Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Curio & Relic/Black Powder
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-04-2017, 9:15 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default Original "issue" bayonets and the Swiss Rifle.

Matching Bayonets.
The chances of an existing, original issue bayonet to the original rifle is slim to none. As proven by the approximate 2,000 Bayonets that I assisted Graf's having imported, Bayonets were stocked by Bern and later, a number of Armouries, all without serial numbers.

When an issue bayonet was damaged or lost, a new bayonet was issued to that "in-service" soldier's rifle with that rifle's serial number. The chances of it having remained with the original rifle are both remote and absolutely unprovable. As it was entirely impractical and unneccessary and those issued bayonets were not logged in a permanent register in Bern............. However..........

Sad to say that a number of importers bringing in those same bayonets released by Bern and three other Armouries in 2016, factually re-numbered some (or a lot) of them to match in-stock k31s and/or G11s.......... and, no..... I'm not going to disclose my sources. They'd most likely never communicate with me again.
It is what it is, Gents.
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-04-2017, 9:48 AM
BrokerB's Avatar
BrokerB BrokerB is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Folsom , outside the walls
Posts: 4,193
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Micthells lives!!!
__________________
Beans and Bullets



2x SKS Trench Art $480 & $500
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...8#post28101198
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:29 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Is that one of them?? I actually don't recognize that one.

P
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-04-2017, 12:58 PM
81turbota's Avatar
81turbota 81turbota is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: The desert, Калифорния
Posts: 2,956
iTrader: 36 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latigo View Post
Is that one of them?? I actually don't recognize that one.

P
The famous fakers of force matched K98 Mausers and advertised them as "original"
__________________
C&R nut.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-04-2017, 1:09 PM
Jimja's Avatar
Jimja Jimja is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,068
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

What about the rifles with matching numbered bayonets that Simpsons sold for a while? I bought a K11 with a matching bayo from them a few years ago (no longer have the rifle)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-04-2017, 1:17 PM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I know Bob Simpson personally, and I know that neither he nor his people would ever do anything like that. Bob personally goes to Switzerland and Germany and hand selects ALL of his rifles and accessories.

P
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-04-2017, 1:30 PM
Jimja's Avatar
Jimja Jimja is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,068
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latigo View Post
Matching Bayonets.
The chances of an existing, original issue bayonet to the original rifle is slim to none.
So how do you explain Simpsons having sold quite a few rifles with matching bayonets? I personally bought 2, a couple of my friends bought a few, and quite a few more sold that I know

It had to have been at lease several dozen that I've seen for sale (not just on Simpsons site), were all those messed with?

Would they have been stamped to match the rifle in Switzerland? Here in the US by the importer?

What do you mean by "slim to none"? Would that roughly be 1 in a million? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 1,000?

You have a unique insight into these and I'm really curious what you think
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-04-2017, 2:24 PM
Syntax Error's Avatar
Syntax Error Syntax Error is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 캘리포니아인민공화국
Posts: 3,817
iTrader: 80 / 100%
Default

Has anyone compared the stampings of a recent bayonet and matched gun versus a period issued and correct bayonet to see if they look the same? We only have allegations here, no actual proof as of yet.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-04-2017, 3:23 PM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

I've already answered you. Bob Simpson personally seeks out and hand selects his inventories.
As for the rest of it, I've already said what I know. Am I going to give you sources because you're curious? Absolutely not.
The information is what I've been given.

You may believe what you wish, or research the subject for yourself, but first ask yourself how rifles that old and in Armouries for that long could be expected to be accompanied by the original issue bayonets.

Nothing further to say on this subject unless I'm asked to delete the post.

And I'm NOT Latigo. I'm his father, Pierre St.Marie.
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-04-2017, 3:30 PM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

In retrospect, I probably should at least give you the location of my source.
A long time friend of mine at RUAG in Bern, Switzerland.
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-04-2017, 3:54 PM
Jimja's Avatar
Jimja Jimja is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,068
iTrader: 62 / 100%
Default

I wanted to make it clear that I'm not accusing anybody of faking anything. I'm just trying to reconcile two things:

#1 is the statement about matching bayonets:
"Matching Bayonets. The chances of an existing, original issue bayonet to the original rifle is slim to none"

#2 is the fact that at least dozens of them have been sold within the last few years (that I've personally seen for sale) that had matching bayonets

In my mind there is a disconnect between "slim to none" vs dozens sold. If the ones sold are legit, than maybe it's "slim to none" to find them matching in 2016, because they've been bought up years earlier?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-05-2017, 4:36 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Jimja, I wasn't given particulars or numbers. Because I'd seen this question a number of times before on Swiss rifle forums here, in Germany and in Switzerland, I asked about it. "Slim to none" was his term, not mine.

I have no idea about numbers, but "dozens" doesn't seem to be a lot compared to total imports. I do have those figures from "Guisan", but it was three years ago, before his death, and it's somewhere within many hundreds of emails between us. My short term memory is rather bad now, but I'll see if I can find that email with the G11 and k31 imports as of that time. As I said, that was about 3 years ago, so the numbers have increased for sure.

I'll see what I can find.

P
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-08-2017, 3:48 AM
capt14k capt14k is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,301
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

I have a matching bayonet Swiss K11 purchased directly from Switzerland via Germany. It unusual but not unheard of. I believe the P64 designates this one was sold out of inventory to the soldier.








Last edited by capt14k; 12-08-2017 at 3:54 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-08-2017, 6:53 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Beautiful!! A truly great find.

P
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-08-2017, 7:20 AM
capt14k capt14k is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,301
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latigo View Post
Beautiful!! A truly great find.

P
Thank you. The price was right too. My friend in Germany found it and I got lucky on the bid. Even with the extra cost of importing I think I'm still in it for below market value.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-08-2017, 9:56 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

You bid on a German site. Good schtuff.
Not many of us monitor the German and Swiss auction sites.
Having a contact there is very important.

P
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:08 AM
BrokerB's Avatar
BrokerB BrokerB is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Folsom , outside the walls
Posts: 4,193
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

Reminds me of trying to get about 6 Russian SKS dust covers back to their mathching rifles.

Excellent find!
__________________
Beans and Bullets



2x SKS Trench Art $480 & $500
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...8#post28101198
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:33 AM
capt14k capt14k is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,301
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default Original "issue" bayonets and the Swiss Rifle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latigo View Post
You bid on a German site. Good schtuff.
Not many of us monitor the German and Swiss auction sites.
Having a contact there is very important.

P
Yes German site. Between 2 German sites I purchased 8 rifles. Lowers the import costs per rifle. All of them were much cheaper than here. Especially the Hungarian M.48 (91/30).

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Last edited by capt14k; 12-08-2017 at 12:16 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-08-2017, 3:57 PM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Cool beans, Cap.
Got photos?
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-08-2017, 4:17 PM
capt14k capt14k is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,301
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latigo View Post
Cool beans, Cap.
Got photos?
I've posted a couple before, but here is a couple shots of each of them. All of them are all matching except the stock on the 1922 Brazilian.

1935 Peruvian Short 7.65mm Mauser

1922 Brazilian Carbine 7mm Mauser

1935 Brazilian Long 7mm Mauser

1935 Chilean Carbine 7mm Mauser



Last edited by capt14k; 12-08-2017 at 4:23 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-08-2017, 4:22 PM
capt14k capt14k is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,301
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Here is the rest and probably the best of the group. I've only seen one Uruguayan for sale here which is the vz.37 Simpson's currently has for $3,700. If it was $1,200 less I would probably buy it. 1909 Peruvians I've seen a few but all have had mismatched bolts. Hungarian 48.M if available is usually the Sniper version. I can't recall a single non sniper for sale here, but they are quite common there.

1908 Uruguayan Long 7mm Mauser

1909 Peruvian Long 7mm Mauser

1952 Hungarian 48.M 7.62x54R



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Last edited by capt14k; 12-08-2017 at 4:27 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-08-2017, 8:17 PM
Enfield47's Avatar
Enfield47 Enfield47 is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Land of the free
Posts: 6,385
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Those are nice some looking rifles you've acquired.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-08-2017, 8:28 PM
oc16's Avatar
oc16 oc16 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Orange
Posts: 1,042
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Default

wait you can import rifles from other country's yourself?
__________________
retreat! we must go comrade we will fight again another day.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-09-2017, 7:33 AM
capt14k capt14k is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,301
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oc16 View Post
wait you can import rifles from other country's yourself?


Yes and no. You need a friend and licensed dealer on the other side. Ideally a friend who is a licensed dealer. Also a licensed importer here. Then you need to buy them, store them, get ATF import license, in the case of Germany BAFA export license, then ship them to airport, importer picks them up, marks them (important to get importer who is discrete and has laser), and then ships them to you if you have FLL03 or your FFL01. Cost for a single rifle about $500. Cost for 8 rifles about $2,000. Also takes over a year.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-09-2017, 7:43 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Very nice rifles, Cap............. and yes, Cap is right.
I've brought in a lot of Swiss rifles in the past 20 years, and you have to weigh import costs against rifle values. We had a great importer here in Montana for a long time, but he eventually retired. My exporter across the pond was always more than fair with me and, the big deal with my
importer was that he electro-penciled his company name on the bottom of the barrel beneath the stock in very small characters.
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-09-2017, 1:06 PM
capt14k capt14k is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,301
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latigo View Post
Very nice rifles, Cap............. and yes, Cap is right.

I've brought in a lot of Swiss rifles in the past 20 years, and you have to weigh import costs against rifle values. We had a great importer here in Montana for a long time, but he eventually retired. My exporter across the pond was always more than fair with me and, the big deal with my

importer was that he electro-penciled his company name on the bottom of the barrel beneath the stock in very small characters.


Thank You

I tried using Leroy's first, but they sold the import business to a guy in Washington State and he only will import rifles from Canada. Good for Long Branch and Ross collectors.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Last edited by capt14k; 12-09-2017 at 6:08 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-09-2017, 6:06 PM
peppermintman's Avatar
peppermintman peppermintman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,942
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

That was a nice hijacking of the thread
Good thing M1's weren't issued with a bayonet. Could be interesting reading.
Anyone get one of those Bull Moose K31's that just got imported?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-10-2017, 1:49 AM
Latigo's Avatar
Latigo Latigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lost Prairie Montana
Posts: 2,119
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

Bull Moose k31's?? Another loop I'm out of?
__________________
Latigo and P
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit...... he set in de bushes..... he watch an' he wait... lay low an' he don' say nuffin'.

www.swissproductsusa.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 6:06 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2021, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.



Seams2SewBySusy