Catholics are Christians

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by ENTHUSIAST

How do Catholics defend all of the Non-Biblical Mary worship and the use of so many different forms of Pagan Symbols that the RCC uses in their rituals?

Non-Biblical Mary/Goddess Worship is clearly Pagan how can the RCC be considered a "Christian" religion?

The Babylonian Mitre hat?

The Mystical Greek Pine Cone staff aka the Thyrsus of Bacchus... Why is there is no mention of a "Pine Cone" in the Bible?

Catholic/Babylonian serpent Crosier... Where in the Bible did Jesus carry a snake crosier?

Why has the RCC elevated Mary ABOVE Jesus? Is it because she is not the Mary from the Bible but "the Goddes" that has been worshiped since antiquity Inanna, Ishtar, Isis, Astarte, Mithras, Minerva etc.

Mary has even been directly referred to as "the Queen of Heaven" by the RCC itself they don't even hide their Goddes worshipping.

Mary Crowned and "Baby Jesus" with a Neptune Trident halo?

Worshipping dead and dismembered corpses how is that Biblical?

Enthusiast, Just to be crystal clear, I’m NOT a catholic. I never have been. However, like any professed Christian religion (Lutheran, Calvin, Quaker, etc...) I do believe that most (not all) Catholics hold to the core Christian doctrine, but WITH SERIOUS ERROR.

Ok, my disclaimer is out of the way. To understand Catholicism, we must really understand what they practice, because there is much FUD and misconceptions out there. It’s with their secondary issues that most of us Christians have with them.

Catholicism:

-They don't worship Mary. That's a misunderstanding of Roman Catholic dogma but they do “venerate” her. Some within do venerate her right up to line of demarcation between “worship” and just honoring her. Yes some individuals within Catholicism do indeed “worship” her too and that’s WRONG. But the majority that know their own religion, do not “worship” her.

-They don't worship idols. That's a misnomer. The fact that you have statues or icons, doesn't mean you're worshiping them. The prohibition of scripture is to make an idol or icon to “worship” in place of God. If in fact images in and of themselves were idolatrous, then God would have been guilty of contradicting himself because He commanded the Israelites to adorn the Arc of the Covenant with images of cherubim. So there's nothing wrong with images. You just should not bow down and worship them, that is the point.

With all the mistakes you find in Roman Catholicism, you don't want to add mistakes that are simply not there. Again, the catholic church is a true church but has some significant error.

They believe when the pope speaks in ex cathedra or "from the chair," that he is infallible and what he says now, becomes binding dogma. As any Christian knows, including many practicing Catholics who reject their own Pope as being “infallible,” only Jesus was infallible in human form.

On the issue of the catholic belief in “Purgatory,” (defined by he council of Florence in 1439 and then officially defended by the council of Trent in the late 16th century.) Purgatory is "limbo" of the soul. It's an idea that doesn't have biblical validity but has become current dogma. It is nowhere found in the cannon of scripture. If you’d like to know where it comes from specifically I can tell you where to find it in the Appocrapha, but that’s another story.

Purgatory also undermines the efficiency of Christ's atonement on the cross because the Bible says that Christ "...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." -Hebrews 10:14 (NIV). So the debt is finished and therefore a purgatory wouldn’t be necessary for God to have created.

It needs to be pointed out however that The new Catholic encyclopedia has now recognized that Purgatory is not from the canon of scripture.

Anyway, that’s how I see it. Just my opinion after really taking an in-depth look into the Catholic Church.

[FresnoRob]

Originally Posted by DolphinFan

Islam and Judaism believe in the SAME GOD.

No they don’t. Muslims will say they do. Jews will say they do not. Simply using the same name or word for God does not make it the same God.
Ask either of them to explain who God is, not using scripture and you will quickly discover they do not see Him the same.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

Enthusiast, Just to be crystal clear, I’m NOT a catholic. I never have been. However, like any professed Christian religion (Lutheran, Calvin, Quaker, etc...) I do believe that most (not all) Catholics hold to the core Christian doctrine, but WITH SERIOUS ERROR.

Ok, my disclaimer is out of the way. To understand Catholicism, we must really understand what they practice, because there is much FUD and misconceptions out there. It’s with their secondary issues that most of us Christians have with them.

Catholicism:

-They don't worship Mary. That's a misunderstanding of Roman Catholic dogma but they do “venerate” her. Some within do venerate her right up to line of demarcation between “worship” and just honoring her. Yes some individuals within Catholicism do indeed “worship” her too and that’s WRONG. But the majority that know their own religion, do not “worship” her.

-They don't worship idols. That's a misnomer. The fact that you have statues or icons, doesn't mean you're worshiping them. The prohibition of scripture is to make an idol or icon to “worship” in place of God. If in fact images in and of themselves were idolatrous, then God would have been guilty of contradicting himself because He commanded the Israelites to adorn the Arc of the Covenant with images of cherubim. So there's nothing wrong with images. You just should not bow down and worship them, that is the point.

With all the mistakes you find in Roman Catholicism, you don't want to add mistakes that are simply not there. Again, the catholic church is a true church but has some significant error.

They believe when the pope speaks in ex cathedra or "from the chair," that he is infallible and what he says now, becomes binding dogma. As any Christian knows, including many practicing Catholics who reject their own Pope as being “infallible,” only Jesus was infallible in human form.

On the issue of the catholic belief in “Purgatory,” (defined by he council of Florence in 1439 and then officially defended by the council of Trent in the late 16th century.) Purgatory is "limbo" of the soul. It's an idea that doesn't have biblical validity but has become current dogma. It is nowhere found in the cannon of scripture. If you’d like to know where it comes from specifically I can tell you where to find it in the Appocrapha, but that’s another story.

Purgatory also undermines the efficiency of Christ's atonement on the cross because the Bible says that Christ "...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." -Hebrews 10:14 (NIV). So the debt is finished and therefore a purgatory wouldn’t be necessary for God to have created.

It needs to be pointed out however that The new Catholic encyclopedia has now recognized that Purgatory is not from the canon of scripture.

Anyway, that’s how I see it. Just my opinion after really taking an in-depth look into the Catholic Church.

Have you studied salvation as defined and taught by the RCC vs. Biblical Salvation?

Pastor Bill

[colossians323]

Originally Posted by DolphinFan

Islam and Judaism believe in the SAME GOD.

NOPE, did you read any of the in depth study with foot notes, archaeological evidence, and moslems own teachings? My guess is you did not and you believe because of your feelings and not from all the evidence contrary

[MarikinaMan]

Originally Posted by billvau

The RCC (Roman Catholic Church) is not "Christian" as defined in the Bible -clearly seen in their doctrine and teaching. The Catholic church simply does NOT have Christian doctrine.

And, at the Council of Trent, the RCC clearly pronounced Biblical Christians as "anathema" - we're going to hell!

https://carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification

In addition, the RCC puts the church as greater authority than the Bible. They say that they created the Bible! So, you have to listen to the church over the Bible.

I could go on and on. But, the bottom line is that the RCC is not a Christian denomination. They are not "Christian." So, if God saves someone who is currently in the RCC, they will move OUT of the RCC to a Christian church per Phil. 1:6. You cannot be sanctified in a non-Christian church.

Pastor Bill

Pffft.

Chris·tian
ˈkrisCHən/Submit
adjective
1.
relating to or professing Christianity or its teachings.
"the Christian Church"
noun
1.
a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

“However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name” (1 Peter 4:16).

Ephesians 2:8-9 - “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”

[an actual gun]

Originally Posted by ENTHUSIAST

How do Catholics defend all of the Non-Biblical Mary worship and the use of so many different forms of Pagan Symbols that the RCC uses in their rituals?

Non-Biblical Mary/Goddess Worship is clearly Pagan how can the RCC be considered a "Christian" religion?

The Babylonian Mitre hat?

The Mystical Greek Pine Cone staff aka the Thyrsus of Bacchus... Why is there is no mention of a "Pine Cone" in the Bible?

Catholic/Babylonian serpent Crosier... Where in the Bible did Jesus carry a snake crosier?

Why has the RCC elevated Mary ABOVE Jesus? Is it because she is not the Mary from the Bible but "the Goddes" that has been worshiped since antiquity Inanna, Ishtar, Isis, Astarte, Mithras, Minerva etc.

Mary has even been directly referred to as "the Queen of Heaven" by the RCC itself they don't even hide their Goddes worshipping.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quee...en_(antiquity)

Mary Crowned and "Baby Jesus" with a Neptune Trident halo?

Worshipping dead and dismembered corpses how is that Biblical?

Archbishop Fulton Sheen said it best: "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church."

I'll answer everything in points, I removed pictures just to save space.

Serpents, pine cones, the mitre, and "pagan" symbols? The worst you could grant is that Catholicism, as it spread west with the movement of Christians on instruction from Christ, in some way appropriated symbology of pagan origin. Some of these claims are dubious though. The bottom line should be not what they wear, but what do they teach? Do they teach the triune God; from the Father proceeds the Son and from both doth proceed the Holy Ghost? Do they teach salvation by Jesus Christ through his crucifixion and resurrection? Do they teach that Jesus Christ was the son of God and had two natures both God and Man? Read the Creed, that's what Catholics believe. Catholics were the first Christians. They compiled the very Bible that Protestants say "sola scriptura!" The creeds of all Christian denominations essentially come from Catholic creeds...

Mary above Jesus? Not even by a long shot. Please talk to any catechist, any priest, any scholar of Catholicism or of comparative religion... No Catholic places Mary ABOVE Jesus. In the Gospel the angel Gabriel told Mary hail, full of grace. Or in Protestant retranslations, highly favored one. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she told Mary, "blessed art thou among women." God favored Mary above all other women and she was given more grace than any human ever before, that through her womb, merely mortal, merely flesh, was allowed to pass the Son of God. Everything we venerate about Mary is because of something God did to her; she is not divine, but had a special relationship with the divine person of Jesus Christ, who is God. That does not place her in a hierarchy above Jesus Christ.

Worship of Mary? Or of idols? Again, not by a long shot. Mary is venerated. Devotion to Mary is made. This is not worship. And none of this is required for salvation or anything like that, it is simply in the Church's magisterium and its long traditions, that it is moral and good to venerate the Mother of God. And there are no Catholic idols for the very same reason of the definition of worship. Catholics have icons depicting Jesus Christ, Mary, various saints, etc. These objects themselves are not worshiped, and not even prayed to. Catholics do believe Jesus, Mary, and all saints hear our prayers, but none pray to them in the sense that they pray to God. What Catholics believe is that the saints, that is all who are in Heaven, can hear our prayers and pray with us to God the Father but only through the Son. Anyways these images are merely there for inspiration of said prayer.

Mary as the Queen of Heaven? This is a title given to the Blessed Mother and it conforms with Davidic tradition of what a queen is. If Christ is King, King of the Jews, King of Israel, King of Kings, King of Heaven and Earth, etc. then by Davidic tradition his mother, at least in the absence of a wife, is a type of queen. The title for Mary as "Queen" is biblically, traditionally, and historically sound. Notice that it still doesn't equivocate her with Jesus, not by Davidic tradition or what was biblically considered a queen. Just use common sense, again with the doctrine of the Church and who it purports to worship, and the fruits of its work (1500 years of converting people to Christianity before Martin Luther ever came along; even if you think the Church is in error, it bore the fruits of Christianity.) If the Church really believed Mary was Isis, or some other feminine pagan god, why would they teach that worshiping her as such is gravely sinful, and heretical, and historically would've put that person to death for it being a crime? In other words, if the Church were of paganism, or of Satan, then how has it led so many people to Christ? Including, ultimately, the people you claim are the true Christians?

Worshiping dead/dismembered bodies? Well, again, it's not worship. Relics are in the Bible. Reverence for the dead is in the Bible. Catholics believe the dead can hear our prayers... this is in the Septuagint, which in Protestant Bibles is altered to remove several books. Every Christian believes in preserving a place for the dead, we call them cemeteries... You will see people kneeling and praying there too. Are they worshiping the dead? Those burial practices you see involving the remnants of dead bodies and of the relics of saints are part of the Judeo-Christian funerary tradition.

These all may represent very serious doctrinal differences with other forms of Christianity but to argue that Catholicism is not Christianity is absurd. The core of what Christianity is was defined by the Catholic Church and is still taught by churches who don't even claim to be Catholic.

Do you believe just anyone can start a church by the way? Or do you believe what the Bible teaches, in that there is one universal Church that Jesus Christ established?

Now, who was the first leader of that Church, after Jesus Christ himself? Whom did Christ entrust that Church to and give authority over it? And where did that man go, and what did he do, and where did he die?

Matthew 16:15-19

15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

That man, St. Peter, would start the churches in Antioch, and in Rome, and in Rome he died, as essentially the first bishop of Rome, as the founder, after Jesus Christ of course, of the world's first, and only, Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church. And that is the Roman Catholic Church today, from which every Christian denomination came.

You can call it wrong, or corrupted, but you cannot say it is not Christianity. It makes no logical sense to say that it is is not Christianity. If you throw Catholicism completely out, all you have is a bunch of mere men who founded their own churches, not the Church that Jesus started and entrusted to St. Paul. And that Church defined the creed and canon that every Christian denomination today is based on and claims to profess. That Church still teaches those things and still reads from that book as the inspired word of God. So without said Church, how would any of those mere men ever have even arrived at the conclusions they did?

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by DolphinFan

In some countries, one star inside the crescent moon is used as a symbol, but this was created by the Ottoman Empire and later adopted by Islam as a whole.

I don’t think you fully know your history, as evidenced by your comment above. You do know that the official religion of the Ottoman Empire was Islam, right??? Specifically, Sharia was the rule of civil law and Kanun was the rule for the few Christians and Jews amongst the Ottomans.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by cbn620

Archbishop Fulton Sheen said it best: "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church."

I'll answer everything in points, I removed pictures just to save space.

Serpents, pine cones, the mitre, and "pagan" symbols? The worst you could grant is that Catholicism, as it spread west with the movement of Christians on instruction from Christ, in some way appropriated symbology of pagan origin. Some of these claims are dubious though. The bottom line should be not what they wear, but what do they teach? Do they teach the triune God; from the Father proceeds the Son and from both doth proceed the Holy Ghost? Do they teach salvation by Jesus Christ through his crucifixion and resurrection? Do they teach that Jesus Christ was the son of God and had two natures both God and Man? Read the Creed, that's what Catholics believe. Catholics were the first Christians. They compiled the very Bible that Protestants say "sola scriptura!" The creeds of all Christian denominations essentially come from Catholic creeds...

Mary above Jesus? Not even by a long shot. Please talk to any catechist, any priest, any scholar of Catholicism or of comparative religion... No Catholic places Mary ABOVE Jesus. In the Gospel the angel Gabriel told Mary hail, full of grace. Or in Protestant retranslations, highly favored one. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she told Mary, "blessed art thou among women." God favored Mary above all other women and she was given more grace than any human ever before, that through her womb, merely mortal, merely flesh, was allowed to pass the Son of God. Everything we venerate about Mary is because of something God did to her; she is not divine, but had a special relationship with the divine person of Jesus Christ, who is God. That does not place her in a hierarchy above Jesus Christ.

Worship of Mary? Or of idols? Again, not by a long shot. Mary is venerated. Devotion to Mary is made. This is not worship. And none of this is required for salvation or anything like that, it is simply in the Church's magisterium and its long traditions, that it is moral and good to venerate the Mother of God. And there are no Catholic idols for the very same reason of the definition of worship. Catholics have icons depicting Jesus Christ, Mary, various saints, etc. These objects themselves are not worshiped, and not even prayed to. Catholics do believe Jesus, Mary, and all saints hear our prayers, but none pray to them in the sense that they pray to God. What Catholics believe is that the saints, that is all who are in Heaven, can hear our prayers and pray with us to God the Father but only through the Son. Anyways these images are merely there for inspiration of said prayer.

Mary as the Queen of Heaven? This is a title given to the Blessed Mother and it conforms with Davidic tradition of what a queen is. If Christ is King, King of the Jews, King of Israel, King of Kings, King of Heaven and Earth, etc. then by Davidic tradition his mother, at least in the absence of a wife, is a type of queen. The title for Mary as "Queen" is biblically, traditionally, and historically sound. Notice that it still doesn't equivocate her with Jesus, not by Davidic tradition or what was biblically considered a queen. Just use common sense, again with the doctrine of the Church and who it purports to worship, and the fruits of its work (1500 years of converting people to Christianity before Martin Luther ever came along; even if you think the Church is in error, it bore the fruits of Christianity.) If the Church really believed Mary was Isis, or some other feminine pagan god, why would they teach that worshiping her as such is gravely sinful, and heretical, and historically would've put that person to death for it being a crime? In other words, if the Church were of paganism, or of Satan, then how has it led so many people to Christ? Including, ultimately, the people you claim are the true Christians?

Worshiping dead/dismembered bodies? Well, again, it's not worship. Relics are in the Bible. Reverence for the dead is in the Bible. Catholics believe the dead can hear our prayers... this is in the Septuagint, which in Protestant Bibles is altered to remove several books. Every Christian believes in preserving a place for the dead, we call them cemeteries... You will see people kneeling and praying there too. Are they worshiping the dead? Those burial practices you see involving the remnants of dead bodies and of the relics of saints are part of the Judeo-Christian funerary tradition.

These all may represent very serious doctrinal differences with other forms of Christianity but to argue that Catholicism is not Christianity is absurd. The core of what Christianity is was defined by the Catholic Church and is still taught by churches who don't even claim to be Catholic.

Do you believe just anyone can start a church by the way? Or do you believe what the Bible teaches, in that there is one universal Church that Jesus Christ established?

Now, who was the first leader of that Church, after Jesus Christ himself? Whom did Christ entrust that Church to and give authority over it? And where did that man go, and what did he do, and where did he die?

Matthew 16:15-19
That man, St. Peter, would start the churches in Antioch, and in Rome, and in Rome he died, as essentially the first bishop of Rome, as the founder, after Jesus Christ of course, of the world's first, and only, Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church. And that is the Roman Catholic Church today, from which every Christian denomination came.

You can call it wrong, or corrupted, but you cannot say it is not Christianity. It makes no logical sense to say that it is is not Christianity. If you throw Catholicism completely out, all you have is a bunch of mere men who founded their own churches, not the Church that Jesus started and entrusted to St. Paul. And that Church defined the creed and canon that every Christian denomination today is based on and claims to profess. That Church still teaches those things and still reads from that book as the inspired word of God. So without said Church, how would any of those mere men ever have even arrived at the conclusions they did?

Again I’m NOT a catholic, but I agree with the above that the overall majority of Catholics are indeed Christian.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by billvau

Have you studied salvation as defined and taught by the RCC vs. Biblical Salvation?

Pastor Bill

^^^ Actually yes. Extensively I might add. The same question needs to be asked of you ...Pastor.

Originally Posted by billvau

The RCC (Roman Catholic Church) is not "Christian" as defined in the Bible -clearly seen in their doctrine and teaching. The Catholic church simply does NOT have Christian doctrine.

^^^ Please show us where in the Bible that catholics are NOT Christian in your opinion. Again, while I believe Catholics are in serious error on “secondary” issues, Catholics share in the core Christian beliefs that most “Protestants” like me believe in. Most Catholics believe that:

-Jesus is Lord
-Jesus is the Son
-Jesus is The Savior
-The virgin birth
-The Holy Trinity
-The cruxifction
-The resurrection
-The Second Coming
-Salvation comes through Christ
-Repentance
-Forgiveness

On a side note, what I also find fascinating is that Catholics do NOT believe in a pretribulational rapture. Again, this is a secondary issue that I also happen to agree with the Catholics on this one, because there isn’t one single passage nor group of passages to support that early 20th century created myth.

[wpage]

Judge not lest ye be judged...

Folk are classified in many ways. Religion Major classes...
Jews
Christians
Moslem

There are also many sub classes and other belief systems quasi spiritual as well.

Understandings and personal compass followings are a entirely other thing. For those who believe in God. There are countless ways to have a personal relationship.

All that really matters is how God judges us !

[Makarios031]

Originally Posted by DolphinFan

In Islam
The words used in the Shema prayer are similar to the words of Sura 112 (Al-Tawhid or Monotheism) in Quran. The words "أَحَدٌ" in Arabic is identical to the word "אֶחָד" in Hebrew.

Arabic: قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ‎‎ - Qul Huwa 'Llāhu ʾAḥad ("Say, He is Allah the One")

Hebrew: :שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יהוה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יהוה אֶחָד‎ - Sh'ma Yisra'el YHVH Eloheinu YHVH Eḥad
It is the Central Tenant of the Jewish Religion.
Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

They may appear similar but the morphology reflects otherwise:
https://www.al-islam.org/enlightenin...as-chapter-112
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.j...er=112&verse=1
http://biblehub.com/text/deuteronomy/6-4.htm

the One/أَحَدٌ in Surah 112 is an noun and epithet for Allah

one/אֶחָד in Deut. 6:4 (and the Greek in Mark 12:29-31) is an adjective describing the plural proper noun GOD/Elohim supporting the concept of the Trinity

[billvau]

Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash

^^^ Actually yes. Extensively I might add. The same question needs to be asked of you ...Pastor.


^^^ Please show us where in the Bible that catholics are NOT Christian in your opinion. Again, while I believe Catholics are in serious error on “secondary” issues, Catholics share in the core Christian beliefs that most “Protestants” like me believe in. Most Catholics believe that:

-Jesus is Lord
-Jesus is the Son
-Jesus is The Savior
-The virgin birth
-The Holy Trinity
-The cruxifction
-The resurrection
-The Second Coming
-Salvation comes through Christ
-Repentance
-Forgiveness

On a side note, what I also find fascinating is that Catholics do NOT believe in a pretribulational rapture. Again, this is a secondary issue that I also happen to agree with the Catholics on this one, because there isn’t one single passage nor group of passages to support that early 20th century created myth.

So, honestly, if I were to go to a the Catholic church and tell them I want to know exactly how to get to heaven when I die - in detail. I want to know what I need to do from right now through to when I'm being let into heaven. How would the church answer me?

[I Swan]

I'm surprised nobody has said much in this thread about the differences between Catholic Mass and Protestant communion and what they feel it represents.

[eta34]

I follow many of the threads in the forum and have read much of your responses. In this thread, I’m baffled. Respectfully, if you know what the Catholic responses and answers are, why be so cryptic? Many of us don’t know and are interested in learning. This weird exchange is off-putting. How about a simple side-by-side comparison of the two, point by point, so others can decide? Thanks.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by I Swan

I'm surprised nobody has said much in this thread about the differences between Catholic Mass and Protestant communion and what they feel it represents.

Good point. Either at the beginning of this thread or back over in the thread that got hijacked, I did bring up the fact that the Catholic mass is known as the "Bloody Mass" because they re-crucify Christ at every mass. i didn't mention transubstantiation in their communion vs. remembrance (which is all the Bible calls for in 1 Cor. 11).

[eta34]

I cannot edit my post from my phone, but it was directed at Bill. Somehow that part was cut off.

[Citadelgrad87]

Originally Posted by billvau

Good point. Either at the beginning of this thread or back over in the thread that got hijacked, I did bring up the fact that the Catholic mass is known as the "Bloody Mass" because they re-crucify Christ at every mass. i didn't mention transubstantiation in their communion vs. remembrance (which is all the Bible calls for in 1 Cor. 11).

Ridiculous. Im a cradle catholic, and thats nonsense.

The mass re enacts the last supper, and recited Jesus’ words to his apostles to take and eat his body and blood, BEFORE he was crucified, because the last supper was before he was crucified, and his instructions were to do so in his memory. There is no verbal or ritual crucifixion during any mass that i have ever attended except when a passion play is incorporated, and that is a separate event and not part of the sacrament of mass.

Eastern orthodox masses are identical.

The crucifixion is mentioned because Jesus died for our sins, it is not in any way a part of the mass. I have to wonder if you have ever attended a single catholic mass.

Despite your self appointed credentials, you have no idea what you are talking about.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

Ridiculous. Im a cradle catholic, and thats nonsense.

The mass re enacts the last supper, and recited Jesus’ words to his apostles to take and eat his body and blood, BEFORE he was crucified, because the last supper was before he was crucified, and his instructions were to do so in his memory. There is no verbal or ritual crucifixion during any mass that i have ever attended except when a passion play is incorporated, and that is a separate event and not part of the sacrament of mass.

Eastern orthodox masses are identical.

The crucifixion is mentioned because Jesus died for our sins, it is not in any way a part of the mass. I have to wonder if you have ever attended a single catholic mass.

Despite your self appointed credentials, you have no idea what you are talking about.

why do you continue to personally attack? Shouldn't the love of Christ control you (2 Cor. 5:14)?

The RCC mass has been known as the "Bloody Mass" for centuries because the Eucharist and the sacrifice of Christ are the same.

Official RCC doctrine: "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."

You may not like or agree with others views of the RCC, but personal attacks are unnecessary and will get you banned from the forum. Just answer with your alternative facts and let each person decide for themselves.

[nedro]

Christians who think that Catholics are not Christian, are not Christian at all.
They seem unable find love of another though Jesus.
They seem to think of themselves as somehow superior.
I think Jesus would have a real problem with most of these Christian exclusionary's that have outed themselves on this thread.

[mlevans66]

I spent at least ten mins reading this thread. The debate is AWESOME. Then educated answers and the back and forth. I wish this was televised or in person! I learned today!

[Citadelgrad87]

Originally Posted by billvau

why do you continue to personally attack? Shouldn't the love of Christ control you (2 Cor. 5:14)?

The RCC mass has been known as the "Bloody Mass" for centuries because the Eucharist and the sacrifice of Christ are the same.

Official RCC doctrine: "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."

You may not like or agree with others views of the RCC, but personal attacks are unnecessary and will get you banned from the forum. Just answer with your alternative facts and let each person decide for themselves.

I did not personally attack you at all. You're a revisionist. I stated only facts, and asked if you've attended a catholic mass. You want to pretend that's a personal attack? Wow.

The Roman Catholic mass does not crucify Christ, yet you claim it does. You're either lying or don't know what you're talking about. I picked the less inflammatory.

Remembering His sacrifice is not crucifying him at mass.

I've attended hundreds of celebrations of mass, NONE crucified Christ in word or ritual. I was an altar boy, and attended catholic grammar school. It never happened. There's a lot to disagree with the church, making things up isn't necessary.

Tell me how I am wrong.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

I did not personally attack you at all. You're a revisionist. I stated only facts, and asked if you've attended a catholic mass. You want to pretend that's a personal attack? Wow.

The Roman Catholic mass does not crucify Christ, yet you claim it does. You're either lying or don't know what you're talking about. I picked the less inflammatory.

Remembering His sacrifice is not crucifying him at mass.

I've attended hundreds of celebrations of mass, NONE crucified Christ in word or ritual. I was an altar boy, and attended catholic grammar school. It never happened. There's a lot to disagree with the church, making things up isn't necessary.

Tell me how I am wrong.

"Despite your self appointed credentials, ...," is a purposefully, demeaning attack. You could've asked my credentials if you were truly interested. When you label a person's post as "ridiculous" and "nonsense" you are also attacking and not responding.

I quoted you official RCC doctrine and you didn't refute that (which one can't). That doctrine says that the celebration of the Eucharist IS the SAME as the sacrifice of Christ - "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice" AND since the RCC believes in transubstantiation, you are handling the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ at each mass. You should be proud of this - it's your doctrine. I'm just pointing out that this is different that the biblical doctrine of "remembrance" from 1 Cor. 11.

If I came to you and asked how exactly to get to heaven in the RCC, what would you tell me?

[eta34]

This has gotten stupid. Bill, you’ve done the exact thing you accuse others of. If you are interested in teaching others, post a point by point comparison of RCC and mainstream Protestant views and cite evidence.

[WASR10]

I feel it necessary to point out that this isn't necessarily a Catholic vs Protestant question. It's more of a scriptural vs non-scriptural question. There are Christian groups that are neither Catholic or Protestant. So the question really comes down to, what does God recognize as a Christian, and how does one determine what God is looking for?

[billvau]

Originally Posted by eta34

This has gotten stupid. Bill, you’ve done the exact thing you accuse others of. If you are interested in teaching others, post a point by point comparison of RCC and mainstream Protestant views and cite evidence.

Hi eta34- sorry that this hasn't gone the way you want/expect. The thread was started by an assertion that Catholics are Christians - without any doctrinal support. In the previous thread, and this one, I've brought actual RCC doctrine to my posts and I'm finding they don't want to answer to their own doctrine.

RCC doctrine differs in many, many ways, but the essence of this discussion *should be* regarding how one gets into heaven. The RCC requires baptism as necessary to "infuse" the faith and grace necessary to go to heaven. It's called baptismal regeneration. That's what the Bible calls a work (Romans 3:21-31, Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc. explain). The Bible teaches faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone. If you do any kind of work, then you're not saved (i.e. not credited with the Righteousness of Christ).

Romans 3:21-31 explains Christian salvation and Romans 4 gives biblical examples, mostly of Abraham, showing how this has been and still is always true: E.g. (the capitals are from the Bible, not from me!):

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,..."

They view grace different, and many other things, but the essence is that they differ in their view of how to get to heaven. They even go so far to say that those who believe otherwise are anathema - condemned to hell (us faith alone, grace alone, in Christ alone, no works, believers). That was from the Council of Trent and recently re-affirmed by the pope in 2013 at the 450th anniversary. There are couple of minor points of the massive Trent Canon set that they've changed, but not the anathemas that I've quoted.

So, biblical Christianity and the RCC differ on how one gets to heaven - by doctrine. Individual opinions and beliefs differ as you've seen here. That's why one has to stick to church doctrine. I'm surprised that the RCC'rs here don't defend and proclaim their way to heaven so that others too can have the right path. I proclaim and defend the biblical view because I sincerely believe that there is no other way to heaven and I want to see as many people there as possible!

God bless!

[Citadelgrad87]

Originally Posted by billvau

"Despite your self appointed credentials, ...," is a purposefully, demeaning attack. You could've asked my credentials if you were truly interested. When you label a person's post as "ridiculous" and "nonsense" you are also attacking and not responding.

I quoted you official RCC doctrine and you didn't refute that (which one can't). That doctrine says that the celebration of the Eucharist IS the SAME as the sacrifice of Christ - "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice" AND since the RCC believes in transubstantiation, you are handling the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ at each mass. You should be proud of this - it's your doctrine. I'm just pointing out that this is different that the biblical doctrine of "remembrance" from 1 Cor. 11.

If I came to you and asked how exactly to get to heaven in the RCC, what would you tell me?

Your position that the catholic mass is a blood mass that crucifies Jesus is ridiculous.

I don't care what your credentials are, and you've stated them several times, it does not mean you know what you are talking about.

Sentences in the doctrine stating that the eucharist and the crucifixion are the same DOES NOT mean Jesus is crucified during any catholic mass.

You're wrong. You found a sentence you disagree with, good for you.

THAT DOES NOT ESTABLISH THAT JESUS IS CRUCIFIED IN ANY CATHOLIC MASS.

I've been to hundreds, it doesn't happen.

And stop bloviating that "they disagree with their own doctrine." Don't ever profess to speak for me. I am demolishing your position, not disagreeing with the church.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

Your position that the catholic mass is a blood mass that crucifies Jesus is ridiculous.

I don't care what your credentials are, and you've stated them several times, it does not mean you know what you are talking about.

Sentences in the doctrine stating that the eucharist and the crucifixion are the same DOES NOT mean Jesus is crucified during any catholic mass.

You're wrong. You found a sentence you disagree with, good for you.

THAT DOES NOT ESTABLISH THAT JESUS IS CRUCIFIED IN ANY CATHOLIC MASS.

I've been to hundreds, it doesn't happen.

And stop bloviating that "they disagree with their own doctrine." Don't ever profess to speak for me. I am demolishing your position, not disagreeing with the church.

Titus 1:10-16 explains you well. You haven't demolished anything of mine, as I've stuck to the doctrine of the RCC and the Bible.

How do you get to heaven in the RCC? Please answer.

[Citadelgrad87]

Originally Posted by billvau

Titus 1:10-16 explains you well. You haven't demolished anything of mine, as I've stuck to the doctrine of the RCC and the Bible.

How do you get to heaven in the RCC? Please answer.

I've demolished your assertion that Catholics crucify Jesus during mass. That's what you were claiming, and its destroyed. I've been to hundreds of masses, and catholic catechism, and it's wrong.

To respond, you purport to quote doctrine equating communion with the crucifixion. Which doesn't establish the nonsense you are claiming.

I don't dance with people whose apparent self appointed calling is attacking other religions.

You're the expert, so you aren't asking a sincere question anyway.

Why would you engage in that?

Everyone watching knows. So do you.

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

I've demolished your assertion that Catholics crucify Jesus during mass. That's what you were claiming, and its destroyed. I've been to hundreds of masses, and catholic catechism, and it's wrong.

To respond, you purport to quote doctrine equating communion with the crucifixion. Which doesn't establish the nonsense you are claiming.

I don't dance with people whose apparent self appointed calling is attacking other religions.

You're the expert, so you aren't asking a sincere question anyway.

Why would you engage in that?

Everyone watching knows. So do you.

How do you get to heaven in the RCC? Please answer.

[Citadelgrad87]

Originally Posted by billvau

How do you get to heaven in the RCC? Please answer.

I already answered. Here it is again

I don't dance with people whose apparent self appointed calling is attacking other religions.

And, again, you like to tell everyone you're the expert, so it's not a sincere question.

[nedro]

All Catholics are Christian. But not all Christians are Catholic.
Of that, there is no argument!

[billvau]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

I already answered. Here it is again

I don't dance with people whose apparent self appointed calling is attacking other religions.

And, again, you like to tell everyone you're the expert, so it's not a sincere question.

It's a very sincere question. I truly want to get to heaven and if I have the wrong way, I want to know.

How does one get to heaven in your church? Please answer.

[eta34]

This could have been very productive. Any assertion that all RCC’s are not Christian and not going to heaven is utterly ridiculous. As a reformer, I have huge issues with much of the RCC doctrine. But it seems in my layman view that they agree on the essentials.

I have asked Bill, who has repeatedly told us his expertise, to do a comparison for those of us who haven’t attended seminary. It would seem that someone who possesses such knowledge and is concerned about the salvation of the unbeliever would do this, or point me to someone who has already. I just don’t get it.

Certainly there are plenty of RC’s who will be going to hell. Same of the Protestants. I don’t think anyone would argue that. But I’ve yet to see a good explanation on this thread why the RCC as a whole is not Christian.

[Subotai]

This is why I don't believe you need intercession from Mary or the Saints:

Romans
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Every time I get around Catholics, it's usually Mary-this, and Mary-that. While we should honor and respect her, I think we need to leave her and the saints out of it when we want to talk to God. Same thing with Hail Mary's, how about Hail Jesus? What's the purpose of this difference?

[colossians323]

Originally Posted by nedro

All Catholics are Christian. But not all Christians are Catholic.
Of that, there is no argument!

Well this can obviously be debated. I think our fruits bear our salvation, and many whom call themselves Catholic, or Christian both have fruits that show otherwise

[WASR10]

I posted this already in the thread, but maybe it could help the discussion along:

In regards to whom is saved, the Bible is quite clear about what salvation is, and who receives it. Anything that deviates from that results in missing out on the glory of heaven. So the teachings of any group will speak for themselves and, when held against the scriptures, a judgment can be righteously made.

Now, there are two definitions to what a "Christian" is. One is a technical description, most often used by the secular world, that describes a Christian as any person who believes that Jesus is the Christ. Then there is a Biblical definition; one who the Bible defines as a Christian. This definition involves someone who believes and obeys and is a member of the church Jesus founded. Most of the debate will come from the latter definition: who does the Bible say is a Christian, what does Jesus or His inspired followers teach, who ARE His inspired followers, and what do they teach?

So then, who would like to outline what they believe the Bible says about who will be saved? I have my answer ready. But I am neither Catholic or Protestant. So maybe those of these groups should answer first.

From there, maybe people can start to get an idea of who is and who is not Christian?

[billvau]

Originally Posted by eta34

I have asked Bill, who has repeatedly told us his expertise, to do a comparison for those of us who haven’t attended seminary. It would seem that someone who possesses such knowledge and is concerned about the salvation of the unbeliever would do this, or point me to someone who has already. I just don’t get it.

I posted a long, salvation-focused post to you above. From that post, help me with other things you were looking for.

Thanks!
Bill

[I Swan]

Well that didn't go well mentioning Catholic Mass. Anyways how about about the Catholic practice of confessing their sins to a priest and penance? I feel this a major difference of Catholics and Protestant beliefs also

[vintagearms]

Originally Posted by I Swan

Well that didn't go well mentioning Catholic Mass. Anyways how about about the Catholic practice of confessing their sins to a priest and penance? I feel this a major difference of Catholics and Protestant beliefs also

Matthew 18:20. I think has to do something about gathering other people and asking forgiveness.

[TrailerparkTrash]

Originally Posted by billvau

So, honestly, if I were to go to a the Catholic church and tell them I want to know exactly how to get to heaven when I die - in detail. I want to know what I need to do from right now through to when I'm being let into heaven. How would the church answer me?

The same way they answered my wife’s very question: Believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and raised from the dead for our sins.

Next question ...Pastor?