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  #1  
Old 05-19-2017, 7:20 AM
Nardo1895 Nardo1895 is offline
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Default Dealers Policy on Undetermined

Edgerly779's post on "Undetermined" reminded me of a question I've been wanting to ask. Didn't want to hijack his post so I started this one.

At my first DOJ inspection the field rep said I needed to develop a policy on what I will do when a DROS comes back Undetermined. She said I had discretion on what to do, but I needed to develop a policy and then stick to it. She suggested that just releasing to customers I know, but not releasing to those I don't, isn't a good policy. I think her inference was I need to be able to defend my actions if I release to an Undetermined who later commits a crime, and that I could fact legal issues from customers if I'm not consistent.

I searched this forum and there are a number of posts about what a FFL CAN do, what they SHOULD do, etc. But I didn't find much discussion on how you determine if you will or will not release (assuming you are a dealer that will release). There was some discussion about the customer smelling of pot or alcohol, and googling the customer name, but not much else. Anyone care to share with me how they determine if they will or will not release to a specific Undetermined customer? Also, do any of you have a policy on that?

I'm not meaning to restart the discussion on whether a FFL should release. I wholeheartedly agree with most of the posts that if DOJ can't figure it out in 30 days it should not be up to the FFL to deny someone their 2nd amendment rights. That is a great philosophical argument but tends to ignore the potential liability and legal costs a FFL might encounter should things go wrong...
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  #2  
Old 05-19-2017, 7:51 AM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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FWIW, it's been pointed out to me that the DOJ language of "the dealer may deliver" is the same language for a person who is approved.

It's still left up to the dealer one way or another using DOJs own language.
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Old 05-19-2017, 7:54 AM
taperxz taperxz is offline
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I also believe, an approved person who commits a crime can land an FFL in court just as easily as an undetermined can.
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  #4  
Old 05-19-2017, 12:21 PM
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Condorguns Condorguns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nardo1895 View Post
Edgerly779's post on "Undetermined" reminded me of a question I've been wanting to ask. Didn't want to hijack his post so I started this one.

At my first DOJ inspection the field rep said I needed to develop a policy on what I will do when a DROS comes back Undetermined. She said I had discretion on what to do, but I needed to develop a policy and then stick to it. She suggested that just releasing to customers I know, but not releasing to those I don't, isn't a good policy. I think her inference was I need to be able to defend my actions if I release to an Undetermined who later commits a crime, and that I could fact legal issues from customers if I'm not consistent.

I searched this forum and there are a number of posts about what a FFL CAN do, what they SHOULD do, etc. But I didn't find much discussion on how you determine if you will or will not release (assuming you are a dealer that will release). There was some discussion about the customer smelling of pot or alcohol, and googling the customer name, but not much else. Anyone care to share with me how they determine if they will or will not release to a specific Undetermined customer? Also, do any of you have a policy on that?

...
We have a flat will release policy. I could see problems with the policy of releasing to some people but not to others so we knew we needed to decide either we release or we don't.

The state won't provide us with the tools to try and determine if the buyer is prohibited or not and I'm not spending my time or man power trying to play private detective . We are paying them with every DROS to provide this service. Once I get the NICS number then I am OK.
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  #5  
Old 05-19-2017, 12:28 PM
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kemasa kemasa is offline
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One aspect to consider is whether you are willing to ever deny a transfer to anyone. If so, then you are selective right there.
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Old 05-19-2017, 3:48 PM
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Its our firm policy here that we do not transfer firearms to customers when they try and skirt the law. We've had to tell a few people that we are no longer willing to be their FFL for whatever reason. We draw the line when they ask us to do stuff that is unlawful. We've had one where we had to call ATF and inform them about what was going on, basically we found out the customer was trying to run a small firearms business and trying to have us be the FFL who did the transfers. Others have been smaller issues with trying to skirt DOJ regs. I don't care how small or big it is when you ask me to break a law you're no longer welcome to be a customer.

In the case of the undetermined I think its total BS that the DOJ cant decide on the eligibility of somebody. If the DOJ cant tell me somebody is denied then I don't see any reason why I can't deliver a firearm to them.
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  #7  
Old 05-19-2017, 6:16 PM
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kemasa kemasa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acespawnshop View Post
I
In the case of the undetermined I think its total BS that the DOJ cant decide on the eligibility of somebody. If the DOJ cant tell me somebody is denied then I don't see any reason why I can't deliver a firearm to them.
Quite true, but with some people if you do a search of their name then you can find good reason why you would not want to do business with them.
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  #8  
Old 05-19-2017, 6:55 PM
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We deliver on undetermined. this way everyone is treated the same.
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  #9  
Old 05-19-2017, 7:13 PM
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You need a policy so you can't be accused of discrimination later. If it is perceived by someone that you only release to white people and not black, or christian and not muslim, or straights and not gays, you can see where the problem of not having a policy and sticking to it will lead you.

So make a policy, and stick to it, so you don't end up in civil court. That was probably the inference.
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Last edited by SkyHawk; 05-19-2017 at 7:16 PM..
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  #10  
Old 05-23-2017, 2:10 PM
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I deliver to everyone unless they tell me they are going to commit a crime. If the DOJ can't figure it out, it isn't my job to figure it out and I assume no liability for them. That is on the state. I deliver.
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