someone. Then he accepted the advice and is presumably in the process now. I'm withholding my well wishes in this instance.
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Old 04-25-2015, 2:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy View Post
Read the rest of the thread. He was told that early on and decided he'd rather argue about when he can shoot someone. Then he accepted the advice and is presumably in the process now. I'm withholding my well wishes in this instance.
Thanks,my bad.
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Old 04-25-2015, 2:41 PM
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In reply to Old Bad Guy - obviously if a car or truck wanted to take me out while riding my bike I would be gone. Where I live in wine country it is popular for motorcycle clubs (Harley) to ride. You can hear them coming from far off, usually they are good folks who will return a nod as we are both out on the road riding solo. I have, however been harassed by riders. Two trying to take my water bottles from my bike as I rode along. If I were pushed off the road and stopped by a group of them I would carefully consider lethal force.
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Old 04-25-2015, 4:28 PM
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Default Bicycle touring good enough reason for ccw permit?

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Originally Posted by Godskid2 View Post
In reply to Old Bad Guy - obviously if a car or truck wanted to take me out while riding my bike I would be gone. Where I live in wine country it is popular for motorcycle clubs (Harley) to ride. You can hear them coming from far off, usually they are good folks who will return a nod as we are both out on the road riding solo. I have, however been harassed by riders. Two trying to take my water bottles from my bike as I rode along. If I were pushed off the road and stopped by a group of them I would carefully consider lethal force.
I ride those same areas, on a motorcycle. I've never harassed anyone--pedal bicyclist or otherwise--and I've never seen nor heard of what you're describing until now. But let's say you're being accurate and someone messed with you once. The probability of them knocking you off your bicycle and surrounding you with intent to rob, maim, or tear asunder, absent any avoidable provocation on your part, is virtually zero. This ain't a low budget 60's biker movie.

And yeah, before someone posts a link, I'm fully aware of the little crotch rocket gangsters vs. the family in a passenger vehicle in NY state a year or two ago. I could outline the differences, but I don't reckon that's necessary.
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Old 04-25-2015, 4:35 PM
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Default Bicycle touring good enough reason for ccw permit?

But...if it somehow transpired that a person was riding along minding his own business and was set upon by modersicle ruffians, yes, there are circumstances I can envision that would require that person to use lethal force in defense of his life. I can also envision such circumstances in dozens of other potential recreational situations, however remote the possibility may be of each. Sacramento County requires nothing more specific than self defense as GC, and last I checked, Napa County was effectively no-issue, as were Sonoma and Marin (especially Marin) and this wouldn't suffice as GC with them anyway. There are some counties that will issue with a more specific GC than simply stating "self defense," and I suppose it's possible that riding bicycles under certain conditions might work in a few of those counties if worded just right. Maybe. I'm not ruling out the possibility, anyway.
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Old 04-26-2015, 7:53 AM
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Not meant to characterize bikers in a bad light. I enjoy seeing bikers (check out their rides) and have good friends who ride, and like I said most folks will return a nod and give you space on the road. I have however been harassed and threatened more than once. Having someone screaming at your face 2 feet from you after he tries to steal from you leaves you asking "what if" questions.

Last edited by Godskid2; 04-26-2015 at 7:58 AM..
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Old 04-26-2015, 11:52 AM
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Just out of curiosity (and off topic), what happened leading up to all of that? Was it random and totally unexpected, or did it escalate from something initially more minor in nature? I'm obviously not making excuses for such behavior; it's just so contrary to my own experiences.
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Old 04-26-2015, 4:45 PM
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It was in the middle of a hot day (mid-90s). I was on a 3 hr ride on a long, straight stretch of road out in the Temecula wine country. I had 4 water bottles, two in the frame and 2 on an X-lab water carrier behind my saddle. The lead rider almost side swiped me, brushing me with his arm as he had slowed down reaching for one of my bottles. He then pounded his handlebar as if to say "damn it." About 10 other bikes went by behind him, then the last rider tried to do what the leader couldn't. Guess he was trying to earn his way up from being the last of the string. He missed as well and screamed profanity in my face, then sped up to the others. Crazy, as you said totally random and unexpected. I've been yelled at running as well. Guess people see you as being more vulnerable when you are out alone. Again, lots of good experiences with bikers here. At the hospital I work at a club for years has come around Christmas time to give presents to the kids who are admitted. Santa is usually some enormous dude. Too cool.

Last edited by Godskid2; 04-26-2015 at 4:49 PM..
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