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  #1  
Old 04-21-2018, 8:47 AM
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Default PPT Burnout? And the fun is just beginning....

As I visit local guns stores in SoCal I see staffs dragged down by lots of PPTs. I am guilty of doing my fair share, with an iTrader rating of 280 I have done many PPTs and also a fair amount of new guns too. I also try to only buy guns and other things at stores who process PPTs for me, and avoid buying anything from the stores who seem to want to punish gun owners for following the insane transfer paperwork and bureaucracy that goes with it. As I talk with various clerks and FFL owners there is the constant complaint that California is becoming increasing burdensome in the back end of the gun business, and the feeling the state wants to bog down the local gun stores with paperwork to further disincentive their existences.

Is this a true statement?


Also, if things are bad with transfers now what is it going to be like in 8 months when background checks and additional paperwork are required to buy ammo??

With falling new gun sales, and soon to be falling ammo sales, what does that mean for local gun and ammo stores? Will increased regulatory restrictions eventually choke out more of our already dwindling FFLs?
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  #2  
Old 04-21-2018, 9:03 AM
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Just for funsies try to figure out how much you would have made if you had spent all of that time on the clock.
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Old 04-21-2018, 9:13 AM
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Guns....Its a hobby, not a job....and I want to keep it that way, but figure to buy or sell a gun it takes 5 hours on average total (initial purchase, drive time, pick up time, waiting in line time), so about $100,000.00 in pursuing my hobby deducted from work time....not to mention testing the gun, developing loads, looking for the particular gun on Calguns, etc. But that is over a period of 10 years....much cheaper than a boat which runs about $40,000 a year if its in the water full time.
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Old 04-21-2018, 9:35 AM
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Now that “mail order” Ammo is going away... shops might be happier to get customers in for a PPT.


If a shop is smart, they can offer the upsells-

Cleaning kits/ accessories
Magazines
Ammo
Targets
Training/ classes
NRA membership
Etc


Old school brick and mortar shops live on foot traffic... now you have 2 people to please...

Many guns are commodities. What does an FFL make by selling a new glock or XD? $50-$75?

This requires them to front $500 in inventory.

-
Does a waiter ever not offer you a frosty margarita or tell you about some appitizer on special? The best sales people educate a customer....


— example—
I picked up a surplus SKS years back... the clerk, not salesperson did not discuss anything with me....
I would have been happy to buy:
- cans of powder blaster
- stripper clips
- Ammo

I was happy to spend twice what I spent on just the rifle.... the clerk, I don’t know what they get a splif on but it has trained them not to give a good sale experience.


For those who were not in the shooting sports in 1993/1994, 1995 sucked

Everyone spent 5 years of budget by the 1994 ban
Inventories went way up in 1995
Ammo was cheap in 1995
Ranges were quiet in 1995

No one had money left to spend shooting
No one had anything to buy as the good stuff was no longer available
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Old 04-21-2018, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Now that “mail order” Ammo is going away... shops might be happier to get customers in for a PPT.

You can't sell enough stuff to make up for the time and costs to be happy about doing PPTs

Its required by law and quite simply part of the game. You obviously don't know anything about gun shop business models.
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  #6  
Old 04-21-2018, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
You can't sell enough stuff to make up for the time and costs to be happy about doing PPTs

Its required by law and quite simply part of the game. You obviously don't know anything about gun shop business models.

So how do gun stores make money?
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Old 04-21-2018, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
So how do gun stores make money?
Selling inventory. We treat PPTers with the same respect and courtesy as any other customer. Many use us as a midway meeting point and never come back. Its very rare that either buy merchandise in a significant way.

One person just bought a gun, and the seller needed the money.
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  #8  
Old 04-21-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
So how do gun stores make money?
Law dictates on a PPT you can only charge $10 on top of the$25 DROS. PPT sales rarley bring permanent customers and rarley get add on sales. taperxz is right, PPTs dont help business much.

When I get guns in from Buds or where ever , a lot of the times the customer chose me because I am the closest or most convenience (sometimes just because Im the cheapest). On FFL transfers from out of state or other stores, we can charge any amount we want. $35-75 is typical. So a lot of the time I can capture that customer and keep them coming back and make a couple bucks off the sale. Someone transfers a 10/22 from buds, Ill probably make the same amount with my fee than I would if I sold it from stock.

But PPT sales are usually bargain guys, or calgunners who only want off roster stuff, or half way point between the guys. Yea sure some of the costomers may come back, but usually they are only there because the law says that have to be. Its $35 no matter where they go, you only make $10 off the sale and usually that doens't cover cost of business (time).

I don't dislike PPT's, they just don't HELP business.
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  #9  
Old 04-21-2018, 11:55 AM
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I understand the fee may be increased to $20.00 for the dealer. We know the state is actually making a profit on the sale, which is being used for their anti felon possession units, when it should be used to facilitate lower dros fees per law.

I buy stuff from places I use for PPTs but for rare birds, very few stores carry vintage C&R guns so it's the Internet for those searches or calguns.
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Old 04-21-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
I understand the fee may be increased to $20.00 for the dealer. We know the state is actually making a profit on the sale, which is being used for their anti felon possession units, when it should be used to facilitate lower dros fees per law.

I buy stuff from places I use for PPTs but for rare birds, very few stores carry vintage C&R guns so it's the Internet for those searches or calguns.
Please tell me where you have heard this news. Otherwise someone is pulling your chain.
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Old 04-21-2018, 12:43 PM
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Even if a PPT is usually a loser for a FFL when only direct costs and revenues are considered, does a FFL benefit from indirect expenditures. For instance, if the parties only meet at a shop midway between the two and are unlikely to generate return business, does the transaction benefit an FFL located nearer to those parties? Say the seller invests the proceeds in buying another firearm and the buyer purchases ammunition and accessories from their respective local dealers. Consequently, the dealer doing the PPT in Laguna HIlls for a transaction between a Santa Ana seller and a San Diego may find it a loser, but he may benefit from a Santa Ana PPT between a seller from Los Angeles and buyer from Los Alisos.

Still, $10 is ridiculous.
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  #12  
Old 04-21-2018, 1:00 PM
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For the paperwork, hand holding, risk, space required, time required yes $10.00 is nuts. Was a house $45,000.00 and gas 30 cents a gallon when the $10.00 fee was set?
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Old 04-21-2018, 2:31 PM
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There needs to be a Conservative Legislator that's willing to take on the Dealer PPT fee and if nothing more, raise it to meet inflation and Liberal minimum wage concerns. I'll bet if you hired someone at minimum wage to do nothing but PPT he couldn't pay for him/herself.
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  #14  
Old 04-21-2018, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyke8319 View Post
There needs to be a Conservative Legislator that's willing to take on the Dealer PPT fee and if nothing more, raise it to meet inflation and Liberal minimum wage concerns. I'll bet if you hired someone at minimum wage to do nothing but PPT he couldn't pay for him/herself.
I dont think they should charge more, I think they should get private sales OUT of dealers business, and let it be a CFARS thing. (Fill a freaking form and report the sale). If people are going to break the law, they are going to break it. Holding it for 10 days doesnt do anybody a favor.
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  #15  
Old 04-21-2018, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
I dont think they should charge more, I think they should get private sales OUT of dealers business, and let it be a CFARS thing. (Fill a freaking form and report the sale). If people are going to break the law, they are going to break it. Holding it for 10 days doesnt do anybody a favor.
No way. No friggin way would I sell a gun to a stranger who might be criminal or worse yet a democrat.

Seriously, I see taking it away from FFLs but than who? The dmv?? Our rulers show on a daily basis they can't even issue you a drivers license.

A background check, while hated, is a good idea.
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Old 04-21-2018, 11:46 PM
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Background checks only keep the honest people honest.. I'm not aware of a single person (so far) that has failed a background check and then was subsequently arrested. So as the saying goes, they don't even enforce the laws on the books.
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Old 04-22-2018, 6:01 AM
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Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
No way. No friggin way would I sell a gun to a stranger who might be criminal or worse yet a democrat.



Seriously, I see taking it away from FFLs but than who? The dmv?? Our rulers show on a daily basis they can't even issue you a drivers license.



A background check, while hated, is a good idea.


I see your view, but in most of the country this is the norm. Things like having a CCW or a COE in ca or even a C&R help quell those thoughts. But yea im most the country PPTs don’t have much to do with dealers and the ones that do its just a 4473 and a nics check so it’s easier.


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Old 04-22-2018, 7:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
You can't sell enough stuff to make up for the time and costs to be happy about doing PPTs

Its required by law and quite simply part of the game. You obviously don't know anything about gun shop business models.
This is foolish and shortsighted. It is not always the case that the PPT parties don't make it worthwhile. I once had someone meet me for PPT from about 50 miles away at a shop he normally wouldn't go to.

In addition to gun he PPT'd to me him and his brother spent about $2000 in the shop and I spent about $300 in ammo.

Another time a buyer of mine while waiting for me bought a rifle, place we met at isn't local to him and normally not one he would go to.

Really there is no point about whining about having to do a PPT as it is the law and if you don't like it the FFL can just close up shop. Just make the best out of the situation. I do guarantee I will not generally give any business to FFL's that make a PPT difficult and whine.
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Old 04-22-2018, 7:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
No way. No friggin way would I sell a gun to a stranger who might be criminal or worse yet a democrat.

Seriously, I see taking it away from FFLs but than who? The dmv?? Our rulers show on a daily basis they can't even issue you a drivers license.

A background check, while hated, is a good idea.
As mentioned, you do realize this is the norm and legal in most of the USA? I assume you are never moving out of CA? What would you do, make people transfer any gun you sold privately through a FFL if you moved to a free state? That generally doesn't go over well.

I understand your concern but it shows how people here get a CA mindset and why others in free states hate us especially when we move to their states.
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Old 04-22-2018, 9:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
Background checks only keep the honest people honest.. I'm not aware of a single person (so far) that has failed a background check and then was subsequently arrested. So as the saying goes, they don't even enforce the laws on the books.
I worked at a hunting/fishing store for 5.5 years while in high school in the 70's. Had a 10 day waiting period on handguns, with fingerprints taken on every purchase. The only time we ever heard back on an issue was several months later, which sort of made the whole process useless. Laws are for the law-abiding, at least until they infringe so badly that they create scofflaws.
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Old 04-22-2018, 6:22 PM
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There are a substantial amount of people who fail the background check. Like 1%. I'd rather have them deal with the background check and fail then get through and shoot up a school. We are losing the PR battle even if the last few shooters should not have been in possession of a firearm and leo dropped the ball.

So many fails....but than there was vegas....that guy fooled everyone.
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Old 04-22-2018, 6:52 PM
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There are a substantial amount of people who fail the background check. Like 1%. I'd rather have them deal with the background check and fail then get through and shoot up a school. We are losing the PR battle even if the last few shooters should not have been in possession of a firearm and leo dropped the ball.

So many fails....but than there was vegas....that guy fooled everyone.
Yes as mentioned the Vegas shooter was not prohibited and bought the guns from a FFL. I don't think the Florida gay club shooter was prohibited either? Where did you get the 1% of people fail background check statistic?

The guy that shot all the cops in Texas bought the gun private party. I don't think he was prohibited either but not sure. The original owner was contacted but he did not commit a crime by federal and Texas law. I'd hate having that scrutiny and attention though.
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Old 04-22-2018, 7:36 PM
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Where did you get the 1% of people fail background check statistic?
I made it up!!! WTF, the networks do it every day....actually the total is 1.5 million since 1998

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/...nials.pdf/view

BTW Swan, I check out the guardian Tuesday....I'll give you a review afterward.
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Old 04-22-2018, 9:15 PM
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This is foolish and shortsighted. It is not always the case that the PPT parties don't make it worthwhile. I once had someone meet me for PPT from about 50 miles away at a shop he normally wouldn't go to.

In addition to gun he PPT'd to me him and his brother spent about $2000 in the shop and I spent about $300 in ammo.

Another time a buyer of mine while waiting for me bought a rifle, place we met at isn't local to him and normally not one he would go to.

Really there is no point about whining about having to do a PPT as it is the law and if you don't like it the FFL can just close up shop. Just make the best out of the situation. I do guarantee I will not generally give any business to FFL's that make a PPT difficult and whine.

Good! Give me your address. I’ll send everyone your way.

Why don’t you just tell everyone your business address and company name?

You can be the PPT king and make a fortune.
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Old 04-22-2018, 9:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
I made it up!!! WTF, the networks do it every day....actually the total is 1.5 million since 1998

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/...nials.pdf/view

BTW Swan, I check out the guardian Tuesday....I'll give you a review afterward.
What makes you think that when a "bad guy" fails the background check he's not going to still try and get a firearm if he's intent on shooting up a school?

The Newton guy killed his own mother.

Again, the background check just keeps the honest honest. You know what my friends did in high school? They paid people to do straw purchases and then have them report the gun stolen... (Yes I hung around with the wrong crowd and got into trouble, but nothing too bad obviously)..

I'm not sure why you're convinced that if Universal Background Checks existed that crime with firearms would just go away.
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Old 04-22-2018, 9:22 PM
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Good! Give me your address. I’ll send everyone your way.

Why don’t you just tell everyone your business address and company name?

You can be the PPT king and make a fortune.
Tell me yours so I can never spend a penny there. Are you just the help or you actually own it? Does your boss know you're on here crying about PPT's? If it is so onerous quit or give up the business.
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Old 04-22-2018, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
I made it up!!! WTF, the networks do it every day....actually the total is 1.5 million since 1998

https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/...nials.pdf/view

BTW Swan, I check out the guardian Tuesday....I'll give you a review afterward.
Interesting stats, funny how some straight up illegal aliens tried to slip through or the 95 instances where people that renounced citizenship did it. Why are they even in USA?

Hope you like the gun if not I'm sure you can make your money back. By the way I may have a lead on the KelTec you want but won't be available for a couple of months. It doesn't belong to me.

We can PPT it at taperxz's shop haha.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:38 PM
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Quick. Somebody get a moderator to move this thread to politics and discussion.
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Old 04-22-2018, 10:39 PM
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We can PPT it at taperxz's shop haha.
Oh. Im only PPTing there from now on.
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Old 04-23-2018, 6:35 AM
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Originally Posted by I Swan View Post
Tell me yours so I can never spend a penny there. Are you just the help or you actually own it? Does your boss know you're on here crying about PPT's? If it is so onerous quit or give up the business.
Oh, so you’re in the FFL forum giving FFLs crap about something you don’t know anything about.

Got ya
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  #31  
Old 04-23-2018, 6:36 AM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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Oh. Im only PPTing there from now on.
Fine with me. At least I won’t have to hold your gun for 10 days
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Old 04-23-2018, 6:55 AM
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Default PPT Burnout? And the fun is just beginning....

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Originally Posted by bubbapug1 View Post
No way. No friggin way would I sell a gun to a stranger who might be criminal or worse yet a democrat.



Seriously, I see taking it away from FFLs but than who? The dmv?? Our rulers show on a daily basis they can't even issue you a drivers license.



A background check, while hated, is a good idea.

Hey brother,
Here in Idaho, we do ppt’s in parking lots, and have a couple craigslist like sales sites, zidaho and 208guns.
No dealers, no nothing. I show the seller my CWP so they know I’m a resident and have had a bg check, but it’s not required. When you start thinking of firearms as personal property and not a government privilege it makes more sense. The less government involvement in my business the better. Should people have to go through the same hassle to sell a used car? A car can easily be as or more dangerous to the public than a firearm in the wrong hands. Just some food for thought and conversation.

Now that you mention it though, I may ask any future buyers for their voter registration card. The thought of accidentally selling a gun to a Democrat is kinda scary hahaha.
Have a good one.



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  #33  
Old 04-23-2018, 7:40 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Oh, so you’re in the FFL forum giving FFLs crap about something you don’t know anything about.

Got ya
Non FFL's are allowed to post here. And I have been involved in the industry and around it my whole life including operating a range at one time. I still see you avoid the questions and just pout about PPT's.

What shop do you work at? Does your boss know you're on here whining? So I guess the people I've dealt with that bought more stuff or are continued good customers of the shops we've gone to are just figments of my imagination?

I've noticed some of the shops here that are popular and have a good rep aren't PPT crybabies. Being as it isn't likely to change that they are required I say make the best of them.

Does it always translate in to sales? Of course not. Yesterday I did one and I didn't buy anything additional. But at same shop and I rarely to never go there I have gone there for a PPT and ended up buying two additional guns from their shop I'd of never know were there if not for the PPT.
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  #34  
Old 04-23-2018, 7:46 AM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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Originally Posted by I Swan View Post
Non FFL's are allowed to post here. And I have been involved in the industry and around it my whole life including operating a range at one time. I still see you avoid the questions and just pout about PPT's.

What shop do you work at? Does your boss know you're on here whining? So I guess the people I've dealt with that bought more stuff or are continued good customers of the shops we've gone to are just figments of my imagination?

I've noticed some of the shops here that are popular and have a good rep aren't PPT crybabies. Being as it isn't likely to change that they are required I say make the best of them.

Does it always translate in to sales? Of course not. Yesterday I did one and I didn't buy anything additional. But at same shop and I rarely to never go there I have gone there for a PPT and ended up buying two additional guns from their shop I'd of never know were there if not for the PPT.
Please show me where I or any other FFL has whined about PPTs. I said they are a money loser at $10 and any residual sales from these aren’t enough to recoup the time taken on having to do them.

This isn’t whining Einstein, my own books tell me I’m right and you don’t know WTF you are talking about.

My thoughts on this is strictly business not emotional like yours.
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Old 04-23-2018, 7:55 AM
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Please show me where I or any other FFL has whined about PPTs. I said they are a money loser at $10 and any residual sales from these aren’t enough to recoup the time taken on having to do them.

This isn’t whining Einstein, my own books tell me I’m right and you don’t know WTF you are talking about.

My thoughts on this is strictly business not emotional like yours.
OK genius, you're whining about how every single PPT loses you money when obviously that isn't always the case. How is sales of over $2000 additional not making it worth your while? Still waiting to hear what shop you work at. Would benefit you so you never have to do a PPT of mine again.

Not emotional at all, as mentioned I've worked in the industry. I seem to have hit a nerve, you sure responded quick, are you subscribed to this thread? Take a big breath, relax, it will all be OK!
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Old 04-23-2018, 8:31 AM
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No fighting please.

What I'm trying to ascertain is how badly the PPT thing is hurting FFLs. I think at $10.00 it's choking the life out of gun stores. You need an employee or two to just deal with transfers. What's the solution? Is it a kiosk system to relieve the clerk of some of the paperwork process? Is it an increase in the $10.00 fee?

Background checks ARENT going away in California . It's chicken ship for a guy from Idaho to rub it in our noses because they don't have dealer mandated transfers. Like he himself wrote his states laws. It's an easy and unfair cheap shot and really counter productive to this thread about OUR issues we need to deal with. Does he feel superior as a human being because of his states gun rules. I think any post like that should be met with a lifetime ban on calguns as it really is just taunting.

Bottom line is the PPT process is the scourge of gun owners and gun sellers alike. How do we fix it?

How do we make it more palatable and less onerous on FFLs????
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  #37  
Old 04-23-2018, 8:56 AM
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Fine with me. At least I won’t have to hold your gun for 10 days
True

Its also funny you got dragged into the conversation without chiming in on the thread. I'm dying over here!
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  #38  
Old 04-23-2018, 9:06 AM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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Originally Posted by I Swan View Post
OK genius, you're whining about how every single PPT loses you money when obviously that isn't always the case. How is sales of over $2000 additional not making it worth your while? Still waiting to hear what shop you work at. Would benefit you so you never have to do a PPT of mine again.

Not emotional at all, as mentioned I've worked in the industry. I seem to have hit a nerve, you sure responded quick, are you subscribed to this thread? Take a big breath, relax, it will all be OK!
It is in fact a loser. A $2000 sale is nice and you claim to know the industry but you’re showing your ignorance once again. A $2000 sale may bring in as little as 8% total profit.

I am in fact a vendor on this forum but. I choose to keep my personal screen name separate from my business name.

If you’re going to continue bashing FFLs on their business opinions here I’m sure the mods will be more than happy to block this forum for you.

I treat all customers with respect and do many PPTs. You’re implying I or my employees whine about them. That’s a fallacious statement. I said, they are in fact a money loser. They are! With that said, we are required to do them and it’s a part of our CA dealer agreement. We knew that going into the business.
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  #39  
Old 04-23-2018, 9:10 AM
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Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
True

Its also funny you got dragged into the conversation without chiming in on the thread. I'm dying over here!
Ya no kidding!

Where did I Whine about doing them? I simply stated that they are not a profitable part of the business.
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  #40  
Old 04-23-2018, 9:13 AM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
True

Its also funny you got dragged into the conversation without chiming in on the thread. I'm dying over here!
I was just thinking, at 10 bucks, with with costs and overhead, if we do 20 PPTs I might be able to buy myself a a NUMBER 1 with McNuggets at McDonalds SERIOUSLY
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