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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #1  
Old 09-09-2012, 6:17 PM
Brian1979 Brian1979 is offline
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Default $10 tactical training? No its for real

Yup thats right got to shoot with a Grand Master today in my squad. Shot 6 stages for CCW scenario practice. It cost me an arm and a leg at $10. Not $300-400 with talking then a little shooting, just shooting.

So in terms of what I do regularly at USPSA style matches I would have to say it definitely sets me up to a better shooter regardless of what the situation is. I didnt have any issues being "tactical" and the only 2 misses I had were from behind the barrel head shots strong hand only. Distance was about 15yrds and that was difficult.

So this weekend I shot USPSA Saturday and felt like going tactical on Sunday and shot another match. Total Spent was $45 and I got to do a lot of shooting and tune my technique and check my gear. Total round count this weekend was about 350 using the same gun I actually CCW and using the gear I carry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiSYWXsen9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AptvNKmls-I

Another dice game. 2 brown squares with 3 numbers on each white target. 2 shots each. Your number dictates which brown square you shoot but any shots outside are in the "no shoot"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kgCRz77Fh0

Time was 5.09 on the first run and second run I pushed the accuracy and got a 4.08 but still stayed in the brown. That is a bit hard to shoot quickly and not pop a no shoot. Currently I dont think I can break 4 seconds and still stay accurate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GQFOj_d1dw

Have to shoot on the move while backing up 4 shots then 2 head shots from cover.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IJ4rnn83DA

Video started half way in. It was 4 shots strong had to the body and from cover 2 shots to head strong hand. I missed 1 of 2 on the head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmAGXxEYFG8

So the debate continues. More paid training or more trigger time? 800 rounds 4 matches a month of competition for $140 or 1 class a month for $300. You decide. Here is some of my first video from just over 3 years ago. I knew how to shoot, just never did it on the move and in so many positions. Every stage can relate to real world tactics if you let it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkN0HdP01Rw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-RPuA5ZPvU

Last edited by Brian1979; 09-09-2012 at 6:29 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-09-2012, 8:33 PM
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Would you care for a critique from a different perspective?
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:35 PM
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If you want to improve your shooting skills, shoot as many matches as possible AND practice for them (dryfire included).

If you want to increase your tactical skills and mindset then take training classes.

If you want to increase both skill sets, then do both.
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Old 09-10-2012, 5:20 AM
Brian1979 Brian1979 is offline
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Fast and accurate. Shooting is shooting. You can only take so many classes and that means much less time on the trigger.

I am still waiting for an idea of something challenging to try from you guys. Give me a course description and I will set it up and video my result.
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  #5  
Old 09-10-2012, 5:42 AM
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I am trying to be a gentleman here. If you are open to comment on what I saw in your videos, I will. That might be the basis for a good discussion.
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Old 09-10-2012, 6:27 AM
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LOL, you can say anything you want. At the end of the day its about what that timer says and where my hits are.

Its about shooting nothing else. If there is no cover available, which in a ccw scenario is very likely, then what are you going to do?

Funny part is what ever critique you have is nothing more then a few pointers and ideas. Its not a skill and its not something that paying hundreds of dollars on is going to make you a better shooter. Shooting fast and accurate wins all day long and if you tell me to use more cover and go slower more cautious then thats fine. Reloading again instead of showing clear and checking the world arent something I need to pay and learn. This has been my point all along so I am still scratching my head at what I am missing.

Please give me a scenario to shoot and let me know what you want to see. I am watching the vids you got as well as other trainers and I dont see anything difficult. Its some little movement and mostly static shots on target. There is mag retention and reloads with checking the world after and that isnt exactly anything that I need to pay and learn. Its a matter of doing it not a matter of learning it. My goal will be to do it faster with good hits. I just cant think of anything more difficult or "tactical" that makes you guys all warm and fuzzy. I asked the Grand Master who does much more then just game and his answer was the same. Faster and more accurate. First shot on target wins.

Last edited by Brian1979; 09-10-2012 at 6:36 AM..
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Old 09-10-2012, 7:09 AM
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After a certain amount of 'shooting' classes, you will see diminishing returns in taking additional classes for that goal/skill set. Take one if you feel like you are at a plateau or want to learn a new style (learning bullseye). It will help with the learning curve for that rule set (USPSA to IDPA). But keep practicing and going to matches, $30 in match fees plus ammo is a great way to spend a Saturday morning.

Now if you are talking 'tactical', please define 'tactical'. There is oh-so-much more than sight alignment and trigger press. If I use the 'tactics' at a USPSA match that I used last week to search houses, yards or a car...put away the shot timer and break out the hour glass. On the flip side, if I used match 'tactics' on any number of situations I recall off the top of my head, the outcome would have been very bad for myself and others.

In the broad scope, training is more than putting rounds down range in a fast and accurate fashion.

Last edited by mixicus; 09-10-2012 at 12:07 PM..
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Old 09-10-2012, 7:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
LOL, you can say anything you want. At the end of the day its about what that timer says and where my hits are.
...
I just cant think of anything more difficult or "tactical" that makes you guys all warm and fuzzy. I asked the Grand Master who does much more then just game and his answer was the same. Faster and more accurate. First shot on target wins.
I believe these statements might reveal that no discussion is possible, as you appear to be content with your prejudices.

Try evaluating the following from a a self-defense perspective though, and tell me what you think:
A "first accurate hit" doesn't prevent rounds coming the other way, unless it's a very accurate head shot right to the "walnut".

Good luck with that. There is no magic "hey I shot you first, so I win!" in the real world. People can and often do keep fighting after they've been dealt a mortal wound.

Aside from the "walnut shot", anything else means your opponent has from several seconds to several minutes to return fire or do you harm by some other means.

You might kill your opponent quicker while he's in the process of killing you slower in return, but that's not "survival" or "winning" in an actual fight.

Getting even 10 excellent hits and seeing him go down first is all fine and good. Congratulations ... you "won the match"! But it says nothing about his one lucky shot to your brachial or femoral artery (wow, not even in the A zone!). EMS will be there in 10-20 minutes. You'll bleed out and die in less than 2. No doubt your shooting buddies will laud your excellent skills. Your widow and orphaned kids might have a different perspective.

If survival is the goal, the first priority has to be not getting shot or stabbed. That should be your first job while trying to position yourself to employ weapons skills to end the fight or attack.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 09-10-2012 at 1:14 PM..
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Old 09-10-2012, 7:59 AM
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I got a Front sight lifetime membership for $49

I can take a 2 Day Handgun/shotgun/rifle course as much as I want. Plus he gave me a second lifetime membership to give as a gift for free.
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Old 09-10-2012, 9:32 AM
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Interestingly enough, a bona fide "Tier One" guy (both operationally and as an instructor) recently posted the following in an online article:

Quote:
"I shot IPSC for a couple of years and it helped with my draw, presentation, multiple shots and multiple targets. It did not help me with use of cover, tactical movement, tactical thinking, discrimination, etc. In the end, I moved to tactical training only. My simple shooting systems needed to encompass all these aspect and not just one narrow bandwidth of shooting a pistol. I cannot promote speed over safety or proper discrimination or proper use of cover."
I can't post or link to the entire article, as it is copyrighted and you have to subscribe in order to get the whole thing. The jist of the article is aptly summarized by the quoted text, although there are some finer points and supporting context in the complete piece. If we get far enough in this discussion, I'll post the name of the source. At this point, it's just "grist for the mill", as I found the quoted text to closely mirror my own sentiments ... albeit from a citizen self-defense perspective as opposed to military operations.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Interestingly enough, a bona fide "Tier One" guy (both operationally and as an instructor) recently posted the following in an online article:

Quote:
"I shot IPSC for a couple of years and it helped with my draw, presentation, multiple shots and multiple targets. It did not help me with use of cover, tactical movement, tactical thinking, discrimination, etc. In the end, I moved to tactical training only. My simple shooting systems needed to encompass all these aspect and not just one narrow bandwidth of shooting a pistol. I cannot promote speed over safety or proper discrimination or proper use of cover."
I can't post or link to the entire article, as it is copyrighted and you have to subscribe in order to get the whole thing.
Please provide instructor name and the quoted publication or online source.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mixicus View Post
After a certain amount of 'shooting' classes, you will see diminishing returns in taking additional classes for that goal/skill set. Take one if you feel like you are at a plateau or want to learn a new style (learning bullseye). It will help with the learning curve for that rule set (USPSA to IDPA). But keep practicing and going to matches, $30 in match fees plus ammo is a great way to spend a Saturday morning.

Now if you are talking 'tactical', please define 'tactical'. There is oh-so-much more than sight alignment and trigger press. If I use the 'tactics' at a USPSA match that I used last week to search houses, yards or a car...put away the shot timer and break out the hour glass. On the flip side, if I used match 'tactics' on any number of situations I recall off the top of my head, the outcome would have been very bad for myself and others.

In the broad scope, training is more than putting rounds down range in a fast and accurate fashion.
I agree with this.

As mentioned CCW and training for duty/combat are very different. I won't ever clear a house or work in a team so it's not what I practice. I think you nailed the differences but some people are obsessed with thinking they need this training as civilians.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:17 PM
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I got a Front sight lifetime membership for $49

I can take a 2 Day Handgun/shotgun/rifle course as much as I want. Plus he gave me a second lifetime membership to give as a gift for free.
Do you go once a week? Or even twice a month?

I wish I lived close to it or I certainly would for that deal.

Last edited by Brian1979; 09-10-2012 at 12:36 PM..
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:25 PM
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Please provide instructor name and the quoted publication or online source.
I'd prefer that people deal with the ideas expressed, rather than simply react to the source. The ideas are either good or bad on their own. The name and source will be revealed, I assure you ... just as soon as people weigh in on what was expressed.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
I agree with this.
Since I agree with mixicus' comments as well, it perplexes me that you do. In particular, I don't see how you can agree with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixicus View Post
... In the broad scope, training is more than putting rounds down range in a fast and accurate fashion.
while previously stating:
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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
... At the end of the day its about what that timer says and where my hits are. ...
... Its about shooting nothing else. ...
... Faster and more accurate. First shot on target wins.
^^^ In case you don't realize it, you're openly contradicting yourself. You either agree with mixicus' statement or not ... can't have it both ways.

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... As mentioned CCW and training for duty/combat are very different. ...
That's true, but I'd submit that competition is very different in many respects from both of them as well as typical LE scenarios. If your training consists of doing things over-n-over, every weekend, which don't work in real encounters, what are you training for? Are you suggesting you can spend 3 years, every weekend, training in a particular way, and suddenly you'll instinctively do it differently should the occasion arise? That goes against everything we know about human behavior.


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I won't ever clear a house or work in a team so it's not what I practice.
I own a house, my wife and I are a team. We have children. Don't presume to generalize your experience and needs as being universal.

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I think you nailed the differences but some people are obsessed with thinking they need this training as civilians.
What training are you specifically speaking of? As mixicus noted ... "define tactical". It's not necessarily a military connotation, numsayin'?

While we are at it ...
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... Shot 6 stages for CCW scenario practice. It cost me an arm and a leg at $10. Not $300-400 with talking then a little shooting, just shooting. ...
Seriously? Do you have any idea how silly that sounds to anyone who has taken any serious training? Wow - 6 whole stages!?! What is that ... 6 presentations total, or did you do each twice for a grand total of 12? REALITY CHECK TIME: Many classes would have you shooting much more than than that in the first few hours, let alone the rest of the class. Contrary to your imagined scenario, most of the classes I've attended do more actual shooting over a 2-day period than what you've stated you do in a month. I don't know about you, but my time is pretty valuable to me. If you have a contrary opinion about something ... fine. Just please do us the courtesy of fact-checking your statements and not engaging in raw speculation.

And let's be clear (for about the 12th time) ... I am not putting you or your sport down. I think competition is valuable. It's something I need to add to my training program. My only contention is that it's not the whole of the thing, so far as training to use a firearm for self-defense. In other words, as mixicus said earlier: "... training is more than putting rounds down range in a fast and accurate fashion."
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 09-10-2012 at 1:10 PM..
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Old 09-10-2012, 1:08 PM
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Is there a backstory here... some ongoing feud?
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Old 09-10-2012, 1:19 PM
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Is there a backstory here... some ongoing feud?
There shouldn't be a feud. Generally the friction is between two factions:
  • Those who believe that competition shooting - IDPA, IPSC, etc. - amounts to the "end-all/be-all, don't need anything else ever!" of training.
  • Those who generally disagree with the above statement, finding value in self-defense, combat or "tactical" classes ... or alternately Force-on-Force training.

Something like that, anyway. I'd also submit that it's probably all a lot friendlier than it may seem. I certainly consider everyone involved a "brother, of sorts", lol.
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Old 09-10-2012, 1:33 PM
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I agree with him because the game is fast and accurate based. If I were to clear a house it would be slow and cautious which is much different.

Being ABLE to be fast and accurate is a bonus and I dont see many tactical guys doing that because they probably can't. My point remains that competition will give all the shooting skills you need and tactical stuff is not much more then talking about tactics and implementing them. Look at your vids of all talking and opinions which you learned through all the training you paid for. I just don't see the value in paying to talk about shooting but find it very accessible and easy to learn some tactics related to what myself as a CCW holder could encounter.
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Old 09-10-2012, 2:34 PM
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I agree with him because the game is fast and accurate based. If I were to clear a house it would be slow and cautious which is much different.
But which have you trained to do for 3 years ... over-n-over every weekend? You aren't really answering my question in this regard ... how do you repeatedly train to do one thing and then suddenly find yourself adept at doing something completely different? For 3 years, over-n-over, every weekend (it seems) you've been racing from target to target without any concern for the possibility of rounds coming back your way, flinging your body right into what would be the line-of-fire, showing zero concern for things like using cover correctly, standing there out in the open against multiple assailants. How is it that you suggest you are prepared to do anything else?

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Being ABLE to be fast and accurate is a bonus ...
Clearly it is. Nobody has suggested that it's not important. Increasing speed and accuracy are a constant theme of every course I've personally attended.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
... and I dont see many tactical guys doing that because they probably can't.
I'm sure you are correct in some cases, and others not. But, if "fast and accurate" is only a subset of the skills necessary to survive an attack ... maybe not even the most important ones, why is that necessarily a problem? My BMW 5 series goes from 0-60 much faster than my 4x4 SUV ... if you fixate on 1/4 mile speed/time as the ONLY point of comparison between the two vehicles, you're missing the point. Capisce? Numsayin'? Comprende?


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My point remains that competition will give all the shooting skills you need and tactical stuff is not much more then talking about tactics and implementing them.
If we are talking about the raw mechanics of shooting, we agree.

If you believe that "tactical stuff" is all just talking ... sorry, there's a lot of practice involved. You can't even do it all in class. You have to practice it just as much as you'd practice trigger press and sight alignment. If you haven't been doing it, and especially if you've been doing something else over-n-over-n-over, you won't suddenly do it correctly when called upon. I can't account for why you believe something which is at odds with everything we know about human nature as applied to learning physical skills.

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Look at your vids of all talking and opinions which you learned through all the training you paid for.
What is it you think I am trying to do in those videos? It seems you are looking at them in entirely the wrong way.

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I just don't see the value in paying to talk about shooting but find it very accessible and easy to learn some tactics related to what myself as a CCW holder could encounter.
I think money is probably your biggest stumbling block, as it's something you mention over-n-over. You don't pay to "talk about shooting". This once again reveals a bias and blind spot on your part. You'd probably be surprised to know that I shot over 1000 rounds of 5.56 and about 400 of 9mm in a recent 2-day carbine class. That's not an unusual rounds count at all. A typical 2-day pistol class involves over 1k rounds, several dozen exercises/drills and a uncountable number of draws/presentations, malfunction clearances, etc. Saying that this is "paying to talk about shooting" is ridiculous.

I don't discount that what you do in competition has worth. You can clearly shoot that gun! I would however, add that much of what I saw in the videos posted at the start of this thread causes me great concern for your survival in an actual self-defense incident. That's not me being snarky or condescending, either. You just don't know what you don't know.
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Old 09-10-2012, 2:48 PM
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Do not get me wrong.. I see the value of competitions and have competed myself.

But understand that attending a match may be very inexpensive, you also spend a great deal of time waiting to shoot, or brassing up and taping targets.
Add up the actual time you spend shooting and you may see that for the time investment in relation to actually shooting you do formal training may be a better way to spend your time.
For an multi stage match, along with 3-5 hours spent you may only be on the trigger for less than 2 mins total. Not that there is no value in watching others, just that you actually get very little time shooting.
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Old 09-10-2012, 6:46 PM
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ZT

Do you actually carry a gun daily? I cant imagine you would because nobody in their right mind would post that many vids about self defense that will be later used against them in court. If you do CCW then I understand what I am dealing with now.
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Old 09-10-2012, 6:52 PM
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... Do you actually carry a gun daily? I can't imagine you would because nobody in their right mind would post that many vids about self defense that will be later used against them in court. If you do CCW then I understand what I am dealing with now.
Why are you changing the subject?
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Old 09-10-2012, 8:12 PM
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You should go back to prado IDPA.
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Old 09-10-2012, 8:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
I'd prefer that people deal with the ideas expressed, rather than simply react to the source. The ideas are either good or bad on their own. The name and source will be revealed, I assure you ... just as soon as people weigh in on what was expressed.
Poppycock ala déjà vu all over again. If you pretend to be an authority in training, even on a personal basis minus the lame disclaimer in your CalGuns signature ad, then you need to document your references. You are inherently driving content to your website/YouTube channel. You're being comped courses. Unless you reveal your "instructors" in might and/or volume you're riding the wave per your curriculum.

A quoted standalone statement (worthy or not) is diminished greatly unless sourced.
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:30 PM
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Not this sh*t again...

In general, I agree with Zombie Tactics.

He was very reasonable in the previous threads, and his arguments are well thought and presented.

Brian, in watching your videos, you seem to have very good basic mechanicals, but in reading your posts, you have defeated yourself mentally because you think that your performance in USPSA will equate to real life encounters. What you are doing is not training. You are practicing a certain skillset that applies to what you are doing in that competition. Practice is good. Realistic practice is better.

I will readily defend (go back to my posts in other threads) the value of competition and it's utility to realistic practice, but I also understand it's limitations. There is only so much that you can do in a structured competition.

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In the broad scope, training is more than putting rounds down range in a fast and accurate fashion.
I absolutely agree with this.

I done a lot of force on force training and have seen what works and what doesn't. I've run FATS training where I've seen good shooters fall apart because the student thought they knew what to expect.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread. Get training from a variety of sources. Take what you can and apply it to your circumstance. Practice it, but be adaptable.

The past few years, I've been really big on mindset.
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:52 PM
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Anyone who thinks more trigger time is not a benefit is a complete moron...
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:05 PM
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Practice dry, static/square range, a wide variety of tactical / self-defense training courses, competitive shooting static (ALA GSSF) and dynamic (IDPA, USPSA), force-on-force including simunitions and AirSoft, standards (classifiers so you know how you rank objectively with your weapon system) and above all else OFTEN. There's no magic elixir if you want it ALL for both fast, accurate shooting with the correct self-defense mindset. You cannot have it all by taking shortcuts. Variety is the spice along with quality and quantity. Nothing I haven't said before. Hate to sound like a broken record.
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DannyInSoCal View Post
Anyone who thinks more trigger time is not a benefit is a complete moron...
Trigger time, in and of itself, is meaningless.

Have a realistic goal and practice towards that goal. There is a point of diminishing returns where additional trigger time is not helpful.

The big argument that's been going 'round is how much value can you get from competition shooting vs. formal training.

The answer is somewhere in between.

Last edited by USM0083; 09-10-2012 at 11:26 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-10-2012, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Practice dry, static/square range, a wide variety of tactical / self-defense training courses, competitive shooting static (ALA GSSF) and dynamic (IDPA, USPSA), force-on-force including simunitions and AirSoft, standards (classifiers so you know how you rank objectively with your weapon system) and above all else OFTEN. There's no magic elixir if you want it ALL for both fast, accurate shooting with the correct self-defense mindset. You cannot have it all by taking shortcuts. Variety is the spice along with quality and quantity. Nothing I haven't said before. Hate to sound like a broken record.
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Old 09-11-2012, 5:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
... A quoted standalone statement (worthy or not) is diminished greatly unless sourced.
It seems to me that ideas stand or fall on their own, for people who value ideas over hero worship. Pretty easy to fix ... people discuss the content and I'll state the source. If nobody is interested in discussing the ideas, the source is irrelevant. It just becomes a contest of who can find "cool gun guy" quotes otherwise.

As for the the rest of your post ... insults are not arguments. I'm not the issue, nor should I be. I'd thought you better than to engage in ad-hominem attacks. Imagine my disappointment.
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Old 09-11-2012, 5:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Why are you changing the subject?
Why would one take race car driver courses if they dont drive a race car? Why would one take carbine courses and learn to clear a house if they arent a cop or soldier? And if that person did CCW or get involved in a justified shooting why would they publish all their opinions/views on youtube so it can be picked apart.

So right now we are at the point where practice is practice and I am only good at what I train in. So as I have asked before please give me something that will make me fall apart and challenge me to some magic you guys know that I dont. I have asked the best shooters and guys that do this for real and we can not come up with something.

Understand that I am not so much dogging your method of training I am dogging the outcome of it. I dont see anything worth paying for from the vids on your channel or other trainers for that matter. There are a few trainers doing some great times and good hits but nothing that I cant already do. It seem like this magic skill you guys have is often talked about in general but never in detail or caught on video. I get to hang out with Grand Master and A class shooters who I want to be able to shoot like one day. Watching what goes on in these tactical classes doesnt do anything for me and make me excited about something I want to do just like them. Go back 3 years and then yes if my first experience was tactical classes I would think that is the best there is but instead I got welcomed into the USPSA world where I get to see people who can really shoot.

Clearing malfunctions is a thing of the past and at some point during a match I have cleared all of them with out first being told its going to happen. I shoot from all positions, distances, and while moving. I practice my draw and use my gear to test it every week. If I needed to shoot a course slowly and move cautiously through a shoot house I dont understand where the difficulty comes from after maybe 1-2 instructions of how to do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bBy-...ure=plpp_video
Oh my God you shot at turning targets. (7:15) You have to be kidding me with this crap. I dont see where you guys perform like this then make a fancy sig line to come on here and knock competition. Now the simulation training was of value and that is something I would gladly sign up for. The rest of it looks like all newbies learning how to hold a gun and that video was posted just a year ago. You drew from a tactical vest and placed shots on target in what looked like 2 seconds at 3 yrds, that is terrible.

Last edited by Brian1979; 09-11-2012 at 6:35 AM..
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Old 09-11-2012, 7:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
Why would one take race car driver courses if they dont drive a race car? Why would one take carbine courses and learn to clear a house if they arent a cop or soldier? And if that person did CCW or get involved in a justified shooting why would they publish all their opinions/views on youtube so it can be picked apart.
You're setting up a classic "double-bind" question, Brian ... i.e. "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Your reasoning goes like this: IF I don't carry, I shouldn't express an opinion or put up videos regarding something I don't do. IF I do carry, I shouldn't express an opinion or put up videos because some prosecutor might try to frame that in a negative context.

I'll put it to you this way: I don't generally talk about what I carry or if or when or how ... concealed means concealed, even in speech. I have something like 150 videos up, quite a few of which have nothing to do with guns or self-defense at all. As you've noted, the vast majority of my stuff doesn't even show any shooting. I project the image of a gregarious, friendly, harmless 52-year-old family man discussing all sorts of different things which interest me. In some of my videos I can be seen training alongside members of law enforcement, none of whom has ever expressed any concern about my mindset or psychological condition. In a couple of my vids I openly discuss the need to avoid conflict wherever possible, even to the point of personal embarrassment, so as to prevent the need to employ deadly force. I also go to church, soccer games, gymnastics tournaments and band competitions with my kids on the weekends. If some prosecutor wants to make something of that ... he can have at it.

On the other hand, you've put up 113 (and appear in hundreds of others) videos where you show yourself shooting-and-shooting-and-shooting-and-shooting. By your own admission, that's something you've done every weekend for over 3 years. It's seemingly all you ever do. You've repeatedly said things in this forum to the effect of "being fast and accurate is all that matters". I think that same prosecutor could easily paint you as an "obsessed gun nut, itching for a chance to shoot someone for real ... so obsessed with speed and accuracy that he didn't even pause to consider whether it was necessary to shoot". But honestly, we all know that's not you, so it would be a hard case to make.

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So right now we are at the point where practice is practice and I am only good at what I train in.
That's not applied only to you, Brian. It affects us all. I readily admit I have some work to do in the "speed and precision" end of things, for instance. The real point is that you can't expect to be able to X effectively if all you've practiced is Y & Z.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
So as I have asked before please give me something that will make me fall apart and challenge me to some magic you guys know that I dont. I have asked the best shooters and guys that do this for real and we can not come up with something.
I'd start with what you already acknowledge:
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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
... I did realize there are some things I should not be doing because of what we do in a match that I need to work out ... there are some things that I know how to do but my brain chokes because of habits formed though competition. I will do some of my own drills and be sure and carry those things over back into the match. ...
Your words, Brian, not mine. You also made some great observations about how some trainers do after-action drills in an automated way. So don't so that!

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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
Understand that I am not so much dogging your method of training I am dogging the outcome of it. I dont see anything worth paying for from the vids on your channel or other trainers for that matter.
And I am not "dogging" competition, I simply suggesting that there are other things you need to add to the mix. The "outcome" you see is colored by the fact that you are fixated on gaining speed/accuracy as the only point of value. My fixation is on surviving a fight, and getting home that night alive. My ability to quickly/accurately shoot might be a big part of that, but it's not the ONLY part, and maybe not even the biggest one.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
There are a few trainers doing some great times and good hits but nothing that I cant already do.
See what I mean? The ONLY thing you perceive to be of value is speed/accuracy. Forest vs. Trees, Depth vs. Width, Brian.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
It seem like this magic skill you guys have is often talked about in general but never in detail or caught on video.
It's difficult to capture some things on video, that's for sure. (See below regarding FoF exercises)

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Originally Posted by Brian1979 View Post
Now the simulation training was of value and that is something I would gladly sign up for. ...
Those are probably the most basic FoF exercises I've participated in. I'm absolutely not bragging, but I was the only student in the class who "got it right" in both cases. It's not becuase I am awesome or special or anything, it's just because I was more practiced at reading the situation and reacting accordingly than the others. I'd really like to hear additional comments from you regarding what you saw in those excerpts, as I think they'd be a less contentious area for discussion.

ALSO FWIW: Your shooting skills are solid enough that it's doubtful you'd benefit much from the typical "Defensive Handgun 101" course. You'd benefit most from participation in well-designed FoF classes, especially since you seem more open and interested in that regard.
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Last edited by ZombieTactics; 09-11-2012 at 8:54 AM.. Reason: spelling, grammar, clarity
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Old 09-11-2012, 8:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Practice dry, static/square range, a wide variety of tactical / self-defense training courses, competitive shooting static (ALA GSSF) and dynamic (IDPA, USPSA), force-on-force including simunitions and AirSoft, standards (classifiers so you know how you rank objectively with your weapon system) and above all else OFTEN. There's no magic elixir if you want it ALL for both fast, accurate shooting with the correct self-defense mindset. You cannot have it all by taking shortcuts. Variety is the spice along with quality and quantity. Nothing I haven't said before. Hate to sound like a broken record.
+1 I agree with ramzar and USM0083.

OP, keep an open mind and you'll progress quicker, if you wish.
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Old 09-11-2012, 9:09 AM
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It seems to me that ideas stand or fall on their own, for people who value ideas over hero worship. Pretty easy to fix ... people discuss the content and I'll state the source. If nobody is interested in discussing the ideas, the source is irrelevant. It just becomes a contest of who can find "cool gun guy" quotes otherwise.
Sourcing it adds credibility to the "idea" and also sometimes quotes can be taken out of context so sourcing it will allow one to study further that "idea" and also within the background of the source.

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As for the the rest of your post ... insults are not arguments. I'm not the issue, nor should I be. I'd thought you better than to engage in ad-hominem attacks. Imagine my disappointment.
No insults intended unless you choose to read it that way. Those were statements based upon your reviews and other writings.
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Old 09-11-2012, 9:22 AM
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I have been at some matches where some "tactical" guys were shooting. They were moving in slow motion because "they were being tactical" I think alot of times these tactical courses forget that speed is a tactic and the first one to start sending rounds into the target has a far greater chance of "winning".

I also heard an instructor say something like (cover isn't always an option, so you might have to make your own cover with this) holding up his gun.
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Old 09-11-2012, 9:23 AM
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Sourcing it adds credibility to the "idea" and also sometimes quotes can be taken out of context so sourcing it will allow one to study further that "idea" and also within the background of the source. ...
I get your point, but ideas still stand/fall on their own nonetheless. So, discuss already. Let me know what you think, regardless of who said it. If you think it's right/wrong/other, should it matter whether it's a quote from James Yeager, Travis Haley, Larry Vickers or someone else? I don't think I'm taking anything out-of-context, although I'll state (as previously) that there are finer points to what was quoted.
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Old 09-11-2012, 9:34 AM
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I get your point, but ideas still stand/fall on their own nonetheless. So, discuss already. Let me know what you think, regardless of who said it. If you think it's right/wrong/other, should it matter whether it's a quote from James Yeager, Travis Haley, Larry Vickers or someone else? I don't think I'm taking anything out-of-context, although I'll state (as previously) that there are finer points to what was quoted.
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Interestingly enough, a bona fide "Tier One" guy (both operationally and as an instructor) recently posted the following in an online article:

Quote:
"I shot IPSC for a couple of years and it helped with my draw, presentation, multiple shots and multiple targets. It did not help me with use of cover, tactical movement, tactical thinking, discrimination, etc. In the end, I moved to tactical training only. My simple shooting systems needed to encompass all these aspect and not just one narrow bandwidth of shooting a pistol. I cannot promote speed over safety or proper discrimination or proper use of cover."
I can't post or link to the entire article, as it is copyrighted and you have to subscribe in order to get the whole thing.
I use a similar approach but it was only after I expanded my horizons. You need variety in training plus quality, quantity and of course frequency (keep the rust away from some perishable skills).

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Actually, always have since Fall of 2010. I have a balanced approach to training. I started competitive shooting in August 2010 with GSSF indoor and outdoor, IDPA and USPSA. I also incorporate a lot of competition drills and classifiers into my regular training and keep logs. I've had classes with Mike Dalton of ISI (IDPA club# is 7) as well as many tactical instructors with strong background and proponents of competitive shooting. I don't participate in many matches though because they take up so much time for so few rounds and actually shooting. Still, I try. I shoot more IDPA than USPSA due to better use of tactics for the former. USPSA is better for making you shoot faster. What we do is rent ISI during the week about 1-2 times a month (although there are periods of inactivity). This way we get to run the various stages of the previous weekend along with our regular training. We further complicate things by running these stages with dummy rounds interspersed within the magazines. It affords us good practice for malfunctions and seeking cover (if you have it). A good training regimen incorporates the best of all worlds and is catered to the shooter's personal needs.
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To me variety in training with reputable & safe outfits is one of the keys to improving your skills and becoming more consistent. To me consistency is the key above all. So, why not stay with just one outfit? Tried it because it was closest to me, I enjoyed myself and it was fun. However, I was not improving much and money was being wasted. I had hit a wall. As soon as I started going to many more outfits I had a remarkable improvement in fairly short order. So, in effect, you can take a short cut by doing that. I also added more static and dynamic range time on my own and with shooting buddies. A timer is one of the greatest tools for both static and dynamic ranges. You have to run the same drills once every 1-2 months to see where you’re at. The 10-8 Pistol Test and IDPA Classifier are two great ones. Need time and misses per stage. Strengths and weaknesses are thus highlighted and you have your homework. Also, you need to practice often (dry practice, static range, dynamic range and training courses) to keep the rusticles away!

It’s great that GGT has brought so many great and renowned instructors to SoCal. Of course, I wish I had known about them sooner (my first class was not until Nov. 2010). Through them I have taken Jason Falla (twice), Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, Mike Pannone and TigerSwan. This year I’m scheduled for Pat McNamara, Northern Red (J.D. Potynsky), Kyle Defoor and Dave Harrington.

Another big benefit was when Chris Costa came to SoCal with his new company Costa Ludus and conducted two 3-day classes: Advanced Carbine (Carbine Employment 2) and Advanced Handgun (Handgun Employment 2). Some of the best training I’ve ever had. Unfortunately, I had never taken a class with Magpul Dynamics although I've watched their DVDs several times. You sure can learn a lot from DVDs as well. Not a substitute for actual training but great to review and do slow mo.
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Old 09-11-2012, 9:52 AM
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I have been at some matches where some "tactical" guys were shooting. They were moving in slow motion because "they were being tactical" I think alot of times these tactical courses forget that speed is a tactic and the first one to start sending rounds into the target has a far greater chance of "winning".
This is why I can never completely write you off, man. You say insulting, trollish things from time-to-time, but then you go and say something really smart.

Yes, there are "tactical guys" who go way too slow and do stupid things. If I saw someone actually "moving in slow motion", I'd laugh my head off. Speed is definitely a tactic, so is movement, so is cover. Using them correctly is the key. I don't think you can learn that from a IDPA or USPSA competition though, because there isn't any real "feedback" to tell you that you "did it wrong" FoF works pretty well for that, as welts and marker hits are pretty unambiguous indicators ... much more reliable indicators of survival than time on a clock, IMHO.

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I also heard an instructor say something like (cover isn't always an option, so you might have to make your own cover with this) holding up his gun.
In the land of infinite maybes, anything is possible. Sure enough ... rounds flying in the direction of your opponent might affect his ability to do the same in return. I suppose that's a form of "cover", but then again people soak up rounds and keep fighting with startling regularity. Killing him quickly while he kills you slower isn't a "win" in my book. BTW, How does that work if the "exercise" starts with a gun in his hand, and yours in a IWB holster under concealment? Gonna outdraw that? I'd like to see it. Maybe "fast and accurate" isn't the solution in that case?
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Old 09-11-2012, 9:58 AM
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I use a similar approach but it was only after I expanded my horizons. You need variety in training plus quality, quantity and of course frequency (keep the rust away from some perishable skills).
Then (also including your other quoted statements by reference) I am stymied as to where you and actually disagree about any of this, except at the margins.

Further observations: Despite your "null and void" comments, I continue to find value in your perspective. Part of that is that you are - usually, lol - able to actually convey information rather than simply participate in "one upmanship drills". It's also clear to me that you are one of the few people I know who trains with greater regularity and variety than I do. I envy your financial means and schedule flexibility! Your perspective is one which helped me to recognize value in competition participation, which I previously viewed as "gun games for old guys with attitudes and floppy hats".
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Old 09-11-2012, 10:00 AM
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I have had a great FoF training idea for a while, the ENTIRE day is a simulation. Once you are inside the "facility" an attack can come at any time in any way. The lunch area the rest area the coffee macine, the toilet.
The idea is never to get the students together and say" ok you two go in and clear the room"

Maybe the lights go out and a window breaks and it's on.
any planning and or staging in FoF turns it into a game.
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