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  #1  
Old 05-06-2017, 4:10 AM
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Default Saiga 12 ? What are my options??

Hello hello.
What are the options to legally keep, own, and operate a Saiga 12 in the great state of CA?
Can it be modified to make compliant ?
What is compliance for a magazine fed semi auto shotgun ?
Thanks in advance!
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2017, 5:01 AM
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http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf
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Old 05-08-2017, 8:26 PM
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Thanks but was hoping someone could explain one's options with a Saiga 12 . That flow chart is not clear to me ...
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Old 05-09-2017, 6:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckshot51 View Post
Thanks but was hoping someone could explain one's options with a Saiga 12 . That flow chart is not clear to me ...
What's not clear? You need to be more specific.
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Old 05-09-2017, 7:00 AM
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My understanding is that if it has a bullet button, no collapsible or telescopic stock, no drum magazine of course under the flowchart is doesn't qualify as an "assault weapon"

§ 12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding PC section 12276, assault weapon shall also mean the following:

(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:

(A) A folding or telescoping stock.

(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.

(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
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Old 05-10-2017, 7:07 PM
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Don't assault anyone with it and it won't be an "assault weapon".
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Old 05-13-2017, 7:28 AM
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I have a VEPR-12. We have to register or get rid of the firearm before the deadline. There is no way (I should say currently no way) to convert AK style shotguns. There is no version of the Cross Armory Safe Mag, Patriot Mag Release, AR Maglock, etc. for the AK to fit in with the redefinition of what constitutes a magazine to be detachable. AK rifles can have a kydex grip wrap to be made featureless, but no such luck with AK shotguns because of the way the law is written.

On the flowchart, #13 and #14 can be interchanged in their order. You can have as many features from each number but not one from each number (you can have a folding and telescoping stock, but not a pistol grip, vertical forward grip, thumb-hole stock OR you can have a pistol grip, vertical forward grip, thumbhole stock but not a folding or telescoping stock).
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Old 05-16-2017, 6:42 AM
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Shotguns don't apply to a Rifle/pistol bill that was passed. Just so you know
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Old 05-16-2017, 7:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SCjonny831 View Post
Shotguns don't apply to a Rifle/pistol bill that was passed. Just so you know
But they were mentioned in the DoJ's enabling regulations that were later withdrawn.

So it's a bit up in the air right now.
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Old 05-19-2017, 1:41 AM
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The original s12 looks like it can be made to be straight pull only fairly easily but it would not be as good as a black aces or 870. Still a little better than a break open though.
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Old 05-19-2017, 5:14 PM
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Presuming fixed stock and mag lock, what is the actual PC that defines semi auto shotguns with the ability to accept detachable mag as a statatory AW?
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Old 05-19-2017, 5:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
But they were mentioned in the DoJ's enabling regulations that were later withdrawn.

So it's a bit up in the air right now.
And if I read the most recent draft regs correctly, the DOJ is taking the position there were included in the bill and would need to be registered.
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Old 05-19-2017, 6:52 PM
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Yep per the newest draft they will be lumped into the new aw regs
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Old 05-20-2017, 9:24 AM
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Regulations not specifically authorized by statutes are unlawful and invalid.

It criminalizes behavior not specified by law.
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Old 05-20-2017, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bootstrap View Post
Regulations not specifically authorized by statutes are unlawful and invalid.

It criminalizes behavior not specified by law.
Regulations pertaining to the changes in the assault weapons laws is authorized by CA laws. [PC 30900(b)(5)]

Therefore, until the Courts say otherwise, CA DOJ has the authority to do this.



Penal Code 30900
(b)(5) The department shall adopt regulations for the purpose of implementing this subdivision. These regulations are exempt from the Administrative Procedure Act (Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code).
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Old 05-20-2017, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorax3 View Post
And if I read the most recent draft regs correctly, the DOJ is taking the position there were included in the bill and would need to be registered.
The counter argument is the Legislature made the change to 'fixed magazine' in 30515(a)(1) and omitted the change from 30515(a)(7). My understanding of the general court view of such things suggests a court would see that omission as deliberate.

I imagine we shall see.
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
The counter argument is the Legislature made the change to 'fixed magazine' in 30515(a)(1) and omitted the change from 30515(a)(7). My understanding of the general court view of such things suggests a court would see that omission as deliberate.

I imagine we shall see.
Yes, it seems to me the grandstanding demagogues behind the latest legislation were narrowly focusing on AR-15 style rifles, and so their resulting law is not as comprehensive as the original Roberti-Roos law which was drafted by flipping through catalogs and selecting firearms of all types that were especially scary looking, or of the later SB-23 features ban (based on the Federal 1994 assault weapon ban).

I doubt the authors of the 2016 assault weapon bill had ever even heard of a Saiga 12, or any other Saiga for that matter, and probably think a shotgun is one of those double-barreled things Elmer Fudd carries around in cartoons.

As Librarian suggests, an independent court would very likely see it that way, and strike the current regulations. But do you have such courts anymore in California?
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Getting called a DOJ shill has become a rite of passage around here. I've certainly been called that more than once - I've even seen Kes get called that. I haven't seen Red-O get called that yet, which is very suspicious to me, and means he's probably a DOJ shill.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Regulations pertaining to the changes in the assault weapons laws is authorized by CA laws. [PC 30900(b)(5)]

Therefore, until the Courts say otherwise, CA DOJ has the authority to do this.


Penal Code 30900
(b)(5) The department shall adopt regulations for the purpose of implementing this subdivision. These regulations are exempt from the Administrative Procedure Act (Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code).
With this framework, the DOJ can make up any regulation they wish.

What PC defines a semi auto shotgun with ability to accept a detachable mag (and has mag lock), fixed stock and no forward vertical grip as a statutory AW?
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Old 05-23-2017, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootstrap View Post
With this framework, the DOJ can make up any regulation they wish.

What PC defines a semi auto shotgun with ability to accept a detachable mag (and has mag lock), fixed stock and no forward vertical grip as a statutory AW?
Yep.

PC 30515(a)(7)]


Penal Code 30515
(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
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  #20  
Old 06-07-2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
Yep.

PC 30515(a)(7)]


Penal Code 30515
(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, “assault weapon” also means any of the following:
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
What does " (6) a semi automatic shotgun that has BOTH of the following" mean? Does it mean two of the things listed below or any of the things listed below?
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Old 06-07-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by boamedt View Post
What does " (6) a semi automatic shotgun that has BOTH of the following" mean? Does it mean two of the things listed below or any of the things listed below?
It means 6(A) and 6(B) only. 7 and 8 remain separate. So, if you have for example, a pistol grip semi-automatic shotgun that does not have a folding or telescoping stock, you do not have an AW based on (6). But, if that shotgun has both a pistol grip AND a telescoping stock, you DO have an AW based on (6). You can still have an AW based on 7 or 8, even if 6 does not apply.
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Last edited by six seven tango; 06-07-2017 at 11:52 AM..
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  #22  
Old 06-14-2017, 9:04 AM
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Saw following Saiga 12 thread as well:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1331175
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