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  #1  
Old 07-01-2020, 3:17 PM
krb krb is offline
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Default Handgun Optics

Hi everyone.

As on the previous threads - I have a Sig P365 and am looking for an optic. I finally decided on the Trijicon adjustable RMR. Unfortunately the Sig dimensions do not allow this to be mounted. There are two places who have an adapter plate that will accept it. They would make the cut, mount the adapter plate, and then the optic. Unfortunately the height would be such that I would not be able to access the iron sights. As at the end of the day there is always the possibility of electronic failure, I think I would always need to have access to the irons in case of electronic failure. Because the Trijicon mount would obstruct the irons, I think sadly I cannot mount it.

That leaves Holosun 507k and Romeo. So far I've found (not personally used - from internet reviews) Sig branded accessories to be adequate or almost adequate and at the same time overpriced but not excellent.

1) What are your thoughts at using the Trijicon and losing the irons?
2) Anyone have experience with Holosun and Romeo? I think Holosun 507k is brand new so I assume no one has experience with it. I would assume it works as the other Holosun 507's so then I would ask what experience people have with Holosun in general and Sig Romeo in particular.
3) What would you do if this were you?

Thank you!
Keith
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  #2  
Old 07-01-2020, 3:42 PM
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No experience with 507K or Romeo, but is it possible to get taller sights or suppressor height sights for the P365?

Another choice is the Shield RMS/c. It's lower profile and has rear notches to to co-witness. Although pricey. I ordered mine through their website for the glass lens. Cost was >$500. I like my RMR more.
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Old 07-01-2020, 3:45 PM
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Such a small gun and slide, isn’t the Romeo0 sized just for that? I think the Romeo0 has a built in rear sight.

Or the Shield RMSC?

But, yeah, need to have the slide cut. What about selling it and getting the 365XL optic-ready?

My Holosun and Deltapoint Pro work great. Quality optics.


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Last edited by Erion929; 07-01-2020 at 3:47 PM..
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Old 07-01-2020, 3:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DDRH View Post
No experience with 507K or Romeo, but is it possible to get taller sights or suppressor height sights for the P365?

Another choice is the Shield RMS/c. It's lower profile and has rear notches to to co-witness. Although pricey. I ordered mine through their website for the glass lens. Cost was >$500. I like my RMR more.
Hi and thanks. My understanding is that suppressor sights do not currently exist for the 365. It looks like Shield and Romeo will fit but from the reviews I've read, particularly Sage Dynamics (?) on youtube, I'm hesitant to purchase. I had my heart set on RMR but it looks like Trijicon requires an adapter plate that is high enough that the irons can't be used. So now I'm looking at Holosun 507k.
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Old 07-01-2020, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Erion929 View Post
Such a small gun and slide, isn’t the Romeo0 sized just for that? I think the Romeo0 has a built in rear sight.

Or the Shield RMSC?

But, yeah, need to have the slide cut. What about selling it and getting the 365XL optic-ready?

My Holosun and Deltapoint Pro work great. Quality optics.


.
Hi and thanks! The Romeo I read pretty mediocre stuff about. Sage dynamics the glass shattered on his drop test first time. I'm a little guy and use it to carry and love the 365. XL is an inch longer and as they're off-roster it's a big hassle to get off-roster...

First world problems!

I LOVE the 365. Shoots GREAT. Not having optics might not be the worst problem.
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Old 07-01-2020, 4:05 PM
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Defensive pistol? Or just plinking?

In referencing the previous thread - if you have an established NPA, you can get rid of the irons even in defensive pistols since you would be sighting against the outline of the RDS' frame.

That said, the RMRs though durable, have a small window. In my experience, I prefer the Leupold DeltaPoint and SRO - nice wide window that it can accommodate any contortions/angle of my shooting hand...


_
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Old 07-01-2020, 4:23 PM
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Suppressor sights from Sig

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sigli...-p-series.html


Not sure if they sell Front/Rear separately. For my Glock19s I had to switch out front sight to get PoA/PoI (actually haven't had a chance to try out the new combo of sights yet)

Also here:
https://gallowayprecision.com/suppre...-sauer-pistols

Ameriglo:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022036830

Last edited by DDRH; 07-01-2020 at 4:29 PM..
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  #8  
Old 07-01-2020, 8:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Defensive pistol? Or just plinking?

In referencing the previous thread - if you have an established NPA, you can get rid of the irons even in defensive pistols since you would be sighting against the outline of the RDS' frame.

That said, the RMRs though durable, have a small window. In my experience, I prefer the Leupold DeltaPoint and SRO - nice wide window that it can accommodate any contortions/angle of my shooting hand...


_
Carry gun. Sadly hardly anything fits on the P365. I want the Trijicon so much! But if I put it on I lose the irons. Since I know irons will almost always work and I'm always worried any electronic equipment will fail, I'm not comfortable losing the irons. Which leaves Holosun, Romeo, or Shield. I've read some concerning things about the last two, which leaves Holosun. I'm wondering if I should just leave well alone but I just got it in my head to get an optic.
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  #9  
Old 07-01-2020, 8:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krb View Post

1) What are your thoughts at using the Trijicon and losing the irons?
2) Anyone have experience with Holosun and Romeo? I think Holosun 507k is brand new so I assume no one has experience with it. I would assume it works as the other Holosun 507's so then I would ask what experience people have with Holosun in general and Sig Romeo in particular.
3) What would you do if this were you?

Thank you!
Keith
#1 - No to losing the irons. Not on a defensive pistol at least. Electronic things fail. You must have iron sights IMO.

Also, if you're new to red dots on pistols, understand that picking up the dot on the draw is NOT intuitive to most shooters. It's NOT like on a rifle where you have a repeatable cheek weld so your red dot is always and easily in view. There is a learning curve with red dots on pistols and it takes most shooters some time and training until they're able to pickup the dot on the draw. And one of the ways they do this in the beginning is to use the iron sights initially to help "guide your eyes" to the dot.

As for #2 and #3 I'm afraid I'm not of much help as I don't have experience with either optic. I have, however, read a fair amount on the Romeo and that would probably be my first choice and particularly on a Sig gun.
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  #10  
Old 07-01-2020, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by L84CABO View Post
#1 - No to losing the irons. Not on a defensive pistol at least. Electronic things fail. You must have iron sights IMO.

Also, if you're new to red dots on pistols, understand that picking up the dot on the draw is NOT intuitive to most shooters. It's NOT like on a rifle where you have a repeatable cheek weld so your red dot is always and easily in view. There is a learning curve with red dots on pistols and it takes most shooters some time and training until they're able to pickup the dot on the draw. And one of the ways they do this in the beginning is to use the iron sights initially to help "guide your eyes" to the dot.

As for #2 and #3 I'm afraid I'm not of much help as I don't have experience with either optic. I have, however, read a fair amount on the Romeo and that would probably be my first choice and particularly on a Sig gun.
Hi and thanks.
My natural point of aim (meaning when I concentrate on a draw) the front sight lines up pretty close to the rear so I bet the red dot will be viewable.
As regards the Romeo I read some subpar stuff about it as well as for their weapons light (Foxtrot?) so I'm wondering if the QC in their accessories might not be that great. Sage Dynamics reviewed a bunch of stuff. The Romeo glass totally shattered when he dropped it so I think I'd probably just stay with irons in that case.
I really want the Trijicon RMR. The only way to mount it is to add an adapter plate which looks like it would be just high enough to knock out the ability to see the irons. So then I could add suppressor irons. At some point I'm throwing too much money into a gun that's not that expensive.
So then I'm thinking - either Holosun which will allow me to use the irons or Trijicon RMR plus adapter plate on the cutout, plus switch out the sights to suppressor sights to be able to get to use them.
Another thing I'm thinking is I'm not entirely comfortable with the sights on the P365 SAS so I'm thinking about just switching them out for the RMR, in which case I'd be completely relying on the electronics.
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Old 07-01-2020, 8:58 PM
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I have the romeozero and like it. My concern is durability. It seems like it wouldn’t take much to damage the lens. SIG is supposed to release a steel shroud for it, but no one seems to know when. Until then, I doubt I’ll carry it.
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Old 07-01-2020, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigwavebro View Post
I have the romeozero and like it. My concern is durability. It seems like it wouldn’t take much to damage the lens. SIG is supposed to release a steel shroud for it, but no one seems to know when. Until then, I doubt I’ll carry it.
Sage Dynamics on youtube seems to be pretty good at stuff. He does a drop test where he drops his weapon from shoulder height onto concrete. Romeo shattered. Holosun did great. So I know I shouldn't choose based on just that, but it would be for carry so I would want something tough. Trijicon is I think pretty solidly battle proven (military and police) but darn Sig they don't fit. To fit I need an adapter plate which will knock out my irons so then I need to switch to suppressor irons.

At some point I realize I'm just being crazy and should just stick with irons. The gun is great by itself. I think I just got this idea in my head and can't get it out.
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  #13  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:20 PM
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That Trijicon RMR glass sucks though.
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Old 07-01-2020, 10:38 PM
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RMR glass clarity is subjective when your just chasing the dot at x1 power. Trijicon coats the glass to meet the harshness requirements and it's rugged. I wouldn't compare it to their rifle scopes which are SUPER clear.
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Old 07-02-2020, 6:23 AM
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Originally Posted by HKAllTheThings View Post
That Trijicon RMR glass sucks though.
My understanding is it's used by police and military in their weapons. I've not heard bad reports about it.
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Old 07-02-2020, 6:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krb View Post
Hi and thanks.
My natural point of aim (meaning when I concentrate on a draw) the front sight lines up pretty close to the rear so I bet the red dot will be viewable.
As regards the Romeo I read some subpar stuff about it as well as for their weapons light (Foxtrot?) so I'm wondering if the QC in their accessories might not be that great. Sage Dynamics reviewed a bunch of stuff. The Romeo glass totally shattered when he dropped it so I think I'd probably just stay with irons in that case.
I really want the Trijicon RMR. The only way to mount it is to add an adapter plate which looks like it would be just high enough to knock out the ability to see the irons. So then I could add suppressor irons. At some point I'm throwing too much money into a gun that's not that expensive.
So then I'm thinking - either Holosun which will allow me to use the irons or Trijicon RMR plus adapter plate on the cutout, plus switch out the sights to suppressor sights to be able to get to use them.
Another thing I'm thinking is I'm not entirely comfortable with the sights on the P365 SAS so I'm thinking about just switching them out for the RMR, in which case I'd be completely relying on the electronics.

Could get a dual illuminated RMR and not have to worry about any electronics if you wanted to rely on just the red dot for your sights.


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Old 07-02-2020, 6:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Joek75 View Post
Could get a dual illuminated RMR and not have to worry about any electronics if you wanted to rely on just the red dot for your sights.


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True - although if there are wires still have to worry about failure! I think anything electronic whether battery powered, solar powered, or whatever has a too-high risk of failure for something critical. The dual illuminated seems to have a problem where if you are in a dark area (and insufficient light to light the reticle) shooting into a bright area it washes out. My concern is less the battery failing (they seem to last for years) as much as the inherent risk of anything electronic.

With that said, to mount the trijicon will require changing to suppressor sights ($>100), optic cut, and extra mounting plate modifier. With the cost of the optic, this will cost more than the gun! So I'm wondering if I'm just being silly.
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Old 07-02-2020, 8:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krb View Post
Sage Dynamics on youtube seems to be pretty good at stuff.
He's good at being an idiot.

Quote:
He does a drop test where he drops his weapon from shoulder height onto concrete.
And this is why.
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Old 07-02-2020, 8:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsigone View Post
RMR glass clarity is subjective when your just chasing the dot at x1 power. Trijicon coats the glass to meet the harshness requirements and it's rugged. I wouldn't compare it to their rifle scopes which are SUPER clear.
Look at it side by side with the Holosuns or the Deltapoint Pro. It's distorted as hell.
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Old 07-02-2020, 9:14 AM
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I just bought a P365xl upper assembly and a Romeo Zero.

https://www.smallgunparts.com/Sig-P365XL-Slide-Black

The Romeo Zero works for my purposes, but I have a 507K on order. Of course, I'm broke now. LOL
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Old 07-02-2020, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krb View Post
Sage Dynamics on youtube seems to be pretty good at stuff. He does a drop test where he drops his weapon from shoulder height onto concrete. Romeo shattered. Holosun did great. So I know I shouldn't choose based on just that, but it would be for carry so I would want something tough. Trijicon is I think pretty solidly battle proven (military and police) but darn Sig they don't fit. To fit I need an adapter plate which will knock out my irons so then I need to switch to suppressor irons.

At some point I realize I'm just being crazy and should just stick with irons. The gun is great by itself. I think I just got this idea in my head and can't get it out.

I run optics on my G19.5 MOS...love shooting with it. I now have 4 pistols with optics...I'm sold, even for just range shooting.

If you drop your Sig from shoulder height and break the optic, you deserve to have to pay for a new one


.
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Old 07-02-2020, 9:57 AM
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Originally Posted by krb View Post
True - although if there are wires still have to worry about failure! I think anything electronic whether battery powered, solar powered, or whatever has a too-high risk of failure for something critical. The dual illuminated seems to have a problem where if you are in a dark area (and insufficient light to light the reticle) shooting into a bright area it washes out. My concern is less the battery failing (they seem to last for years) as much as the inherent risk of anything electronic.

With that said, to mount the trijicon will require changing to suppressor sights ($>100), optic cut, and extra mounting plate modifier. With the cost of the optic, this will cost more than the gun! So I'm wondering if I'm just being silly.

I don’t believe the dual illuminated rmrs have any wires within them. I think the only thing you have to worry about is the washout, the tritium going bad and breaking the fiber optics.


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  #23  
Old 07-02-2020, 9:59 AM
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How about Vortex, or did I miss that reply? Maintaining iron sights if you can, only makes,sense,
but I feel the co-witnessing thing is difficult to achieve and way overrated. I mean we're now training to focus on a red dot
! I'm just a range guy shooting steel targets, so if my Vortex Viper takes a dump it's no big deal. Don't know anybody who goes to range with only one gun.
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Old 07-02-2020, 10:13 AM
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KISS. If you can see the front sight without having to wear any special glasses that make you car sick while driving - stick to the iron sights.

Trust me, the only reason to switch to a RDS is if you can't see the front sight clearly when aiming. A RDS is not inherently faster to acquire. In fact, as Rodralig eluded to, the small FOV afforded by most RDSs slows down target acquisition and, in my experience, slows down follow up shots.

For the record, I cannot clearly see the front sight of my P365 while wearing my normal glasses. I have a pair of glasses that were specifically made to permit me to see the front sight, however, they tend to make me nauseous when driving, so I only wear them when shooting. I shoot my RDS equipped guns significantly slower than irons when wearing my shooting glasses. But, I still carry my P365 in most situations because if I do need to use it, the distances will be probably be short and if I simply rip my non-shooting glasses off, I will be able to see the front sight crystal clear. If I could still see the front sights of my pistols, I wouldn't have any RDSs.
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Old 07-02-2020, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sigstroker View Post
He's good at being an idiot.



And this is why.
I don't know. He seems to be a really good shooter. I like his videos. What don't you like? I like the idea of dropping the weapon on concrete to see if it fails or not. I was just running - sprinting - in a course and the gun came out of the holster and fell. Very embarrassing. The holster is great in general but not designed for sprinting it appears (my regular holster is being modified - I don't normally use this one). It holds the gun fine for walking and jogging but apparently not for bouncing up and down in a sprint. I would think knowing the gun functions well after a drop would be useful information.

What don't you like about him? He seems to me to know his stuff. I'm just a regular guy though. No LE/Mil training.
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Old 07-02-2020, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erion929 View Post
I run optics on my G19.5 MOS...love shooting with it. I now have 4 pistols with optics...I'm sold, even for just range shooting.

If you drop your Sig from shoulder height and break the optic, you deserve to have to pay for a new one


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Old 07-02-2020, 10:50 AM
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So who has Trijicon, Holosun, and Romeo/Sig, and what do you think of each? Holosun seems to have a really good reputation, with Trijicon the king of the hill. Any downside to the Holosun? If I bought the Holosun I should still have access to my sights. If I buy the Trijicon (which I'd prefer), I need to get suppressor sights and at some point the set up is now more than the gun cost which is probably ridiculous.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HKAllTheThings View Post
Look at it side by side with the Holosuns or the Deltapoint Pro. It's distorted as hell.
The RMR's are the industry standard when it comes to red dots for handguns.

INDUSTRY STANDARD

You probably don't even have any rounds down range with any red dot on any pistol.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krb View Post
So who has Trijicon, Holosun, and Romeo/Sig, and what do you think of each? Holosun seems to have a really good reputation, with Trijicon the king of the hill. Any downside to the Holosun? If I bought the Holosun I should still have access to my sights. If I buy the Trijicon (which I'd prefer), I need to get suppressor sights and at some point the set up is now more than the gun cost which is probably ridiculous.
The problem with Holosun is they have too many models.

They are starting to develop somewhat of a reputation for reliability but that doesn't mean that all their products share the same durability and reliability.

I'm not ready to trust them on a defensive gun. If I want to carry with a red dot, I will carry my 19. If I want to carry with something smaller, I will carry my 43.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:55 AM
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Industry Standard? Why does that matter to you?
Maybe trust your own eyes. Go look at them yourself.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:58 AM
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Again. You don't have any experience shooting with any of them so nothing you say matters.
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
The problem with Holosun is they have too many models.

They are starting to develop somewhat of a reputation for reliability but that doesn't mean that all their products share the same durability and reliability.

I'm not ready to trust them on a defensive gun. If I want to carry with a red dot, I will carry my 19. If I want to carry with something smaller, I will carry my 43.

Not sure what you'd be looking at with Holosun?

For handguns, it's either the 507c, with the dot/circle-dot reticle options....or the 407c with just the dot reticle.

Ok, red or green reticle.....


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Old 07-02-2020, 12:13 PM
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What about the 508?

But the point I is that there doesn't seem to be a large enough userbase of any one model in use to come to any good conclusions other than they are above average for range use, IMO.

The few known trainers out there using them seem to be paid promotors.

For me, they just aren't there yet when it comes to a reputation of reliability and durability that I would put one on a defensive gun, when I know you can trust the RMR. I am over 7-8k rounds on my very first Type 1 that I put in my Glock 19 back in late 2013.
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:36 PM
oddjob oddjob is offline
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1) What are your thoughts at using the Trijicon and losing the irons?

Appears to me your intention for the 365 is a defensive handgun. I would lean towards skipping the dot and stay with iron sights.

2) Anyone have experience with Holosun and Romeo? I think Holosun 507k is brand new so I assume no one has experience with it. I would assume it works as the other Holosun 507's so then I would ask what experience people have with Holosun in general and Sig Romeo in particular.

I have no experience with the Holosun or Romeo. I do with the Leupold Delta Pro Point (7.5 triangle dot) and a Trijicon SRO. I like both but lean towards the SRO due to the large glass. Here's something to think about ....the batteries in both is easy to change. I don't have to remove the sight. I shoot USPSA and we USPSA folks put a lot of rounds through the guns (at a lower power level). Pro shooter Ben Stoeger has 25,000 rounds through one of his Glock 34's with the SRO with mostly Gold Dots and its still going. I realize its a bigger gun and has less "shock" to the dot.

3) What would you do if this were you?

I would stay with irons until something else is developed or tested. Or maybe go for a laser type system.

good luck!!
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Old 07-02-2020, 1:13 PM
HKAllTheThings HKAllTheThings is online now
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Trijicon rep on here.
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Old 07-02-2020, 1:17 PM
krb krb is offline
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Originally Posted by Erion929 View Post
Not sure what you'd be looking at with Holosun?

For handguns, it's either the 507c, with the dot/circle-dot reticle options....or the 407c with just the dot reticle.

Ok, red or green reticle.....


.
For Holosun only 507K fits the 365.
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  #37  
Old 07-02-2020, 1:17 PM
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tonyxcom tonyxcom is offline
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Originally Posted by HKAllTheThings View Post
Trijicon rep on here.
Gun store employee on here.

Also, I just ordered a Delta Point for my P320. Again, I have actual rounds down range with red dots on handguns since 2013. You've seen a few YouTube videos.
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Old 07-02-2020, 2:01 PM
krb krb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddjob View Post
1) What are your thoughts at using the Trijicon and losing the irons?

Appears to me your intention for the 365 is a defensive handgun. I would lean towards skipping the dot and stay with iron sights.

2) Anyone have experience with Holosun and Romeo? I think Holosun 507k is brand new so I assume no one has experience with it. I would assume it works as the other Holosun 507's so then I would ask what experience people have with Holosun in general and Sig Romeo in particular.

I have no experience with the Holosun or Romeo. I do with the Leupold Delta Pro Point (7.5 triangle dot) and a Trijicon SRO. I like both but lean towards the SRO due to the large glass. Here's something to think about ....the batteries in both is easy to change. I don't have to remove the sight. I shoot USPSA and we USPSA folks put a lot of rounds through the guns (at a lower power level). Pro shooter Ben Stoeger has 25,000 rounds through one of his Glock 34's with the SRO with mostly Gold Dots and its still going. I realize its a bigger gun and has less "shock" to the dot.

3) What would you do if this were you?

I would stay with irons until something else is developed or tested. Or maybe go for a laser type system.

good luck!!
Thank you. I agree with everything. First choice is add Trijicon RMR and keep sights. However, it doesn't fit. So it would adapter plate plus suppressor sights and now I've put more money into the gun than the gun costs. So I think I'm getting stupid.

I could add a Holosun and keep the current sights. For now I'm thinking just keep the irons. I shoot them well. I also have a P365 SAS but I don't like the kooky sights. I might think about switching them out for the Holosun. I think I'll just keep the Sig the way it is for now.

The reason for considering the red dot is I REALLY like the idea of focusing on the threat instead of on the front sight and having the threat blurry. For shooting paper it's not a big deal but I would imagine in a defensive situation it would be very helpful to be able to focus on the threat instead of the front sight.

Thanks everyone!
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Old 07-02-2020, 2:18 PM
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Erion929 Erion929 is offline
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Originally Posted by krb View Post
The reason for considering the red dot is I REALLY like the idea of focusing on the threat instead of on the front sight and having the threat blurry. For shooting paper it's not a big deal but I would imagine in a defensive situation it would be very helpful to be able to focus on the threat instead of the front sight.

Thanks everyone!

Yep, you can focus on the target and just float the dot there....works!

.
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