Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > INTERESTS AND ACTIVITIES > Competition, Action Shooting And Training.
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 02-17-2012, 3:12 PM
SuperSet SuperSet is offline
Vendor/Retailer
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: OC/DC
Posts: 9,099
iTrader: 41 / 100%
Default

Thx for posting your great AAR! It provides some insight to his methods, reasoning and teaching style. I haven't trained with him so only based on what I saw in his Panteao video, he heavily concentrates on the fundamentals and is methodical about his approach. I do wish that he'd be a little more expeditionary in his training methods, though.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-17-2012, 7:15 PM
Jack's Smirking Revenge Jack's Smirking Revenge is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 229
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Thanks for the great AAR! A Paul Howe course is at the top of my list.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-17-2012, 8:26 PM
Kempfer Kempfer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Diego/LA
Posts: 176
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
Kempfer

Whatever you decide to get just remember if you have it mounted on the head to turn if it off when your done filming. Don't forget like I did and then go take a leak in the bushes. That vid won't make it on youtube.
lol! Epic. Good advice!
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-18-2012, 6:52 AM
Clee's Avatar
Clee Clee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 396
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

As many of you can tell by my join date, 2008, and the fact that I have only about 150 posts as of this post, you can tell I'm not very active on this board. I often just lurk and read posts rather than join them. On some occassions I will comment, if I have something to contribute, or like many here, will post to try and make someone laugh with (what I think is) a witty remark. When I started this thread I had no ideal another post was going on that specifically mentions Paul until finished reading this one:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=534657

It was not until i read Jack's Smirking Revenge's post that I found this post that mentions Paul directly:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...hp?t=532564Its

Zombie its obvious your a fan of the other guy but it seems to me that you might have something against Paul. In this post you have made two comments I thought were rather snide or smug. You try and mask it by ending the posts with "genuine hero, great guy, he knows his stuff etc..." but I see right through that. Paul certainly doesn't need me defending him but I'm calling you out on the following comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZombieTactics View Post
Which one? Paul uses the term somewhat fluidly. I recall reading an article where we detailed what he called a "100-yard zero", but it was actually POA/POI at about 25 meters, and 3-4 inches high at 100 yards. That's actually pretty close to a standard 300-yard Marine zero, but apparently Paul's eyes glaze over when anyone tries to explain that to him ... kind of an "ours go to 11" kind of thing, if you take my meaning.

Dude knows his stuff, I'm just curious.
I'd like to read this "article" you speak of, so show it to everyone here. I'd find it odd that a Delta Assaulter, then Delta Sniper and then Delta lead instructor and then back to a Delta Sniper (I believe if I recall correctly that was how his Delta years went, someone correct me if I got it wrong) would not undertsand a 100 yard zero. So please enlighten us.

Last edited by Clee; 02-18-2012 at 8:01 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-18-2012, 8:26 AM
ZombieTactics's Avatar
ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Roseville area, or wherever they pay my confiscatory rates for things only I know how to do (lol)
Posts: 3,694
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
... Zombie its obvious your a fan of the other guy but it seems to me that you might have something against Paul. In this post you have made two comments I thought were rather snide or smug. You try and mask it by ending the posts with "genuine hero, great guy, he knows his stuff etc..." but I see right through that. Paul certainly doesn't need me defending him but I'm calling you out on the following comment:
I don't know what to say except "you're wrong". I consider myself a fan of Paul Howe. If I were not, I wouldn't have all three of his $50 Panteao videos in my collection. You should too, BTW. I am actively making plans to train with him in Texas. For someone you think I am "against", he's sure getting a good bit of my money.

Quote:
I'd like to read this "article" you speak of, so show it to everyone here. I'd find it odd that a Delta Assaulter, then Delta Sniper and then Delta lead instructor and then back to a Delta Sniper (I believe if I recall correctly that was how his Delta years went, someone correct me if I got it wrong) would not undertsand a 100 yard zero. So please enlighten us.
It's very likely the mistake is mine. I'll find the article and post a link ... look for the edit. My comments go strictly to the point that I've had conversations with people who've trained with Paul, and commented along these lines. Regarding the 100-yard zero, it appeared to me that he was calling something with a POI 3 inches above POA at 100, ... a 100 yard zero or his version of it, and that it really amounted to a 25-yard zero confirmed for actual (3" high) POI at 100. The article will probably make it clear as to how I could possibly get that idea, as well as where I should have read more carefully.

EDIT: This is not the exact article I recall reading, but it's close enough. CLICK HERE Maybe I have it wrong, but Paul calls something a "deliberate 3 inch offset" at 100-yards. That particular zero hits POI=POA at 25 yards. I make no other comment in this regard. Make of it what you will.

I think what confuses people is that I can simultaneously be a fan of someone without worshiping them and treating them like every word which comes from their mouth is sacred. For instance I guarantee you that when Jeff Cooper has written something about mindset ... I'm all ears/eyes. Simultaneously, I ignore almost anything he has to say about ballistics, because he demonstrated on more than one occasion that he really hasn't a clue in that regard. If you think I am a James Yeager "fanboi", you are mistaken on that as well. I regularly piss off Yeager on his forum. I am a student of many, a disciple of none.

I look up to Paul Howe. He's a better man than I will ever be from all accounts. Nonetheless, he is still a man, and puts his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us. Surely there is no insult in the latter observation, given the absolute reality of the former.

If you are trying to pick a fight owing to a disagreement on some other issue ... please don't. I'm not playing.
__________________
|

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE

Last edited by ZombieTactics; 02-18-2012 at 12:29 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-18-2012, 3:37 PM
Clee's Avatar
Clee Clee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 396
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

ZombieTactics,
Interesting. You have Howeís video where he clearly explains his 100 yard zero, BTW I do own his vids. 100 yard with "deliberate 3 inch offset" is clearly different than 100 yard zero.

You make comments like ďeyes glazed overÖĒ ďours go to 11ÖĒ For the record Paul never glazed over anyone in my class, even if he disagreed with him. So Iíll wait till you find that article or post where he did it to someone, please show us all.

Also you claim on the other thread he violates his own safety rules in his videos. If and when you go see him be sure to mention to him what violations occurred, Iím sure he would like to hear them.

Now whether you intended to do so or not you came across as smug with little digs. They werenít blatant but they were digs. If you donít see that then you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror. I think its rather telling that someone boasts (twice already that I know of- one here in this thread and again in the photographer thread) that you regularly pisses off Yeager in his own forum. I donít know what youíre trying to prove by that comment. Itís rather smug to enter someoneís ďhouseĒ to regularly piss him off, no?

If you take this as a fight it is not. If I wanted to engage in a ďfightĒ I would have done so in the photographer thread. Iím just trying to show you where Iím coming from and how you appear to me on this thread. Judging by the other comments on the other threads I posted Iím pretty sure Iím not alone. If Iím wrong then Iím wrong.

That being said how about we get back on topic. If you like to rebut anything I wrote Iíll give you the last word then letís move back to topic.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-18-2012, 4:45 PM
ZombieTactics's Avatar
ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Roseville area, or wherever they pay my confiscatory rates for things only I know how to do (lol)
Posts: 3,694
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
ZombieTactics,
Interesting. You have Howe’s video where he clearly explains his 100 yard zero, BTW I do own his vids. 100 yard with "deliberate 3 inch offset" is clearly different than 100 yard zero.
It sure is. It appears to me to be POA/POI at 25 yards ... which we'd normally call a 25-yard zero. If that is at least not a possible point of confusion, I don't know what is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
You make comments like “eyes glazed over…” “ours go to 11…” For the record Paul never glazed over anyone in my class, even if he disagreed with him.
I noted earlier that this was based upon conversations with people who had attended one of Paul's classes. One of the guys asked Paul something to the effect of "how is a zero which crosses zero at 25-yards not a 25-yard zero?" They received something of a confused expression and "well, see basically I am zeroing for a 3 inch offset at 100, which crosses zero at 25". (I saw that as a "mine goes to 11" moment, if you get the reference) Nothing cutting, biting or insulting was meant ... just a funny moment. Now, I dunno if you shoot rifles or not, but please go bench a standard AR15, get some M855 and M193 ... and let me know how to get that result: something close to POA/POI at 25 yards and 3" high at 100 yards. You'll find it's pretty darned close to what the Marines call a 300-yard zero ... a little bit off. Call me confused. I'm happy to have it explained to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
So I’ll wait till you find that article or post where he did it to someone, please show us all.
I linked a PDF of Paul's sighting methods. I never claimed to have an article or video documenting the conversation. If that was not clear it should be now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
Also you claim on the other thread he violates his own safety rules in his videos. If and when you go see him be sure to mention to him what violations occurred, I’m sure he would like to hear them.
You missed it, alrighty. My point was to the effect that he is a proponent of AIWB carry, as documented in his Advanced Tac Pistol/Rifle video in the "Today's Equipment" section, right about 11:19, after he talks about his fondness for the Grip Force adapter. (Yes, I have the videos). Go ahead and take a look at how that gun points right AT his junk.

If you check the context of my comments, they were not slams or insults against Paul, but simply offered (to those citing Paul as an authority) as examples of how nobody perfectly follows ALL of the safety rules ALL of the time. I'm a proponent of AIWB carry myself, BTW ... which probably makes both Paul and I idiots according to some ... cue the Plaxico jokes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
Now whether you intended to do so or not you came across as smug with little digs. They weren’t blatant but they were digs. If you don’t see that then you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror.
I write rather tersely, which I am sure comes across as "smug" at times. Not sure how to help that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
I think its rather telling that someone boasts (twice already that I know of- one here in this thread and again in the photographer thread) that you regularly pisses off Yeager in his own forum.
Is that a boast, or simply a statement of fact running contrary to the notion that I am a Yeager fanboi?

Quote:
If you take this as a fight it is not.
OK good, glad we got that cleared up.

Paul's a good guy and runs a good school ... hope that doesn't "come off the wrong way"
__________________
|

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE

Last edited by ZombieTactics; 02-18-2012 at 6:40 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-18-2012, 8:25 PM
Matt P Matt P is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Fresno, Calif.
Posts: 2,834
iTrader: 174 / 100%
Default

Clee, outstanding after action. After having spent 3 days with Kyle in Forida last year, I will be making the effort to see what Paul is all about.
Very well done here, and excellent follow up on answering members questions.
Thank you for your efforts...
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-19-2012, 9:46 AM
Clee's Avatar
Clee Clee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 396
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

ALrighty now....

Back to the good stuff. For those of you considering going to see Paul, hopefully this vid pushes you to go.

It took forever to load but I got Scrambler course up. You are permitted up to 5 shots per target if you don't hit it by then you move on. I shot with Lee who as you can tell by the video is one helluva shot. Me on the other hand, well I'll let the video speak for itself...The Scrambler is trying to replicate battle conditions, running from one set of cover to the next engaging tangos at each stop. Had this been a real battle, I think it would have been a good idea to have just been an ammo mule for Lee and let him take down all the bad guys while I just covered him if we got overrun. LOL. Man can that guy shoot. He only missed at the end when he was tiring. He was a good guy, I'm glad we were partnered up together for the weekend.


Heres anther video this time, the magpul boys Mike and Javier shoot the barricades (also good guys, it was a pleasure to meet them) :


Take it easy on criticizing my shooting, I sensitive. J/K. I'm blaming the fact that my T1 went down and had to shot irons and that my eye pro was fogging up and the rotation of the earth was too fast and (insert every excuse here)....Rip on me all you want I certainly deserve it. Enjoy.

I have some great vids of Paul teaching his tactical lessons and why he chooses them but I won't be posting those. You'll just have to see him to get that info.

Last edited by Clee; 02-19-2012 at 9:51 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-19-2012, 10:14 AM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,354
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Nicely done and thanks again for posting. It's an education. The more I see of Paul not only am I more eager to attend his classes but now I'm thinking that it's perhaps best to go to his range with all the facilities, range tools and extended distances and combat scenarios he has there. What do you think?

As an aside, I think for most people, it's definitely easier and more accurate to engage targets with optics (rather than iron sights) as well as magnification for the extended ranges. I too suffer from poor vision.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 02-19-2012, 10:29 AM
Clee's Avatar
Clee Clee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 396
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzar View Post
Nicely done and thanks again for posting. It's an education. The more I see of Paul not only am I more eager to attend his classes but now I'm thinking that it's perhaps best to go to his range with all the facilities, range tools and extended distances and combat scenarios he has there. What do you think?

As an aside, I think for most people, it's definitely easier and more accurate to engage targets with optics (rather than iron sights) as well as magnification for the extended ranges. I too suffer from poor vision.
For rifle class, I think it doesn't travel well. If Paul were to come here and do a class at say Prado, you'll miss all the good stuff. Shooting at distance, the scrambler, etc. I think his pistol course would be much better suited for out of state classes. So you're right, for his rifle course I'd suggest you travel to Texas that way you get the full benefit of everything he is willing to teach you and let you do.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention, thanks for bringing it up, I have poor vision so we can insert that excuse in there too but really my eye pro was fogging up and since they are presciption I couldn't change them out. Can you help me think of any other excuses?
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-19-2012, 11:24 AM
ramzar's Avatar
ramzar ramzar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: SoCal, USA
Posts: 1,354
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
For rifle class, I think it doesn't travel well. If Paul were to come here and do a class at say Prado, you'll miss all the good stuff. Shooting at distance, the scrambler, etc. I think his pistol course would be much better suited for out of state classes. So you're right, for his rifle course I'd suggest you travel to Texas that way you get the full benefit of everything he is willing to teach you and let you do.
Makes sense and I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clee View Post
...my eye pro was fogging up and since they are presciption I couldn't change them out.
Try the Fogtech DX Instant Antifog Cloth (Package of 12). They work and last the whole day. The bottle applicator is not as easy. I got mine at REI.
__________________
Their drills are bloodless battles, and their battles bloody drills.
- Historian Josephus (AD 37-101) on the Roman military
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-26-2012, 1:19 PM
Paul Howe Paul Howe is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default A few quick notes...

I received word of this thread and let it develop. I know many of the instructors mentioned and history and try not to comment unless it is a matter of safety.

Reference the 100 yard zero. I started using three SR-21 rifle bulls. Why? Head size, black and white contrast so it is easy to see and you can score hits. Using the six-o'clock hold, where the black meets the white, you can either zero your bullets to where the black/white meets or in the center which is about 3" high. This zero will take you out to 300 yards.

I had LE targets make up a Long Distance (LD) target that I use for 200/300 and for my 100 yard zeros. I is a CSAT target with black upper box. Again, shoot for a zero where the bullet hits where you cut with the tip of your front sight or the tip of your red dot. Again, this will take you out to 300 yards.

I use ballistic charts as a reference and don't believe them until I walk the ground and see the shot. The barrel length, etc. are variables.

As for zeroing at 25 and 50, I don't use it unless I have to. Most folks don't realize that any errors at 50 will double at 100. With that, I have never had anyone shoot my standards and pass it with a 50 yard zero.

Finally, I do use an inside the waist band holster and get the muzzle close to my body. So what? Tex Scrubner's video where he shoots himself in the leg with a Kimber Pro Carry is done with an outside the pants hip holster.

If you have any issues with what I teach, ask me. I have 1 hour Tactical Safety Powerpoint that I show before every tactical class. It covers a great deal of material.

If you have any questions on what I have written above, ask me now or e-mail on my website www.combatshootingandtactics.com
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-26-2012, 1:29 PM
ZombieTactics's Avatar
ZombieTactics ZombieTactics is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Roseville area, or wherever they pay my confiscatory rates for things only I know how to do (lol)
Posts: 3,694
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Awesome of you to stop by!

I'm still confused by the 3" holdover at 100, but it's probably my malfunction. It confuses me because it's so similar to the results I get with a 36-yard/confirmed-at-300 "Marine" zero.

The bizness about AIWB in this thread lacks context unless you were following some other threads on this board. I use it as an example of how something can be technically violating a safety rule, but it's not necessarily unsafe in context. I'm a proponent of AIWB myself.
__________________
|

I don't pretend to be an "authority." I'm just a guy who trains a lot, shoots a lot and has a perspective.

Check the ZombieTactics Channel on YouTube for all sorts of gun-related goodness CLICK HERE

Last edited by ZombieTactics; 02-26-2012 at 1:39 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-26-2012, 1:56 PM
Paul Howe Paul Howe is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default Shooting bulls...

The 3" high zero started when people shot bulls, like the SR-21 centers I used. Hold at the base of the bull, hit in the middle of the bull, about 3" high. People like to hit the center of the bull so they have to hold their sight in one spot and adjust their impact 3" up. The best way I have found to shoot a bull is to shoot a six-o'clock hold as it is the best focal spot for their eye/sight.

When folks try to put their front sight in the center of the bull, their eye goes back and forth trying to find the perfect sight picture and they get eye strain after too long. This is a center hold on a bull and will also work, but you just don't want to go back and forth too many times.

I hope this helps. No problem on the holster issue. Thanks for the note.

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-27-2012, 12:35 PM
HighLander51 HighLander51 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,144
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

This is the 36/300 yard zero for the AR. The circle represents a 10" diameter plate and the triangle is the top of the Trijicon Accupoint (for my scope mount offset and my ammo out of a 20" barrel). The hold is for zero between point blank and 350 yards. It's on the left side of the butt stock on my ARs.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:32 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.