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Shotgun discussions Trap, Hunting, Defense and more. A place for enthusiasts to discuss the shotgun. |
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#281
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Would have posted back quicker but computer
hookup down a few days.. Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier, doing in an Enfield bolt gun. Got 630gr slug 2400, compared to the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600. I use 630 gr full bore slugs and the 385gr SPW saboted with locked on base. Opened port and changed bolt stop. Reamed front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield in my 700H 3.25. I got some of the work done on 8ga, in my falling block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured earlier in one piece stock. Will get pictures posted later..Ed |
#283
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Shoots great. Gun is weighted, thick pad.
Experimenting for fellows trying to get speed with heavier sabot slugs than the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in 2 5/8" length brass cases for where length is limited.. Using 770 gr sabot slugs with locked on base, by US-S. These are long sabot slugs due being brass and locked on base. Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space for the RE17 and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps. With 75gr Re17 about 1350 fps. Both of these all case will hold under sabot. For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just seals under it, much more powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps. I went to faster powder, my slowest shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get speed like full bore slugs get. These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case. 47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps. So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug with 65gr 4759 got 1650. You can put in more Steel but cases stick more.They won't blow up, just stick. And cases expanded that way are hard to resize. The first 3" brass I got years ago, same problem with a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have to use shorter cases, you can use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8" when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed |
#284
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Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith
built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks, quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being built by others for sale. And that is absolute sexiest bolt handle. Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from the back. He uses a big hammer, works great. I got a few different sizes of caps and they are perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber supply places. ED |
#285
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Answering questions; bullet jackets from copper tubing
caps. This process makes jacketed slug with covered nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug. 1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets. 5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts. And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are malleable enough to shape into jackets, without a 20 ton stamping press. Interesting info about our posting of this subject on about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread, that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum.. The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views. We greatly appreciate all the interest from all the forums, of all sizes. And all the help and ideas too...Ed |
#287
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Quote:
__________________
There are sniper everywhere and nowhere.....who knows what is out there. PUREMMA MIXED MARTIAL ARTS ACADEMY |
#288
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You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some. It is a really nice looking gun, with great craftsmanship.Ed |
#289
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Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working
on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore. We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see in picture with lever open and breech down. I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do hammer and trigger. 8ga gun in 1st picture. Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves on the back of the breech block on an extension. I also made this change first on 4bore, 2nd pic. It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger. Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower. Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only breech and action a little wider.Ed |
#292
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Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back, with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger. The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use same design, but just be wider on the top of the block. The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand. This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed |
#293
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Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB..
Here is picture, empty falling block receiver from the top...2nd a side view of the breech block with back extensions, with hammer and trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch. The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up inside the two bottom extensions.Ed |
#294
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__________________
Name: Dobalina, Mr.Bob Dobalina Quote:
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#295
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A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz 4bore
pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC. RMC still has them if anyone needs them. That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass or plastic if you can find them.This 4 gauge is a .938 inch bore, smaller than our 1 inch one. Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED |
#296
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Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block.
Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom extensions are narrower than the top. These are what the linkage is inside of and when breech is levered down these fit though the slot in the stock. And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the stock has enough strength. Botton extensions same width for all action sizes.Just top different for the size of action needed for big cartridges. This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore of 1500gr over 2600.Ed |
#297
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Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase 69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a little, in a 12ga wad cup. 2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores. In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders I could get over 2800. Ed |
#298
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That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
and locked on base, shown above is called the Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr. And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5" versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with shotgun powders. I know in our 3.85" case in the long barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts of our slower powders we load with. Bought some tubing caps And here is picture of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be perfectly formed. And with right die they could be formed with round nose with edge step for perfect roll crimping in plastic. And on the right see big caps that would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes that would do 8ga...Ed |
#299
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More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light, 300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity. Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has a one way plastic seal over powder, and a hard rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are the most accurate. Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of 675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs. I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged it over to make blunt nose. These are for the guys trying to make short loaded brass case rounds in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than 2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just good BPGS seals under it and slower powder. On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due to length of sabot get in enough powder to get the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the guys want to get.....ED |
#300
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Here is picture some folks wanted of our
big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison. In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga, my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06. 2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we are checking loads in, to see how much speed can be gotten.You can easily see the length of short full bore lead slug, compared to the saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short slug load for more speed.. Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or that I don't like these saboted types. Great for smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are the best there is, I think, for big game.Just got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED |
#301
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Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
30-06 for size comparison. 3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block, break, etc, actions. 1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH. Can get 20,000 ft lbs. 2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it now as a single shot in an 1887 Win. The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is designed to use in break actions and run about 25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs. It is 4" long, could be called 24ga FH.Ed |
#302
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Some 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel. It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped. 900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus. Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads. Slug hollowbase and hard cast. 740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100 10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase slug ..Wadcup has own seal and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps. Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal barrel. Barrels- BBK 1.32" at breech- CBC 1.18" breech 1.070 muzzles.Ed Last edited by hubel458; 08-21-2011 at 1:11 AM.. |
#303
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Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed, decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and 28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there. 28ga is a .550 Inch bore. But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber, a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case. Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my 585 Short HE. Have a switch barrel 28ga/585. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed |
#304
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I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs, 260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer brass case from RMC. 28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore. 24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore. And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on. Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger brass cases. The Brenneke slug has a long locked on base and seal, connected by long post, that you can see inside the case in picture and pictured on the box Quite a long tail so to speak for good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only 100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED |
#305
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Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads developed. The slugs are about same length as the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels. I'll Have pictures later to post. Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt, straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy, 30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads, it fits nice, looks great. Ed |
#307
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its just magnificent
__________________
Quote:
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#308
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10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty 10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport shown in the picture below, also American Arms, and Richland Arms. And probably a few more. I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases, with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each. Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy. For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead 900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750. Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that, keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi. These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong. Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames, and others have made big bore rifles using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed |
#310
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We have videos of 12ga FH atomizing 6gal pail of water on
youtube. Called Grandpa's Cannon, Grandpa's First Shot. Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke, a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of 16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads. Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs. Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band, penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz. Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke, in a sabot I figured out the following. The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for 12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works. Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok. In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case, gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in. If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs- Last edited by hubel458; 09-28-2011 at 10:36 PM.. |
#311
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Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with. Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok. In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN. The slugs have real good shoulder to roll crimp against when used in plastic cases. These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to work on another die to get the weight about 600gr, that the brass case guys want to use. Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't a bad deal to get them and change them.Ed. |
#312
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__________________
“Be the change that you wish to see in the world.” ― Mahatma Gandhi "A bullet sounds the same in every language..." ― Stewie Griffin (Family Guy Episode: Stewie Griffin: The Untold Story 2005) |
#314
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The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the long barrel NEF. For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block. The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do 35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers, good for 4 shots or more. And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works for various other slugs and shot loads. In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases- 1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400--- and triple ought buckshot load--- 9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed |
#315
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Remember Swift 12, from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases.. 3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases. Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU. The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed |
#316
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Are there any videos on youtube of you shooting these? Would also be cool to see the damage they can cause!
__________________
Shop Amazon and contribute to CGF! click this link before going to amazon.com http://www.shop42a.com www.appleseedinfo.org "Everyone has a plan, till they get punched in the face." -Mike Tyson |
#317
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Two on YT- showing a 6gal sealed water pail atomizing.
1st called-- Grandpa's Cannon 2nd -- Grandpa's First Shot In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called 12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds. And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds. And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels than we have today, so our work is a good extension of what the early big bore guys did. And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed |
#318
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Pretty awesome! Need you to stop posting for a day or two and make some better videos though! Maybe even get the Professional Russian to do a segment.
__________________
Shop Amazon and contribute to CGF! click this link before going to amazon.com http://www.shop42a.com www.appleseedinfo.org "Everyone has a plan, till they get punched in the face." -Mike Tyson |
#319
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Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting. Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926 Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads. Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH .... Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress. 2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain, next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with if ever available.. 3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed |
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