Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Rimfire Firearms
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Rimfire Firearms .22, .17 and other Rimfire Handguns and Rifles

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-12-2013, 3:19 PM
deckhandmike's Avatar
deckhandmike deckhandmike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Morro Bay
Posts: 8,167
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default The limits of rimfire?

With all the new restrictions on centerfire rifles coming down the pipe I was wondering how bad *** could you make a rimfire cartridge? I know nothing of reloading but I'm curious if a large population of people where willing to pay .50 cents a round for instance what are the limitations of the rimfire design and costs? How close could we get to .223 ballistics?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-12-2013, 3:21 PM
Whitefang's Avatar
Whitefang Whitefang is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: L.A county
Posts: 1,238
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Read this

http://www.hickokfamilygenealogy.com...the_22_LR.html
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPlink View Post
If you suck with irons you will suck with optics. The difference is the aimpoint will allow you to suck faster and a scope will give you a closer look at how much you suck.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-12-2013, 3:25 PM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,784
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefang View Post
Nice. Just an FYI, there's a section of highway 76 in Oceanside named for a CHP officer shot and killed from 100 yards away by a kid with a .22 who just wanted to see if the round would get that far.....
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-12-2013, 3:41 PM
nastyhabts26 nastyhabts26 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,104
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

A .22 magnum is a zippy little round and will amaze some people.
Limitations are the wind speed, but we have made kills on rabbits out to 300 yards.
Not a lot but we have done it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-12-2013, 4:15 PM
swifty swifty is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Central CA
Posts: 929
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Rimfire cartridges have been around for many decades, in many different calibers. A simple internet search should be able to provide you with some options.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-12-2013, 5:56 PM
deckhandmike's Avatar
deckhandmike deckhandmike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Morro Bay
Posts: 8,167
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Did a google search. Results were kinda vague. Sorry, .22lr is great but what can rimfire really do? Anything fast like a .17 with more weight?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-12-2013, 6:21 PM
'ol shooter's Avatar
'ol shooter 'ol shooter is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4,634
iTrader: 89 / 100%
Default

It will deter an attacker (real experience), and really piss off a Bear. Anything in between is a crap shoot.
__________________

Bob B.
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-12-2013, 6:26 PM
midlife midlife is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 711
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol shooter View Post
It will deter an attacker (real experience), and really piss off a Bear. Anything in between is a crap shoot.
Was the bear story real too?
__________________
----------------------------
K80 Trap Special
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-12-2013, 6:28 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 44,084
iTrader: 133 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol shooter View Post
It will deter an attacker (real experience), and really piss off a Bear. Anything in between is a crap shoot.
????????? Largebore rimfire rounds have taken big game and killed plenty of attackers with one shot.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-12-2013, 6:54 PM
LiferLance LiferLance is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 374
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

I think CA may make a largebore rim fire a marketable cartridge. It would have to be similar to the 5.7x28 though so that rifle and pistol types could use the same round.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-12-2013, 7:00 PM
missiondude's Avatar
missiondude missiondude is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mesa AZ, land of the free!
Posts: 1,647
iTrader: 24 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiferLance View Post
I think CA may make a largebore rim fire a marketable cartridge. It would have to be similar to the 5.7x28 though so that rifle and pistol types could use the same round.
Until they fix the "loophole" and ban it when it becomes popular...
__________________
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The original common sense gun law...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-12-2013, 7:05 PM
deckhandmike's Avatar
deckhandmike deckhandmike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Morro Bay
Posts: 8,167
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

The 5.7x28 was actually the kinda round I was wishing for in rimfire.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-12-2013, 7:12 PM
thomashoward's Avatar
thomashoward thomashoward is offline
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 1,991
iTrader: 72 / 100%
Default

Shot placement is still king
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-12-2013, 7:14 PM
safety-1st's Avatar
safety-1st safety-1st is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,300
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

This will answer all your questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-12-2013, 7:33 PM
dangerranger dangerranger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: the exact center of CA
Posts: 578
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

There are a couple of new rimfire rounds comming out and the re introduction of the 5mm remington. All of them are at the lower end of 223 bulistics. 17 winchester rimfire is the newest. DR
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-12-2013, 7:54 PM
chad allred's Avatar
chad allred chad allred is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 877
iTrader: 23 / 100%
Default

I have no problem killing small game at 200 yards with my 17hmr....
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-12-2013, 8:20 PM
coy80176's Avatar
coy80176 coy80176 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Palookaville, Californication
Posts: 1,917
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Arrow Good video...and kind of funny too

A few gems:

- one thing we've gathered here is a couple things...

- ...it will hurt your azz.

- if you get a hole in you that you weren't born with, you will die
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-12-2013, 9:34 PM
postal postal is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Riverside
Posts: 4,566
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

There is a big limitation on rimfire due to the strength of the casing around the rim. This limits pressure.

You can get pretty decent performance with some of the rimfire rounds out there... but nothing approaching moderate centerfire loads.

Also the obvious downside is that you cant reload rimfire.

As to the legislation and what you can/cant have/lethality... perhaps you should look at a modern black powder with sabot hunting rounds. I do expect it to pack a lot more wallop at distance than a rimfire. And you can reload it cheaply (except the price of the sabots)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-12-2013, 9:55 PM
G21Shooter's Avatar
G21Shooter G21Shooter is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 3,577
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

The most powerful rimfire round on the market currently is the 17 Winchester Supermag. It has 400 ft/lbs at the muzzle.

If a semi auto platform could be made that shot this round, think dedicated AR15 upper, it would be a potent gun for a rimfire at least.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-12-2013, 10:12 PM
SonofWWIIDI's Avatar
SonofWWIIDI SonofWWIIDI is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Santa Clara county
Posts: 21,541
iTrader: 8 / 100%
Default

Tagged. I'm interested!
__________________
Sorry, not sorry.
🎺

Dear autocorrect, I'm really getting tired of your shirt!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-12-2013, 10:16 PM
glockman19 glockman19 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 10,487
iTrader: 18 / 100%
Default

Israel snipers use .22lr to quietly kill.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-13-2013, 6:53 AM
6mmintl's Avatar
6mmintl 6mmintl is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Free land, Star Idaho.
Posts: 4,823
iTrader: 51 / 98%
Default

Keep in mind .22s,l,LR are loaded with LEAD bullets and new laws are going to be coming down the liberal pipeline restricting shooting in public places (Public Ranges) soon.

Hunting with a .22 is now out.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-13-2013, 10:49 AM
Izzy43's Avatar
Izzy43 Izzy43 is offline
CGSSA Rimfire Coordinator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Idyllwild, Ca (in the snow)
Posts: 2,670
iTrader: 9 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6mmintl View Post
Keep in mind .22s,l,LR are loaded with LEAD bullets and new laws are going to be coming down the liberal pipeline restricting shooting in public places (Public Ranges) soon.

Hunting with a .22 is now out.
Thought I was aware of all the new proposed laws. Which laws are in the pipeline to restrict the use of lead bullets? I know about the ones in the Condor Zone. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-13-2013, 11:26 AM
MyOdessa's Avatar
MyOdessa MyOdessa is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor - Lifetime
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Nor. Cal.
Posts: 2,072
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Old story, but I never seen it disputed for accuracy, except I did read same account, where she fired up to 6-8 rounds, reloading, one after another, from the single shot .22 LR rifle, possibly Stevens Favorite.

.22 LR FTW.



Quote:
On a spring day back in 1953, 63-year-old Bella Twin and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse and picking berries near Lesser Slave Lake in the Swan Hills of northern Alberta, Canada. As the story goes, they were walking an oil-exploration survey line when they ran into a humongous grizzly bear following the same line toward them. The two feared that if they ran, the grizzly would notice them and give chase, so they hid in a brush pile and hoped the big bruin would pass without any trouble.

Unfortunately for the bear, it was intent on getting its share of berries and came very near Twin and Auger. Frightened by the close encounter, Twin raised the rifle she was carrying and fired. Her aim was dead on. The grizzly was struck in the head and fell dead.

Bella’s bear was no ordinary griz. Its skull scored 26 5/16, placing it at the top of the list of Boone and Crockett world’s records where it stayed for many years. The bear currently ranks number 30 among the all-time records and still stands as the longest-reigning provincial big-game record in Alberta.


In the half century since Twin killed her record grizzly, many differing accounts of the incident have been given. However, all of them agree on one thing: little Bella Twin killed that 1,000-pound-plus griz with the humblest of all rifles—a single-shot, bolt-action, .22-caliber rimfire. With just one long-rifle cartridge, this petite Cree Indian grandmother finished off one of the biggest grizzlies ever documented and earned remembrance as one of the world’s truly legendary hunters.
http://catfishgumbo.blogspot.com/200...dmas-griz.html

Last edited by MyOdessa; 09-13-2013 at 11:30 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-13-2013, 11:43 AM
dominic's Avatar
dominic dominic is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Imperial Valley
Posts: 3,038
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

The 22lr can bring down just about any game in north America. Saying that, as with any other round, shot placement is the key along with good tracking skills, since larger game may travel a ways before bleeding out. During the depression my father told us that him and his older brother fed an entire family of 12 with a single shot .22 and 12 gauge loaded with bird shot (and the occasional cut shell). If you don't know what a shotgun cut shell is, its a real old way to turn bird shot into a self-contained deer slug, but many say its not safe is not recommended.

Last edited by dominic; 09-13-2013 at 11:47 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-13-2013, 2:42 PM
command_liner command_liner is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Heart of the Valley, Oregon
Posts: 1,086
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

My recollection is that the Martini-Henry is rimfire.
How about a .557 rimfire? Is that good enough?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-13-2013, 2:44 PM
'ol shooter's Avatar
'ol shooter 'ol shooter is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4,634
iTrader: 89 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by midlife View Post
Was the bear story real too?
Absolutely, cross my heart.
__________________

Bob B.
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-14-2013, 8:49 AM
chad allred's Avatar
chad allred chad allred is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 877
iTrader: 23 / 100%
Default

Wow...cut shells...learned something new there,never heard of them
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-14-2013, 9:30 AM
rromeo's Avatar
rromeo rromeo is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Radford, VA
Posts: 6,984
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

What about a non-traditional rimfire? It uses a standard boxer primer, offset in the case so now itis no longer centerfire.
The sticking point is indexing the primers, but it's not insurmountable. We're making a new cartridge and gun, so we can make changes from tradition.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-14-2013, 11:47 AM
coverme2's Avatar
coverme2 coverme2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 269
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
Nice. Just an FYI, there's a section of highway 76 in Oceanside named for a CHP officer shot and killed from 100 yards away by a kid with a .22 who just wanted to see if the round would get that far.....
That was not just "a kid with a .22 who just wanted to ser if the round would get that far......". He and he and his companions are documented gang members. They were seeking status with their gang. He and one of the three who were there are now in prison without the possibility of parole. As responsible firearms owners, read the links in the story...and prepare to be disgusted.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loca...y-Son----.html
__________________
I'd rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-14-2013, 12:26 PM
spamsucker spamsucker is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 701
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

The original Henry rifle used a .44cal rimfire that was good for >1000fps with a 200gr LRN. Rimfire cases can handle pretty impressive pressures, some up around 30,000+psi.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-14-2013, 12:34 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 44,084
iTrader: 133 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rromeo View Post
What about a non-traditional rimfire? It uses a standard boxer primer, offset in the case so now itis no longer centerfire.
The sticking point is indexing the primers, but it's not insurmountable. We're making a new cartridge and gun, so we can make changes from tradition.
That would not fit the definition of "rimfire". But, it might not fit the definition of "centerfire" either.
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor
Utah CCW Instructor


Offering low cost multi state CCW, private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.

CCW SAFE MEMBERSHIPS HERE

KM6WLV
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-14-2013, 1:00 PM
dominic's Avatar
dominic dominic is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Imperial Valley
Posts: 3,038
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coverme2 View Post
That was not just "a kid with a .22 who just wanted to ser if the round would get that far......". He and he and his companions are documented gang members. They were seeking status with their gang. He and one of the three who were there are now in prison without the possibility of parole. As responsible firearms owners, read the links in the story...and prepare to be disgusted.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loca...y-Son----.html
Thank you, the statement that he "just wanted to see if it would go that far" was bugging me to no end, like it was an excuse for what this punk did.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-14-2013, 1:05 PM
njineermike's Avatar
njineermike njineermike is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 9,784
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominic View Post
Thank you, the statement that he "just wanted to see if it would go that far" was bugging me to no end, like it was an excuse for what this punk did.
Not excusing it in the slightest. Just pointing out a .22LR can kill from a distance.
__________________
NRA lifetime member
2AF Defender member

When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: ‘I can’t wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!’

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kestryll View Post
Dude went full CNN...
Peace, love, and heavy weapons. Sometimes you have to be insistent." - David Lee Roth
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-14-2013, 1:08 PM
ogarcia_02 ogarcia_02 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,398
iTrader: 11 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy43 View Post
Thought I was aware of all the new proposed laws. Which laws are in the pipeline to restrict the use of lead bullets? I know about the ones in the Condor Zone. Thanks.
AB 711 (Rendon)
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...201320140AB711
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-14-2013, 1:41 PM
jakejake527's Avatar
jakejake527 jakejake527 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: ~ ~ ~ ~ Top Secret ~ ~ ~
Posts: 1,078
iTrader: 56 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by coverme2 View Post
That was not just "a kid with a .22 who just wanted to ser if the round would get that far......". He and he and his companions are documented gang members. They were seeking status with their gang. He and one of the three who were there are now in prison without the possibility of parole. As responsible firearms owners, read the links in the story...and prepare to be disgusted.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loca...y-Son----.html
I live right by that highway....sad story
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-14-2013, 5:35 PM
rromeo's Avatar
rromeo rromeo is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Radford, VA
Posts: 6,984
iTrader: 25 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
That would not fit the definition of "rimfire". But, it might not fit the definition of "centerfire" either.
I may be mistaken, but does"rimfire" actually appear in any law? Most things mentio. "Centerfire" and we are on our own to conclude that rimfire is exempt. While it may not be a rimfire as we know it, not a centerfire means the same thing.
__________________
Never initiate force against another. That should be the underlying principle of your life. But should someone do violence to you, retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, without quarter, until you are sure that he will never wish to harm - or never be capable of harming - you or yours again.

- from THE SECOND BOOK OF KYFHO
(Revised Eastern Sect Edition)
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-14-2013, 7:46 PM
chknlyps2's Avatar
chknlyps2 chknlyps2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Out in the sticks
Posts: 2,191
iTrader: 51 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6mmintl View Post
Keep in mind .22s,l,LR are loaded with LEAD bullets and new laws are going to be coming down the liberal pipeline restricting shooting in public places (Public Ranges) soon.

Hunting with a .22 is now out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy43 View Post
Thought I was aware of all the new proposed laws. Which laws are in the pipeline to restrict the use of lead bullets? I know about the ones in the Condor Zone. Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogarcia_02 View Post
This Bill has not been signed into law yet, we all need to contact Governor Brown (Call, Email, Fax) http://govnews.ca.gov/gov39mail/mail.php and urge him to veto AB 711 and all the other gun Bills that are on his desk now.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-16-2013, 1:11 PM
kkp's Avatar
kkp kkp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SFV
Posts: 1,374
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiferLance View Post
I think CA may make a largebore rim fire a marketable cartridge. It would have to be similar to the 5.7x28 though so that rifle and pistol types could use the same round.
Rimfire is not banned in CA ONLY because it is relatively innocuous. If someone was to start cranking out enough large caliber rimfire weapons that can cause serious harm (easier than you can with .22lr, at least), you can be darned sure the word "rimfire" would be added right back into to every law on the books, ASAP.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-16-2013, 1:13 PM
kkp's Avatar
kkp kkp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SFV
Posts: 1,374
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rromeo View Post
I may be mistaken, but does"rimfire" actually appear in any law? Most things mentio. "Centerfire" and we are on our own to conclude that rimfire is exempt. While it may not be a rimfire as we know it, not a centerfire means the same thing.
I think it does appear in a couple of laws, but not the ones we're worried about. Because the most pertinent laws specify "centerfire", anything not meeting the definition of centerfire is inherently unaffected by those laws.

If it's not specifically illegal, it's legal. That's how our legal system works. You have to be charged with violating a specific law.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 1:52 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy