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  #1  
Old 12-12-2018, 9:49 AM
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Default Delay after Delivery of a firearm

Have any of you ever experienced this?

We had a C&R with COE collector purchase online and ship here for transfer 3 C&R Firearms. We did the DROS and delivery the same day and he took all three home that day.

Now 3 days later we get a delay on ONE of his DROS. I call the DES helpline and they say I have to get this firearm back. I ask how would you like me to acquire it since it was already delivered at the time of DROS. I was told NOT to acquire it and just get the firearm back. I told her that ATF requires me to log in the book this gun and the snarky B says "well we are not ATF that's not my problem"

I call Renee and left her a VM about this issue.

I called the BOF landline and guess who I get on the phone? The SAME snarky B from the DES who is now even more of pissed that I dared call back to get clarification.

I asked her again, and she said the answer hasn't changed. I said, great what if this customer is like forget you Im not bringing it back then what? Now how do I comply with your delay. She said well that's not her problem and a civil issue between me and the customer. I ask 'how is this a civil issue'? Is this not why we pay part of the DROS fee for enforcement, and if there is an issue where either the customer is not eligible, or the firearm was stolen or whatever then law enforcement or the DOJ would be the ones to go handle it.

She got more irritated and told me its not their problem and mine to deal with.

WTF I am so pissed right now. I told her we did what the law states. He is a C&R holder with COE and we did the DROS and delivered as allowed by law and the DES.

Again she could give a care less and basically hung up on me.
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  #2  
Old 12-12-2018, 10:15 AM
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Me...I'd inform her that since I complied with the laws in place at the time of the transaction and if they now want the firearm back in my hands then they can go retrieve it and deliver it to me.
I don't think they have a leg to stand on based on the scenario described.

I'd also would not be surprised if an auditor walked in the door the next to do an audit...
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  #3  
Old 12-12-2018, 10:31 AM
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I have got DELAY's on one out of (x) DROS's before. They have come up stolen. If it was the purchaser, DOJ would delay the whole packet, if they only delayed one, it may be the gun. on Curio and Relic guns however, it may be a mistake on the DOJs part because many C&R guns share serials, or get reported funny (k98, 98k, Kar98, Mod.98) etc so they may be trying to double check with the PD that poped up in AFS.

I think you are in the clear, you did nothing wrong. I may inform the customer there may have been an issue with his firearm.

IF the gun was denied, I would contact the customer and ask them to bring it back. If they won't, then I would tell the PD and the DOJ and they would go do a door knock. Most likely they would, because they dont want to have a stolen gun (that the government is away of and looking for). More than likely, you will get a call from a Police Detective in the next couple days that will verify what gun it is, then tell you they want to pick it up. You can explain the situation and they will probably just go recover it from the buyer.
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  #4  
Old 12-12-2018, 10:55 AM
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Yeah, I've had one instance dave where the customer (a regular) got a delay on a NEW 10/22, that was reported stolen in the early 1990s. Problem was that particular model of 10/22 was a digital camo print color that Ruger didn't offer until 2014, so it obviously was a mistake in the AFS and National Registry after a couple back and forth calls with Renee we sorted it out and delivered his gun.

This customer said that he would just drop it off this weekend when he is in the area, he lives about an hour away, and I told him we will see what DOJ says. In this instance these were interstate transfers so not really a big deal financially for me if its reported stolen, then he would be able to get a refund possibly from the online seller.

Anyhow rant over pretty much, just was so darn mad this am at the DOJ for just not being helpful at all. Oh well, what did we expect.

Problem is I know Renee would have been more helpful, but shes out of the office today and usually returns voicemails towards the end of the day when she is out of the office. I'm sure it would have been easier to clear up with her help. Shes the one who sorted out the whole 10/22 debacle last year.
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  #5  
Old 12-12-2018, 11:12 AM
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Get it in writing. Also, next time you call, inform them you will be recording the call and record the call. That BISH will be a lot nicer I suspect. If she's not, YOUTUBE TIME!
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  #6  
Old 12-12-2018, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
Have any of you ever experienced this?

We had a C&R with COE collector purchase online and ship here for transfer 3 C&R Firearms. We did the DROS and delivery the same day and he took all three home that day.

Now 3 days later we get a delay on ONE of his DROS. I call the DES helpline and they say I have to get this firearm back. I ask how would you like me to acquire it since it was already delivered at the time of DROS. I was told NOT to acquire it and just get the firearm back. I told her that ATF requires me to log in the book this gun and the snarky B says "well we are not ATF that's not my problem"

I call Renee and left her a VM about this issue.

I called the BOF landline and guess who I get on the phone? The SAME snarky B from the DES who is now even more of pissed that I dared call back to get clarification.

I asked her again, and she said the answer hasn't changed. I said, great what if this customer is like forget you Im not bringing it back then what? Now how do I comply with your delay. She said well that's not her problem and a civil issue between me and the customer. I ask 'how is this a civil issue'? Is this not why we pay part of the DROS fee for enforcement, and if there is an issue where either the customer is not eligible, or the firearm was stolen or whatever then law enforcement or the DOJ would be the ones to go handle it.

She got more irritated and told me its not their problem and mine to deal with.

WTF I am so pissed right now. I told her we did what the law states. He is a C&R holder with COE and we did the DROS and delivered as allowed by law and the DES.

Again she could give a care less and basically hung up on me.


I asked a similar question during the DES training when this scenario came up and the instructor said the same thing. I said what if they tell me to **** off, and he was pretty silent, and then moved on.
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  #7  
Old 12-12-2018, 11:52 AM
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As long as the DEALER follows all the rules, then it becomes a DOJ/Police issue. the only time you kind of want to worry about it is when you release a gun after the 30 days undetermined, because YOU made the decision. I have had guns come back after the approval, but that's a rare thing anyways, so for it to happen on a undetermined would have to be even rarer.

Issue is, DOJ says get the gun back, but ATF would call that an acquisition lol
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  #8  
Old 12-12-2018, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyke8319 View Post
I'd also would not be surprised if an auditor walked in the door the next to do an audit...
Sorta how I got "randomly" selected at the airport TSA a couple weeks ago while wearing a tee shirt that read "the purpose of the constitution is to limit the power of the federal government, not the American people"
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  #9  
Old 12-13-2018, 8:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
As long as the DEALER follows all the rules, then it becomes a DOJ/Police issue. the only time you kind of want to worry about it is when you release a gun after the 30 days undetermined, because YOU made the decision. I have had guns come back after the approval, but that's a rare thing anyways, so for it to happen on a undetermined would have to be even rarer.

Issue is, DOJ says get the gun back, but ATF would call that an acquisition lol
What makes you think this? The Penal code says “the dealer may deliver the gun”

When delivering on an approved DROS, The penal code says “the dealer may deliver the gun”

If you don’t deliver a firearm to a non prohibited person, you could be taken to civil court for violating their 2A rights.

Essentially the penal code uses the same language for u determined and approved according to my lawyer.
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  #10  
Old 12-13-2018, 11:28 AM
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I asked my inspector and she said that at a minimum you need to talk to the customer about it. If he is willing to give it back, as far as the CA DOJ is concerned you still have it within the waiting period, yeah, I know, there is no waiting period, but you don't need to "acquire" it. It was said that it could be something to do with the firearm since the other two don't have an issue. I am not sure if the DROS all go to the same person or if three different people could be doing the background check.
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2018, 11:50 AM
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I called the customer yesterday. He was fine with it coming back and said he would try and bring it back this weekend. I’m sure it’s a possible stolen gun. His other two Dros were fine. I didn’t check to see if he had done other Dros with us in the past.

I hear what Kem is saying. The Doj girl said prettty much the same thing to me on the phone. (Twice) but what bugs me is this shouldn’t be our problem. It’s a glitch in the DES that doesn’t allow us to deliver the gun and get approval page at the same time. Hence why 10 days later we still go back and print the approval.

I’ve got lots of CR guys who do their DROS here and never have an issue with it.
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  #12  
Old 12-13-2018, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
I called the customer yesterday. He was fine with it coming back and said he would try and bring it back this weekend. Iím sure itís a possible stolen gun. His other two Dros were fine. I didnít check to see if he had done other Dros with us in the past.

I hear what Kem is saying. The Doj girl said prettty much the same thing to me on the phone. (Twice) but what bugs me is this shouldnít be our problem. Itís a glitch in the DES that doesnít allow us to deliver the gun and get approval page at the same time. Hence why 10 days later we still go back and print the approval.

Iíve got lots of CR guys who do their DROS here and never have an issue with it.
Well, in a sense it isn't your problem since you followed the law. You are NOT required to get the firearm back, but it could go better if you did since it will be more friendly getting the firearm from you than directly from him.

It could be stolen or incorrectly thought to be stolen.
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2018, 1:28 PM
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This is sendhand dealer fun that most guys donít deal with lol. Iíve had 3 of these in the last few years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Old 12-13-2018, 1:59 PM
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I have had a denial in the old system before the deliver button.
I called and told them it was already delivered....Never heard another thing.

In DES on had a DMV reject with a Peace Officer with a 10 day letter.
I called DES and they told me to have the customer come back/clear with DMV/ and reDROS.
I said sorry, its already delivered in DES. They said a supervisor was going to call me back but no one ever did.
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Old 12-13-2018, 2:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
This is sendhand dealer fun that most guys donít deal with lol. Iíve had 3 of these in the last few years.
Any transfer can cause this problem, although if it is already in CA, then it is less likely, but out of state transfers can raise an issue.

I am curious as to what CA is looking at, if anything, in ferms of whether the firearm is reported lost/stolen.
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Old 12-13-2018, 2:03 PM
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This wasn’t one of our guns fortunately. But still we did the interstate transfer. I’m sure the customer doesn’t want something that’s been reported stolen either. The customer didn’t raise much concern when I told him the situation and said he would swing it by when he’s free this weekend.
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Old 12-13-2018, 4:44 PM
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Renee called us back, (as usual) and said basically its probably reported stolen and if we can get it back great, log it in for ATF and then wait to hear from the DES for either approval or Undetermined, if it takes that long then call for new NICS number and then give it back to him.
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