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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 08-08-2019, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
And that semi black fella from Kenya. Claimed that 90% of ALL NRA members wanted stricter gun control, and Universal BG checks.
He's more white than black. He just looks black.
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  #42  
Old 08-09-2019, 7:56 AM
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Referring to anyone by racial identity is just as wrong as voting for or against someone because of race.

The Kenyan has a name and there is no reason to not say Barry Sotaro or Barack Obama.

That said Alan Keyes or Alan West is running against Joe Biden. Who are you folks voting for ?

Its time to contact our friends in DC and let them know states are doing the red flag laws where applicable .
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  #43  
Old 08-09-2019, 8:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
.
.
.
The Kenyan has a name and there is no reason to not say Barry Sotaro or Barack Obama.
.
.
.
It actually is wrong to say "Barry Sotaro".

His name is "Barry Soetoro".
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  #44  
Old 08-09-2019, 1:01 PM
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Rep. Dan Crenshaw was on Crowder to explain his stance on the TAPS bill as well as the Red Flag bill. It was good to see him voice his concerns. He would support only if there was a "preponderance of evidence" from multiple sources, harsh punishment for false accusations and a court hearing with an attorney for the accused.
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  #45  
Old 08-09-2019, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
Sheesh Brother its the New York Times again ! They are making you dance to their tune !
Mitch and the GOP are solid for RKBA ! What are you talking about ?

Is Breitbart good enough for you? This is what I'm talking about:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...ter-in-senate/


Quote:
The Courier-Journal reports that McConnell was a guest on the Louisville, KY, Terry Meiners Show where he said, “What we can’t do is fail to pass something,” adding, “The urgency of this is not lost on any of us.”
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  #46  
Old 08-09-2019, 1:47 PM
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Remember, you can also write to Senate and House committees. Those staffers read the emails and forward good ideas up the chain of command.

Example: You could write in support of Red Flag laws, citing that the mom of the shooter reported him to police. But insist that it be paired with concealed carry reciprocity, citing the hero soldier in el Paso who was armed, and the firefighter who stopped the guy at Wal-Mart. What if the El Paso soldier crossed over into New Mexico? Shouldn’t he be able to be safe across state lines?

In California’s gun-free zone, a mass stabbing just took place. Don’t people have the fundamental human right to right to defend themselves?
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  #47  
Old 08-09-2019, 6:25 PM
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Taking Second Amendment rights away from people for non-criminal reasons is already on the books. Someone who has been adjudicated “as a mental defective” or involuntarily committed to a mental institution can’t buy a gun.

But again, due process is key.

As Independent Institute Research Director Dave Kopel explained to Congress back in March, while some state laws stipulate that only law enforcement can bring a red flag petition to a judge, newer versions allow petitions to be brought by “spurned dating partners or relationships from long ago.”

Another problem with some so-called red flag laws is that they allow confiscation orders to be issued ex parte, meaning that they can be issued when a judge only hears one side of the story and the target of the petition is not permitted to defend himself.
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  #48  
Old 08-10-2019, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Fastattack View Post
Is Breitbart good enough for you? This is what I'm talking about:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...ter-in-senate/
LOL Yes I will take breitbart as a legitimate source . Thank you !
Solid, steady, reliable Mitch who has been a friend for decades is now going to push for an AW ban !
No its just a statement to help unify those people who have no idea why we have a 2nd amendment and how valuable it is for a free society.

That said, it was kind of expected Americans of high character would know how to shoot and they would enjoy regular range days of fellowship and fun!
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  #49  
Old 08-10-2019, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
LOL Yes I will take breitbart as a legitimate source . Thank you !
Solid, steady, reliable Mitch who has been a friend for decades is now going to push for an AW ban !
No its just a statement to help unify those people who have no idea why we have a 2nd amendment and how valuable it is for a free society.

That said, it was kind of expected Americans of high character would know how to shoot and they would enjoy regular range days of fellowship and fun!

I hope you are right. Mitch might be smart enough to just agree to talk, just to get it off the 24hr news cycle, then give it a half-hearted effort when back in session where it will fail in the Senate. Hopefully.
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  #50  
Old 08-24-2019, 7:20 PM
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Follow up from an article on Reason.com regarding the relatively low consequence for perjury:

"Theoretically, they could be prosecuted for lying, but that almost never happens. "The odds of criminal prosecut[ion] are low, even if an affidavit is sworn under
penalty of perjury," David Kopel, a gun policy expert at Denver's Independence Institute, noted in Senate testimony last March. "Perjury prosecutions are rare, and rarer still from civil cases….Without a strong civil remedy, there is little practical deterrent to malicious reports."

https://reason.com/2019/08/23/new-yo...cation-orders/
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  #51  
Old 08-24-2019, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by uscscjohn View Post
Please don't be too hasty about attacking "red flag" laws because they can make sense if well written enough to require real red flags.

There are two important legal issues your thoughtful analysis overlooks. First, there is a huge gap between institutionalization and safety. It is very difficult to prove a person enough of a risk to have him or her institutionalized. If anyone knew how hard it is, they would not demand guns should be kept away from a person only if the burden of forced institutionalization is met. People are forced to turn in guns while on bail. Guilt has not been adjudicated. I have no problem with that. A well crafted red flag law could create a similar "bridge" between clear threat and proof of deadly crazy.

Second, a wife's accusations can already cause guns to be taken from a husband. A restraining order is fairly easy to get in a bitter divorce case. Once issued the restrained party can and is dispossessed of firearms. In other words, the dread result you fear is already here and it is not sufficiently dire that people are even aware of it.

Good points. I accept the "dread result you fear is already here" soberly.

---

I would ordinarily agree with you regarding "they can make sense if well written enough to require real red flags" if this weren't Clown World, but sadly it IS Clown World, and things we Americans once thought totally reasonable and logical and normal are being turned upside down.

My biggest concern is that even if red flag laws were written perfectly now, the gun control freaks WILL work to move the goalposts later.
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  #52  
Old 08-25-2019, 9:09 AM
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Red Flag laws are not about gun control. They are all about people control.
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  #53  
Old 08-25-2019, 9:45 AM
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If a person is red flagged should they have access to other tools that might be used a weapons ?
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  #54  
Old 08-25-2019, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ja308 View Post
If a person is red flagged should they have access to other tools that might be used a weapons ?
That would be an absolute hoot to hear about in the news:

"Person adjudicated danger to self or other by neighbor in Red Flag dispute not eligible to own hack saw, hand saw, circular saw, screw driver, hammer, box cutter, shaving razor, fork, knife, pencil, pen, letter opener or any other office supply with an edge or point.

Garden tools such as shovels, rakes, hoe, shears, trowels and garden hoses.

Further more, person must now have teeth removed, hands/feet amputated at the wrist/ankle.

Story at 11."
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  #55  
Old 08-25-2019, 7:45 PM
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It's scary how so many "smart" "concerned" members here on Calguns are so fricking easily distracted from that which lies at the very tip of their nose:

The States always have, still have and always will have at their disposal the following:

Adjudication of those suspected of being dangerously mentally ill.


This whole "red flag" thing is a perfect example of psychological warfare by the statist elite used to distract the populace from important, substantive and fundamental aspects of a problem.


The elite don't like due process for the "simpletons", don't like to pay for it - nor do they want to pay for the care of those who are adjudicated as dangerously mentally ill.


5150s, TROs, "red flags" are all about getting YOU to support THEIR run around of due process - and the proper care of those targeted under due process.


The same bull**** manipulation is played out against the marijuana legalization movement.

Everyone and everyone in the marijuana legalization movement is constantly pushing for federal marijuana legalization . . . and I'm on the sideline with:

"Why are you wasting time and money pushing for marijuana legalization when the federal government has no authority to ban simple possession of anything under the constitution to being with?"


Bottom line...

Nothing will seriously change in terms of protecting our rights until WE as the general populace stop reacting the way THEY want us to THEIR psychological warfare.

The moment the general populace across the various states remind their states of their responsibility to use a tool they already have - adjudication of the dangerously mentally ill - and that no other "tools" are needed . . .

The moment that the general populace across the various states remind the federal government that they have no authority to ban the simple possession of anything under the Constitution (since the repeal of the prohibition on alcohol) . . .

The progressive elites that like to think they run the country will crap in their pants. Because that is when they will know - the populace is no longer falling for their manipulative games.

So long as you let THEM play YOU against YOURSELF - this crap will continue.

=8-(
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  #56  
Old 08-25-2019, 8:04 PM
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Spot-on and well said MrRabbit.
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  #57  
Old 08-25-2019, 8:08 PM
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Spot-on and well said MrRabbit.
Thank you!

=8-)
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  #58  
Old 08-25-2019, 8:19 PM
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red flag laws just make easier for people who do not know you to deny you your right to private property mainly rifles and pistols due to imagined threats in their minds. making ammo impossible to get through useless licensing, over taxation, and outright outlawing of ammo sales makes your rifles and pistols metal, wood/plastic clubs. One or the other way they are out to get your weapons. Isn't this state wonderful? (LOL)
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  #59  
Old 08-25-2019, 8:33 PM
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Over the target --
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  #60  
Old 08-25-2019, 8:47 PM
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Do they loose their 1st amenment rights too if flagged?
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  #61  
Old 08-26-2019, 12:14 AM
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Do they loose their 1st amenment rights too if flagged?
. . . kinda takes me back to that scene in a Transformer's movie when Optimus is asking rhetorical questions.

=8-)
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  #62  
Old 08-26-2019, 9:51 AM
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Do they loose their 1st amenment rights too if flagged?
Called a gag order.
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  #63  
Old 08-26-2019, 10:08 AM
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Default Not one more inch -That's what she said

I'm tired of ceding ground. Anyone pushing gun control from any party should get push back. According to the CDC more people are saved by defensive gun use. The UK and Australia homicide rates did not decrease after bans. The US rates have dropped, without bans.
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  #64  
Old 09-14-2019, 10:32 PM
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Here's a follow-up article on how the medical profession is being overrun by "social justice."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/take-tw...ns-11568325291

"The American College of Physicians says its mission is to promote the “quality and effectiveness of health care,” but it’s stepped out of its lane recently with sweeping statements on gun control. "

"A new wave of educational specialists is increasingly influencing medical education. They emphasize “social justice” that relates to health care only tangentially. This approach is the result of a progressive mind-set that abhors hierarchy of any kind and the social elitism associated with the medical profession in particular. "


Pretty soon, maybe within one or two graduating classes, the majority of doctors who get to determine who is mentally ill will be hardcore anti-gun social justice cultists.

Last edited by dchang0; 09-14-2019 at 10:37 PM..
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  #65  
Old 09-15-2019, 1:26 AM
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The 'red flag' law will pass overwhelmingly. Then we will suffer many egregious confiscations and one of them will eventually make its way to court where it will be found unconstitutional because the law is based upon what someone might do and confiscation takes place without a legal proceeding finding cause or guilt. Back to square one with lives ruined. This will take years to undo. Meanwhile the antis will be pushing another "common sense' law.
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  #66  
Old 09-15-2019, 3:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeeze View Post
The 'red flag' law will pass overwhelmingly. Then we will suffer many egregious confiscations and one of them will eventually make its way to court where it will be found unconstitutional because the law is based upon what someone might do and confiscation takes place without a legal proceeding finding cause or guilt. Back to square one with lives ruined. This will take years to undo. Meanwhile the antis will be pushing another "common sense' law.
Sounds like you understand the judicial system. I spent 30 years in the courts and that is exactly what will happen. My neighbor is a federal district court judge and he says the same thing.
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  #67  
Old 09-15-2019, 3:46 AM
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As the JFPO notes, "red flags" and AMERICA do NOT go together...

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  #68  
Old 09-15-2019, 4:16 AM
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Exclamation Truth...

Well stated...
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Originally Posted by Ugly Hombre View Post
The "Red Flag" law is a false flag. Enacted it will have no effect on crime.

However-

The Republicans will cave. Almost certainly... The Democrat New Bolsheviks will then jump for joy. Its a ancient tactic of Communists to mark their political enemies as mentally ill people and then purge them. The Red Flag law gives the Socialist/ Communist/Democrats that power

In the future (2020?) when the Neo- Communist Democrats gain power again in all three branches, they will use it in a totally ruthless manner, to disarm those that resist them and/ or those that they perceive will resist them. That is their plan- count on it. It has nothing to do with public saftey, as we all know, only to well- that they do not give a damn about that.

Sad times for our Republic ahead..
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  #69  
Old 09-15-2019, 8:42 AM
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There was a time when civil rights were considered something worth fighting for - we need to reframe all of these efforts. Bring back the civil rights movement.
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  #70  
Old 09-15-2019, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeeze View Post
The 'red flag' law will pass overwhelmingly. Then we will suffer many egregious confiscations and one of them will eventually make its way to court where it will be found unconstitutional because the law is based upon what someone might do and confiscation takes place without a legal proceeding finding cause or guilt. Back to square one with lives ruined. This will take years to undo. Meanwhile the antis will be pushing another "common sense' law.
And the blood will be on the hands of those who voted for it.

The blood of those who refuse to be disarmed for no crime, those who choose to violate the constitution and the oaths they swar to uphold. The families of police who will die while "following orders".

Families will be torn apart by bitter libs who call police on siblings, cousins, parents or children.

The division of our country will widen and the political parties will grab more power.
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  #71  
Old 09-15-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Epaphroditus View Post
There was a time when civil rights were considered something worth fighting for - we need to reframe all of these efforts. Bring back the civil rights movement.
Civil rights come from the barrel of a gun.
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  #72  
Old 09-15-2019, 2:42 PM
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No-one wants anymore mass shootings. With that said, these red flag laws are a terrible idea. Look at the Gov abuse of the FISA courts, FBI/DOJ abuse of their positions to work against candidate Trump, the abuse of Tech companies ignoring all privacy. No-one should be trusted with the power to predict and detain before a crime is committed... Kiss liberty goodbye. I believe the Russians would call anyone who agrees to this kind of plan a 'useful idiot'.
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  #73  
Old 09-15-2019, 3:21 PM
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" Supposedly Republicans are coalescing around "red flag" gun control "

Such a law would be shot down very easily be found to being unconstitutional. So makes sense to pass weak legislation you know will fail. And that will be the end of it.
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  #74  
Old 09-15-2019, 3:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Offwidth View Post
I do not think false filing is a problem. False reports are a crime, and can be written as such. And if there are clear mechanisms to return property, that is better than many other laws they can come up with.
For every falsely accused of domestic violence there are many many women saved from raging *******s husbands.
Yeah, slippery slope.
Everyone on a right wing form or a racist forum or a gun forum is mentally ill according to Leftists. They are going to turn you in. You are going to have your guns taken away and just maybe, if the judge likes you, and you get an expensive attorney, you can get your guns back.

Retaliation? The Leftists have no guns so the same procedure of snitching off them will not apply. This Red Flag thing is a one-way weapon of the Left directed at you.
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Old 09-15-2019, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Harry Ono View Post
Such a law would be shot down very easily be found to being unconstitutional. So makes sense to pass weak legislation you know will fail. And that will be the end of it.
I would never count on the US legal system to protect civil rights in general, let alone when guns are involved. It's a legal system, not a justice system.
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  #76  
Old 10-17-2019, 11:30 PM
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Here's an excellent interview between two attorneys about red flag laws.

The one being interviewed, Kendra Parris, is an expert on red flag laws in the state of Florida.

It's a long watch, at about 2.5 hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AxCYyjpyog
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  #77  
Old 10-18-2019, 6:34 AM
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Quote:
“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time,” Trump said at a meeting with lawmakers on school safety and gun violence.

“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.

Trump was responding to comments from Vice President Pence that families and local law enforcement should have more tools to report potentially dangerous individuals with weapons.
Trump is up for it.
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  #78  
Old 10-18-2019, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uscscjohn View Post
Please don't be too hasty about attacking "red flag" laws because they can make sense if well written enough to require real red flags.

There are two important legal issues your thoughtful analysis overlooks. First, there is a huge gap between institutionalization and safety. It is very difficult to prove a person enough of a risk to have him or her institutionalized. If anyone knew how hard it is, they would not demand guns should be kept away from a person only if the burden of forced institutionalization is met. People are forced to turn in guns while on bail. Guilt has not been adjudicated. I have no problem with that. A well crafted red flag law could create a similar "bridge" between clear threat and proof of deadly crazy.

Second, a wife's accusations can already cause guns to be taken from a husband. A restraining order is fairly easy to get in a bitter divorce case. Once issued the restrained party can and is dispossessed of firearms. In other words, the dread result you fear is already here and it is not sufficiently dire that people are even aware of it.

Just because there are existing laws that infringe on a person's 2A rights by taking guns from them before they have been found guilty of a crime that would make them a prohibited person is not justification for more such laws. And, IMHO you are dreaming if you think that any of the proposed laws will be "well crafted."
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