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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 07-26-2010, 8:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
California 12071 licensees don't have an exemption for selling large capacity magazines without a permit under California law. You have to read the sentence quoted above very closely. What you'll see is that when you deconstruct it, you end up with at least one nonsensical construction. I'm feeling lazy or I'd find the thread where 10Percent, Fabio, and I fully parsed it through.

Armored vehicle companies certainly have an exemption, but there is a much cleaner and better way that will be revealed... in two weeks!
Intriguing! I wasn't aware of potential holes in the ban other than 12071 licensees (who I guess don't have an apparent exemption, after all?) and armored vehicle companies (which haven't been motivated to corner the CA market on magazine sales, it would seem). I wonder what it is that I've missed?
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  #42  
Old 07-26-2010, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
California 12071 licensees don't have an exemption for selling large capacity magazines without a permit under California law. You have to read the sentence quoted above very closely. What you'll see is that when you deconstruct it, you end up with at least one nonsensical construction. I'm feeling lazy or I'd find the thread where 10Percent, Fabio, and I fully parsed it through.

Armored vehicle companies certainly have an exemption, but there is a much cleaner and better way that will be revealed... in two weeks!

-Gene
Gene, when you get a chance, could you see if you could find that thread?

I'd argue that "to or by" means the same thing in #21 and #27.

Quote:
(21) The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.

(27) The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine, to or by entities that operate armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws of this state.

The large-capacity magazine permit just extends "importation rights" to the permittee.
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(26) The importation into this state of, or sale of, any large-capacity magazine by a person who has been issued a permit to engage in those activities pursuant to Section 12079, when those activities are in accordance with the terms and conditions of that permit.
What are the terms and conditions of the large-cap permit? Does it limit sales only to other permitees, or LEOs?


I could see (21) allowing a dealer to sell inventory, but not import it. He'd have to buy magazines that were already in-state.
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  #43  
Old 07-26-2010, 10:16 PM
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I recall seeing that thread a while back but I'm not sure how to find it now. I'm not sure I'm convinced by that reasoning though; if the law has nonsensical construction, how does it even pass rational basis?

I suspect that construction to be:

Quote:
The sale or purchase of any large-capacity magazine to or by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
That's definitely a grammar foilble. But interpreting the exemption as only encompassing "sale to" and "purchase by" violates normal English as well. It doesn't seem quite right to uphold an internally inconsistent law that impacts a fundamental right, never mind upholding it and applying it in the most restrictive manner possible. If that's what was intended, it should read "sale of any LCM to a person licensed... or purchase of any LCM by a person licensed...".

Frankly, this law needs to die. If Californians have to keep jumping through more and more hoops to remain legal (c.f. the AW flowchart), people are going to unintentionally violate those laws en mass. This may be legal (though after MacDonald I'm not so sure) but it is most certainly not just. Are there not multiple federal challenges available, based on commerce or equal protection? I do recall hoffmang once posting that it was illegal when it was passed; I figured that must refer to interstate commerce protectionism, but I could well be wrong.
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  #44  
Old 07-27-2010, 10:57 AM
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in two weeks! -Gene
in two weeks I'll be expecting a law that bundles suppressor legality with the school lunch budget for poor kids in LA County
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  #45  
Old 07-27-2010, 11:26 AM
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in two weeks I'll be expecting a law that bundles suppressor legality with the school lunch budget for poor kids in LA County
CGF doesn't make laws - it only destroys them.

-Gene
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  #46  
Old 07-27-2010, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
... in two weeks!
-Gene



Just so everyone understands, if you buy a Hi-cap today, and the seller gets busted, then rolls over on you as a buyer, the magazine will be taken away.

It is ill gotten. It would be the same as unknowly buying stolen property on e-bay. If you wanted to play the, "I lost it " You best have a lawyer on speed dial.
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  #47  
Old 07-27-2010, 12:03 PM
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CGF doesn't make laws - it only destroys them.

-Gene
D@*#, too many good "Sig" line quotes!!!!
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  #48  
Old 07-27-2010, 4:13 PM
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I bought quite a few "off list" guns and some mags before I retired. As usual now I look back and think "dang....I forgot about the (fill in blank)."
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  #49  
Old 07-27-2010, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Flouncer View Post
Is it possible or realistic for LEO to be able to discern when a magazine was manufactured ? And then enforce the California law ......

Say a relative in Oregon or Nevada buys a 15 rd mag, and gives it to me and I return to California with it.

or,

I drive over the State line to Cabellas in Verdi, Nv and buy the 15 rd mag.

Somehow, an LEO notices the mag is 15, not 10. My weapon is a legal on the list hadgun with the 10rd mag. Maybe he hears 13 go off at the range, not ten, and asks to see the weapon.

As the owner of the registered weapon and in possession of the 15 rd mag, would I be in trouble ?

Thanks
Would depends was that gun available for sale BEFORE the ban took place. If so and you could show you owned the gun before maybe not. If you can't then you could be in trouble.
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  #50  
Old 07-27-2010, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by KylaGWolf View Post
Would depends was that gun available for sale BEFORE the ban took place. If so and you could show you owned the gun before maybe not. If you can't then you could be in trouble.
If the magazine was produced prior to the ban, that's all that would matter.

A lot of people bought a buttload of mags for guns they didn't own before the ban went into effect.
This wasn't a "Gee, I woke up Jan-1 and the gun shop wouldn't sell me any mags that held more than 10 rounds"... there was at least 6 months of warning.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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  #51  
Old 07-27-2010, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
If the magazine was produced prior to the ban, that's all that would matter.

A lot of people bought a buttload of mags for guns they didn't own before the ban went into effect.
This wasn't a "Gee, I woke up Jan-1 and the gun shop wouldn't sell me any mags that held more than 10 rounds"... there was at least 6 months of warning.
The state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you imported or manufactured those magazines in the last 36 months. If you were to stipulate that you imported them 37 months ago, the state could not prosecute.

-Gene
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  #52  
Old 07-28-2010, 9:00 AM
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if i put 30 empty cases under my pillow and the magazine fairy leaves me a new 30, can i legally keep it.
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  #53  
Old 07-28-2010, 10:56 AM
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On buying hi-cap mags, I thought that fell within the definition of conspiracy which carries the same offense as the crime.
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  #54  
Old 07-28-2010, 5:47 PM
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The state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you imported or manufactured those magazines in the last 36 months. If you were to stipulate that you imported them 37 months ago, the state could not prosecute.
Ya... but it's a catch-22 in that it does require you to open your mouth (and pray that the judge rules that the SOL begins at the time of the crime, not the time of discovery of the crime).
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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  #55  
Old 07-28-2010, 5:52 PM
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On buying hi-cap mags, I thought that fell within the definition of conspiracy which carries the same offense as the crime.
Potentially.

The fact of the matter is:

1 - There is (apparently) no case law. All high-cap cases that anyone has been able to find have involved importation.
2 - The violation is a wobbler. ANY charge is unlikely without other charges, and a felony charge is unlikely if it is only a half dozen or so for personal use. Importation/manufacture with intent to sell by an unlicensed person? Ya... that's probably going to get the book
3 - Conspiracy/accessory charges are EXTREMELY unlikely in the case of misdemeanor charges.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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  #56  
Old 07-28-2010, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Ya... but it's a catch-22 in that it does require you to open your mouth (and pray that the judge rules that the SOL begins at the time of the crime, not the time of discovery of the crime).
I think a smart lawyer would get a ruling on SOL before he had his client admit anything. And he would probably argue that they would need to prove that he had committed the crime during the SOL, and not that he had commited a crime sometime since 2000.
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  #57  
Old 07-28-2010, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
I'm saying NOTHING about BUYING. My point specifically is this: It appears that it is entirely legal for a non-LEO CA resident to receive AS A GIFT (no money, trade or obligation involved) from one of the parties who are EXEMPT (law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers) from PC Section 12020 (b)(19-29).

I think that any disagreement we may have regarding the intent of this law comes from the really crappy writing used in the law. If my reading is correct, you are also correct in that a dealer can legally sell a non-exempted person a hi-cap mag. I, however, cannot sell another non-exempted person a hi-cap magazine.
You guys are all forgetting the biggest loop hole in the law. My understanding is that there is nothing codifying disposal of a h-cap, and there's nothing wrong with finding a hi-cap. SO if an LEO you know just so happens to throw a hi-cap in the garbage, and you just so happen to find it, there's nothing illegal. Not that I'm saying anyone should do this. You'd still have to worry about someone not believing your story about how you just so happened to find those 15 hi-caps all neatly wrapped up in a package and a bow, with a birthday card on your birthday.
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  #58  
Old 07-28-2010, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BananaTyrant View Post
You guys are all forgetting the biggest loop hole in the law. My understanding is that there is nothing codifying disposal of a h-cap, and there's nothing wrong with finding a hi-cap. SO if an LEO you know just so happens to throw a hi-cap in the garbage, and you just so happen to find it, there's nothing illegal. Not that I'm saying anyone should do this. You'd still have to worry about someone not believing your story about how you just so happened to find those 15 hi-caps all neatly wrapped up in a package and a bow, with a birthday card on your birthday.
Been all over this one and it is not a legitimate loophole.
Whether the state can prove it or not, it is still an illegal transfer.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people, the RKBA is our insurance against their success.
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  #59  
Old 07-28-2010, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Been all over this one and it is not a legitimate loophole.
Whether the state can prove it or not, it is still an illegal transfer.
So, the .gov thinks Oscar The Grouch really does live in a trash can and give out standard capacity mags...
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  #60  
Old 07-29-2010, 10:16 AM
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Nope, the law doesn't say you can't buy them. So, if Ron Solo or one of the other good cops here on the board wanted to start up a mail order hi-cap magazine business they would be permitted to legally do so. I don't think they would be cops for very long but.....

Maybe an officer at a small city department could work out a deal with his city to open a business and any money he makes from the magazine selling business is deducted from his salary.
Does the law allow LEOs to SELL them? I thought that it just allowed LEOs to purchase them legally.

If they bought them then GIFTED them to you as a friend/family member they probably wouldn't be in trouble. Selling them would probably end up on termination and potential charges.
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  #61  
Old 07-29-2010, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by hoffmang View Post
CGF doesn't make laws - it only destroys them.

-Gene
This is my vote for post of the decade. I know that it's early, but I don't forsee anything better-except perhaps something about a complete reversal of the AWB.
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  #62  
Old 07-29-2010, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BananaTyrant View Post
You guys are all forgetting the biggest loop hole in the law. My understanding is that there is nothing codifying disposal of a h-cap, and there's nothing wrong with finding a hi-cap. SO if an LEO you know just so happens to throw a hi-cap in the garbage, and you just so happen to find it, there's nothing illegal. Not that I'm saying anyone should do this. You'd still have to worry about someone not believing your story about how you just so happened to find those 15 hi-caps all neatly wrapped up in a package and a bow, with a birthday card on your birthday.
I actually found THREE high capicity mags thrown in a trash can at the range, which has just been broken/mangled by being run over with a truck ... witnessed the ensuing argument between friends in the parking lot, lol. Sadly, the were for a handgun I do not own and have no intention of purchasing. Otherwise it would have been: "Hmmm, found them, rebuilt them, SCORE!"
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