CCW in the movies: Hotel Mumbai

[caliberetta]

I watched the movie Hotel Mumbai recently, based on a true story of a terrorist attack at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel in 2008 (among other locations in Mumbai).

In the movie, terrorists took over a major hotel and held several hundred people hostage. People were hiding in various parts of the hotel to avoid being seen/killed by the ruthless terrorists who arbitrarily shot dozens of people.

The movie is pretty well made and gives you the feeling that you are there. I found myself thinking a lot about what I would do if I were ever in that situation... being a CCW holder and all.

I thought about how helpless these people were against these guys, and also thought about how do you deal with guys who have rifles, automatic and lots of ammo... How do I escape ... or if trapped like that, Where would I hide ... ambush them or just how to defend yourself, loved ones and other people from these guys, who attacked at such an unexpected time.

For sure it made me think about always carrying (sometimes I don't) and also having a spare mag... standard caps for sure... I often carry a 1911 with 8 rounds, sometimes even without any spare mag handy... on a day like this I sure would have been thinking how I probably should have brought the Glock with a 15rd mag and a spare.

Anyone else see the movie? What you think?


.

[SnWnMe]

In the US, rifle involved shootings are perpetrated by one (or two at the most) shooters. You use your CCW to get away.

Most people will take cover when faced with incoming fire no matter how wide or random.

Take advantage of this fact.

[Unforgiven]

Shooters do not expect to face any resistance, hide, then ambush, if that’s your only way to survive. That’s my movie plan.

[CessnaDriver]

Well, you're well out gunned.
So you're going to lose at some point.
Not much you can do about that,
Movie rules....
wait until there are few enough to ambush,
capture weapons and arm more good guys.

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by CessnaDriver

Well, you're well out gunned.
So you're going to lose at some point.
Not much you can do about that,
Movie rules....
wait until there are few enough to ambush,
capture weapons and arm more good guys.

That's what I thought too.

[Notorious]

SERE: Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape

Against a whole group of well armed and fanatical terrorists who have no qualms about random murders, and you only have a pistol with 1 reload, be the wiser man and choose discretion over blind courage.

I would not force any confrontations and would seek to escape intact to find reinforcements and supply whatever intelligence I could. That would help infinitely more than me taking out 1 or 2 terrorists with my pistol.

But if confronted and the situation is not stacked against me like 10 armed terrorists against me, I would not hesitate to shoot immediately. There would be no attempt to capture or negotiate or reason. Shoot the 1 or 2 terrorists by surprise, use speed, get it over with. Run and hide and escape.

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by Notorious

SERE: Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape

Against a whole group of well armed and fanatical terrorists who have no qualms about random murders, and you only have a pistol with 1 reload, be the wiser man and choose discretion over blind courage.

I would not force any confrontations and would seek to escape intact to find reinforcements and supply whatever intelligence I could. That would help infinitely more than me taking out 1 or 2 terrorists with my pistol.

But if confronted and the situation is not stacked against me like 10 armed terrorists against me, I would not hesitate to shoot immediately. There would be no attempt to capture or negotiate or reason. Shoot the 1 or 2 terrorists by surprise, use speed, get it over with. Run and hide and escape.

^^^ Excellent notes

[Paladin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVQpbp54ljA

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by caliberetta

I watched the movie Hotel Mumbai recently, based on a true story of a terrorist attack at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel in 2008 (among other locations in Mumbai).

In the movie, terrorists took over a major hotel and held several hundred people hostage. People were hiding in various parts of the hotel to avoid being seen/killed by the ruthless terrorists who arbitrarily shot dozens of people.

The movie is pretty well made and gives you the feeling that you are there. I found myself thinking a lot about what I would do if I were ever in that situation... being a CCW holder and all.

I thought about how helpless these people were against these guys, and also thought about how do you deal with guys who have rifles, automatic and lots of ammo... How do I escape ... or if trapped like that, Where would I hide ... ambush them or just how to defend yourself, loved ones and other people from these guys, who attacked at such an unexpected time.

For sure it made me think about always carrying (sometimes I don't) and also having a spare mag... standard caps for sure... I often carry a 1911 with 8 rounds, sometimes even without any spare mag handy... on a day like this I sure would have been thinking how I probably should have brought the Glock with a 15rd mag and a spare.

Anyone else see the movie? What you think?

You really need to tighten up your questions and scenarios. Are you talking about being a guest in a hotel overseas or in USA? (brings up issue of guns allowed in foreign country, esp by foreigner (i.e, you).)

If in USA, did you drive there or fly (rules re. guns & ammo on planes)? If within CA, again, did you fly or drive?

You mention being a (CA?) CCWer, well, many states don't extend reciprocity to CA CCWs since CA does not recognize any other state's CCWs.

Are you extending your thinking to an attack against a high rise apartment (landlord), condo (HOA), or office building (landlord and lease holder/employer)? That tweaks it since the first two are residences and the third a workplace, and thus may have different rules/laws re. what you can keep there and what you can carry there.

The BGs used hand grenades too. They put bombs in taxis to explode later in different locations to confuse LE. The BGs had trained for 3 months in general physical prep and skills (think bootcamp), and then once the team of 10 was selected from the best, they went on to 5 more months of advanced training. They used steroids and other drugs, brought snacks and water. They were well prepared and equipped. They worked in small teams of 2, covering each other. Used hand grenades first, then AK fire (like at Westgate). A month before the attacks, they made themselves familiar with the layout of their targets and nearby streets by reviewing maps, charts and videos, so that they knew the Kill Zones better than responding LEOs. They were ordered to "target whites, preferably Americans and British" and told killing a Jew was worth killing 50 non-Jews.

Are you wondering how to prepare for something like that? Or for some young man with a AR who a month earlier decides to shoot up a synagogue and when he does, he doesn't even know how to properly use his rifle or how to clear it when it jams?

FWIW, after Mumbai, Westgate and Paris, I spent a lot of time thinking about these scenarios. There are good documentaries online. Mumbai was a lot more extensive than just the Taj....

Like I said, there's a lot to think through. Fortunately, you're more likely to be killed by lightening, so focus on everyday street threats (see link in my sig line) -- EDC CCW and pepper spray and obey "the 4-S Rule" (avoid being around Stupid people, avoid going to Stupid places, avoid doing Stupid things and avoid being out at Stupid times).

[Paladin]

To help stimulate your thinking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDROrLtc6GM

[Dvrjon]

1. Don’t watch movies.
2. Don’t go to Mumbai.

You can’t plan for everything. If you are in the hotel lobby, and a force of ten enters and shoots you dead, no amount of previous planning can help you.

Better to spend time on working the real-world life issues so when you try to do the “right” thing, you don’t get popped by an accomplice.

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by Paladin

To help stimulate your thinking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDROrLtc6GM

I watched the whole thing - it's a great documentary to watch, especially after seeing the move -- thanks for posting that.

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

1. Don’t watch movies.
2. Don’t go to Mumbai.

You can’t plan for everything. If you are in the hotel lobby, and a force of ten enters and shoots you dead, no amount of previous planning can help you.

Better to spend time on working the real-world life issues so when you try to do the “right” thing, you don’t get popped by an accomplice.

Don't watch movies, don't go to mumbai. Don't fight 10 assailants. Spend more time thinking about real world scenarios, and watch more YouTube shooting clips.

... gee, thanks for the infinite wisdom, Dad. Not sure what we would do without you, but now I know. (no movies. no mumbai. think more. watch youtube -- got it).
.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by caliberetta

Don't watch movies, don't go to mumbai. Don't fight 10 assailants. Spend more time thinking about real world scenarios, and watch more YouTube.
... gee, thanks for the infinite wisdom, Dad. Not sure what we would do without you.

Thanks, son. At least you acknowledge who’s your Daddy.

Lack of perspective on what you can and cannot overcome will make you a dour soul.

You do realize that the clips posted by Paladin (which you praised) are also YouTube, right? So you’d rather watch YouTube on something that happened in a third world nation years ago than a relatively recent real-life feed of a CCW incident in the US?

Worrying about one-off, orchestrated assaults by paramilitary groups seems far less beneficial than paying attention to a real-world two-shooter team wandering into Walmart on a sunny day on Main Street, USA.

As Paladin suggested, take a look at his sig block and review the real interactions listed there. It’s a better use of your time and planning efforts.

Best.

[Paladin]

For those unfamiliar with it, the 4-S Rule says avoid being around Stupid people, avoid going to Stupid places, avoid doing Stupid things and avoid being out at Stupid times. If you are young and naive, just ask your parents to give you examples of each. If, for whatever reason, you can't EDC a CCW, EDC at least pepper spray (which you should EDC even if you EDC a CCW since not all incidents call for deadly force). (I added this 4-S Rule definition to my previous post.)

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

(snip)

Worrying about one-off, orchestrated assaults by paramilitary groups seems far less beneficial than paying attention to a real-world two-shooter team wandering into Walmart on a sunny day on Main Street, USA.

(snip)

Dear Dad Now I understand the value of your advise, but a 2-shooter team wandering into walmart (yes I know about that couple in Nevada) is hardly less of a "one-off" scenario than what happened in Mumbai... all the shooting videos on YouTube are extremely rare to begin with.

The movie seemed to be a very accurate representation of a true to life event that any concealed carrier can learn from. Check it out.

The Documentary Paladin posted is very good too.
.

[Paladin]

(1) Did the movie mention that some victims were tortured while they were alive? I've read that some survivors who hid heard blood curdling screams from people the terrorists found (like in concert hall during the Paris attack), a far different sound than that from people who were just shot.

(2) Re. the topic of this thread: unless you work or live in a high profile location that terrorists might target, you should just focus on everyday threats (as has been said). However, when you go on vacation you are much more likely to visit potential terrorist targets, and thus (if you fear this sort of thing), you should carry MORE than just your EDC rig. But, ironically, that's when you're most likely not to carry due to reciprocity issues (or vacationing outside of the US), or carry less due to lighter clothing for summer vacations.

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by Paladin

(1) Did the movie mention that some victims were tortured while they were alive? I've read that some survivors who hid heard blood curdling screams from people the terrorists found, a far different sound than that from people who were just shot.

(2) Re. the topic of this thread: unless you work or live in a high profile location that terrorists might target, you should just focus on everyday threats (as has been said). However, when you go on vacation you are much more likely to visit potential terrorist targets, and thus (if you fear this sort of thing), you should carry MORE than just your EDC rig. But, ironically, that's when you're most likely not to carry due to reciprocity issues (or vacationing outside of the US), or carry less due to lighter clothing for summer vacations.

Hi Paladin, see response below:

1) I don't recall seeing any prolonged torture, but the movie didn't seem to hold back on any brutality at all. It was pretty real, as corroborated by the facts presented on the Documentary.

2) What happened at that hotel is not much different from terrorism that has occurred right here in the US.

There were 4 terrorists that infiltrated the hotel. They broke up in teams of 2 each.... This is very familiar in the US.

We can start with North Hollywood in 1997. Columbine 1999. Las Vegas 2014. San Bernardino 2015. All teams of 2. Many more.

The only thing that made Mumbai different from so many acts of terrorism right here in the US is the pathetic lack of Police Response.

As seen in the documentary, the only police response at the hotel for several hours was a small team that was armed with a revolver and 5-shot bolt action rifles... mind boggling ... considering the population in Mumbai at that time was in the multi-millions. They had nothing remotely close to SWAT.
.

[Notorious]

From what I've seen and read, most of the cops weren't even armed or had no ammunition. The others had WW2 Lee-Enfield rifles. They weren't trained nor equipped for anything remotely close to handling this situation.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Notorious

From what I've seen and read, most of the cops weren't even armed or had no ammunition. The others had WW2 Lee-Enfield rifles. They weren't trained nor equipped for anything remotely close to handling this situation.

There were only 2 BGs (without helmets or body armor) at the train station. Distances involved were under 100 yards. Two teams (1 team to target 1 BG) of a spotter and sniper could easily and quickly taken care of them. Even two teams of 2 or 3 trained riflemen. (See at ~12 min into the documentary.) But they didn't....

Bad training.

[Old_Bald_Guy]

Why is North Hollywood used as an example here? Bank robbery, not terrorism.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy

Why is North Hollywood used as an example here? Bank robbery, not terrorism.

Terrorism is the use of violence against civilians. Robbing a bank, shooting up a school, killing people in a church. They are all terrorists.

[thetruecheese]

Originally Posted by caliberetta

Terrorism is the use of violence against civilians. Robbing a bank, shooting up a school, killing people in a church. They are all terrorists.

post 9/11 america is really amusing.

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by thetruecheese

post 9/11 america is really amusing.

It's the changing landscape of self defense in America.

These things make you rethink whether our skills and what we are carrying is hardly even enough to have a chance at surviving. I used to think a reliable semi-auto and 10rds is good enough. Not anymore.

We are taught most CCW encounters are over within a "few rounds" fired within "a few yards."

I distinctly recall my CCW instructor several years ago saying "... a shot within 3 yards is self defense ... 20 yards would be murder."

While that could be true some time ago, it is no longer true in today's changing landscape of self defense. We may be called upon (forced) to deal with more than one assailant and even take a longer range shot than we have the skills for (in Orange County, qualification for CCW involves a 3, 5 and 7 yards shots).

In light of the changing landscape of self defense, we would be well served to adapt by: recognizing the potential for terrorism, being prepared to escape/hide/take cover, ambush, carry greater capacity ammo and the skills that extend farther beyond simply being able to take a shot within just 7 yards.

Suddenly the Standard Cap decision seems to make sense more than ever, and even trying out that RMR/Red Dot on the pistol that allows you to take a more accurate shot from a distance suddenly seems to makes sense too.

[Notorious]

Forget the sniper and spotter. A decent marksman with the SMLE can take them out at that distance.

[Bigdog68]

Watch Strikeback. They did a two episoder on being stuck in a hotel Mumbai event. Start with one bad guy and go from there.

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by Bigdog68

Watch Strikeback. They did a two episoder on being stuck in a hotel Mumbai event. Start with one bad guy and go from there.

Found it. Season 1, Episode's 1 & 2. Not bad for $2 each, I think free on Amazon Prime. I think I'll check it out this weekend.... thanks

[Old_Bald_Guy]

Originally Posted by caliberetta

Terrorism is the use of violence against civilians. Robbing a bank, shooting up a school, killing people in a church. They are all terrorists.

Dude, you need to look up that word.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[caliberetta]

Originally Posted by Old_Bald_Guy

Dude, you need to look up that word.

Are we going to talk about Self Defense or start googling word meanings like a bunch of idiots?

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by caliberetta

Terrorism is the use of violence against civilians. Robbing a bank, shooting up a school, killing people in a church. They are all terrorists.

Son, I would suggest that your loose definition gives too much credit and purpose to general, run-of-the-mill *****holes.

Terrorism requires a political goal. The Government even defined “domestic terrorism” for us:

Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act "dangerous to human life" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.

-Bonnie and Clyde weren’t terrorists. They were criminals.
-Willie Sutton robbed banks because, in his words, “That’s where they keep the money.”
-The North Hollywood shooters weren’t terrorists, they were bank robbers.
-The kids at Columbine didn’t have a political agenda, they were just *****Holes abandoned by their *****Hole parents.
-Shooting folks in churches isn’t a political act. It’s religion or race-based.
-The San Bernardino shootings: “According to the FBI's investigation, the perpetrators were ‘homegrown violent extremists’ inspired by foreign terrorist groups. They were not directed by such groups and were not part of any terrorist cell or network.” They were *****holes. (One was a pi$$Ed off county employee).

-The crews in Mumbai had a political agenda, making it a terrorist act.
-Bombing the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City was a terrorist act.
-Islamists driving airplanes into buildings in NY was a terrorist act.
-Islamists trying to drive airplanes into the Pentagon was a terrorist act.
-Islamists dropping a plane in Pennsylvania was a terrorist act.
-The 2014 killing of two police officers and draping the bodies with Gadsden flags, by right-wing nutcakes (my term) who later killed themselves in the back of Walmart (hence the term), was a terrorist act.

CCW plans wouldn’t have helped against these terrorists, (unless we allow concealed carry on airplanes )

CCW plans would have helped against the bank robbers and *****holes.

The world contains far less “terrorists” than *****holes.

Train accordingly.

Best.

[caliberetta]

You guys are a bunch of gems.

Nobody cares about the objective or reason if one is faced with an aggressor with a gun pointed at you.

When you leave out all the "isms" you are left with only one thing - Terror.

Feel free to complicate it.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Notorious

Forget the sniper and spotter.

The "spotter" (observer) in this case would be to tell the sniper" (the shooter) when he has a clear shot that would not take out innocents in the packed train station, who might be running in front of or behind the BG they're assigned to take out.

Originally Posted by Notorious

A decent marksman with the SMLE can take them out at that distance.

And that's why I wrote ...

Originally Posted by Paladin

There were only 2 BGs (without helmets or body armor) at the train station. Distances involved were under 100 yards. Two teams (1 team to target 1 BG) of a spotter and sniper could easily and quickly taken care of them. Even two teams of 2 or 3 trained riflemen. (See at ~12 min into the documentary.) But they didn't....

Bad training.

The real problem, beside lack of training (primarily) and equipment (secondary), was fear due to "the fog of war." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_of_war

Of the LEOs at the train station, I wonder how many of them had any military training? How many had any combat experience, either as LEOs in gun fights, or in the military?

[Paladin]

Well, I finally got around to streaming Hotel Mumbai on Amazon ($4 and 2 hours). Excellent movie!

It also was a good reminder of the need to occasionally do longer range position shooting with a handgun (e.g., PPC or metallic silhouette).

[Gooseman]

This is dumb... Good luck getting your CCW recognized in any other country (let alone CA).

You won't even make it on the plane with your guns and ammo (at least not overseas). Seems like a pointless exercise to me.

[Old Marine]

Trying to understand this thread....
Several things that confuse me
When the defication strikes the rotating oscillator, do you stop the perpetrator and ask if they are a ***hole or a terrorist so you know when to engage or simply move on because you have not trained for this scenario?

Additionally, why would you not incorporate into your training linger shots? Is because the probability of needing a 75 HD shot is small? Let's be honest, the probability of being involved in self defense or home defense is relatively small.



I do not train based on probability, but rather the possibility.


I carry everyday, everywhere I can always with a spare mag, even at home.

In the world of Police and Military training, they do not train for what you most likely encounter, they train for the worst case scenario, so why would you train less?

Not all folks here have a place to train for a home invasion, self defense , terrorist attack, bank robbery or just some kid who parents loved him too little.


Train
Train
And then
Ask yourself where the gaps are, revise, adapt and train some more.

But bear in mind the 4 rules of Stupid, quoted above a couple of times.

[Notorious]

Originally Posted by Gooseman

This is dumb... Good luck getting your CCW recognized in any other country (let alone CA).

You won't even make it on the plane with your guns and ammo (at least not overseas). Seems like a pointless exercise to me.

I don't think he's saying he'll carry to India to defend against another Mumbai... he's taking lessons there to apply to his situation here.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Bigdog68

Watch Strikeback. They did a two episoder on being stuck in a hotel Mumbai event. Start with one bad guy and go from there.

Watched it over last two days. Okay for mindless guy's entertainment. I appreciated the gratuitous naked T&A shots. I guess it's British TV. But no real lessons, IMO, to be gleaned from watching it vs. watching the documentaries about the Mumbai attacks (as well as documentaries about the Westgate and Paris attacks).

JMO

[Bigdog68]

Originally Posted by CessnaDriver

Well, you're well out gunned.
So you're going to lose at some point.
Not much you can do about that,
Movie rules....
wait until there are few enough to ambush,
capture weapons and arm more good guys.

First, watch the second season of Strike Back
That's all your prep work.

Reality hide or run and get away.
Think about being in that position, in a foreign country with no ccw. Then think about what you do. That's the movie.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by caliberetta

Are we going to talk about Self Defense or start googling word meanings like a bunch of idiots?

^^^ Right on!

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by Paladin

But no real lessons, IMO, to be gleaned from watching it vs. watching the documentaries about the Mumbai attacks (as well as documentaries about the Westgate and Paris attacks).

JMO

I disagree. The lesson is:

1) Don’t travel to third world countries. Period. If forced to by your employer, then find a new job.

2). Don’t travel to a gun “unfriendly gun” state (here in the U.S. anyway). There are many other nice places to see in states that don’t prevent us “subjects” from protecting ourselves with firearms.

3). Like you always say, go EDC 24/7, (where legal). If one is legal to do so and doesn’t bother to do so and for whatever reason, shame on that person. We are all our own “911 first responder.” The Police are ALWAYS just “2nd responders.”

Paladin...

I smoked a cigar this morning with a nice cup of Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee on the patio and read every single LTC shooting incident that you published. It was fabulous reading!!! A+ work on your part my friend! It was better than reading a “good book!” I’m forwarding that page to some family members that have been merely wavering on the fence for YEARS of even just purchasing “a” gun for at least, home protection. I’ve told them since I’ve been blue in the face to buy a gun, train and have it for protection. Myself and my brother in law (another pro-2A advocate and gun enthusiast) have even taken some of our family members out for some fun-in-the-sun desert shooting trips, with the hopes of educating them on the merits of gun ownership. Still, no avail. Your article is priceless and in one nicely wrapped package of a read.

Thank you for that.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

^^^ Right on!

The point of the discussion (almost a year ago) was that “terrorism” has a goal broader than the attack...terrorist acts are designed to elicit sufficient fear in the general (un-attacked) populace as to cause that populace to fear everyday activities and change their lifestyle...essentially, to destroy the concept of a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Look no farther than the rise of the TSA and the security of airline travel. The 911 terrorists continue to control our behavior almost 2 decades after their acts. The Walmart and Columbine ***Holes don’t.

One is far more likely to meet some dis-enfranchised ***Hole with violent intent than to meet a true terrorist attempting to disrupt a societal norm forever.

That’s the difference in the definitions.

(Interestingly, we are now coping with a viral pandemic which appears to have originated in China, and is doing exactly what a terrorist activity would do. )

Best.