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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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Old 03-27-2009, 8:46 AM
Untamed1972 Untamed1972 is offline
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Default "Oakland LEOs were mad" - We all should be

I was thinking last night about a comment someone posted yesterday in one of the Oakland threads about how when the officers came into the hospital they appearred to be mad, and cussing and so on. Well here is my statement on that:

THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE MAD!!!! Some dirtbag felon/parole just killed 4 of their friends and colleagues that day. Who wouldn't be mad? I'm not saying that have a right to act/retaliate in anger, but their position as LEOs does not preclude them from being human. But I would like to take this a little further.

WE SHOULD ALL BE MAD!!!! Why? We as law-abiding citizens should be angry beyond belief that our city/county/state/country has been allowed to deteriorate to this point. But I had to honestly ask myself a question last night: "Who is to blame for allowing this deterioration?"

I think we as law-abiding citizens share some of the blame. We have turned our eyes away, hidden in our houses, and allowed criminal elements to infiltrate every aspect of life in our country, and then hoped "someone else", "them", "the government" would do something about it. Why are these criminals able to move about and engage in their criminal activities nearly unopposed? How are they able to take control of whole neighborhoods? BECAUSE WE LET THEM!!! We let them out of fear, fear of endangering ourselves, fear or reprisal/retaliation, and just plain unsubstantiated fear. And believe me....I'm not excluding myself from that group who has allowed myself to be controlled by fear.

If you think about it....what really is the only thing a criminal fears? Other criminals! Why? Because they know that other criminals are the only ones who will stand up to them and fight whether offensively or defensively without regard for the law. Right now the only "natural predator" for a criminal is other criminals.

We all sit around and talk about our guns and our rights and wanting CCW to protect ourselves and blah blah blah. But what is REALLY needed to turn the tables on crime and criminals? THEY NEED TO FEAR THE LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE!!! They need to be made to realize that there is nothing more fearsome and terrifying then a law-abiding citizen fighting in defense of his home, and "home" should include his neighborhood, his city and so on.

So as you can tell....I am PISSED!!! And most of all I'm pissed at myself for hiding out in my house for years while things just continue to decay. So this is what I come here to ask:

WHAT CAN WE, AS LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS, DO IN THE FORM OF PROACTIVE STEPS NOW TO TURN THE TIDE ON THE DIRTBAGS?

At what point do we realize that if we want to believe that quote about "Police being citizens and citizens being the police" then we actually hafta do it, act it, live it and help the LEOs out so that the lesson for the criminals out of this latest round of violence is: "LISTEN UP DIRTBAGS! TODAY IS THE LAST TIME WE AS LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS WILL ALLOW YOU TO SEND ANOTHER LEO OR ANYONE ELSE HOME TO THEIR FAMILIES IN A BODYBAG. THE COPS ARE THE LEAST OF YOUR WORRIES NOW!".

The COPs can't do it on their own. I know they don't like to admit it, but it's not said to deminish theirs skills and efforts. It is simply an acknowledgement of the impossibility of the task we have placed upon them and they have taken on themselves. I applaud them for the efforts but I cannot bear to see another report of a LEO or anyone else being wiped from this earth by a dirtbag that has no regard for anyone but himself!

I would like to hear some real suggestions, the time for action is now! Because the reality is that if we wait till direct action is the only option left it will be too late.

To quote Edmund Burke: "The ONLY thing nessecary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

So again I ask "WHAT ARE WE, MY GOOD MEN & WOMEN, GOING TO DO?"
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Old 03-27-2009, 8:54 AM
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I agree with you completely! I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.

The police need to help us get there, though. They need to put pressure on the politicians at the top of their command structure to back off gun control, and to back things like CCW. The average cops on the street could make a huge difference if they all exerted pressure.
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Old 03-27-2009, 8:58 AM
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It would be more surprising if they weren't mad.
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Old 03-27-2009, 8:59 AM
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The police need to help us get there, though. They need to put pressure on the politicians at the top of their command structure to back off gun control, and to back things like CCW. The average cops on the street could make a huge difference if they all exerted pressure.
My guess is the "average" cop in the street cares far more about his regular paycheck than about gun control.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:00 AM
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I agree with you completely! I dream about the day that the average would-be rapist is afraid to approach a woman who's walking alone at night. I dream of the day when two punks talk each other out of sticking up a liquor store because it's too damn risky.

The police need to help us get there, though. They need to put pressure on the politicians at the top of their command structure to back off gun control, and to back things like CCW. The average cops on the street could make a huge difference if they all exerted pressure.
I think the time for dreaming of those days and waiting for someone else to force that changes is over. That's my point.....what actions can be taken starting TODAY to MAKE those dreams a reality?
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:02 AM
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What are we going to do? We're going to continue suffering from the idiocy of the liberal politicians who have this state by the gonads. There sure as hell is NOT going to be an armed uprising to right the wrongs that've been pressed down upon our collective brow like a crown of thorns. Don't be a fool by getting your hopes up that any sweeping change is in the works because that just is NOT going to happen. Nordyke MAY give us a measure of relief and maybe not, only time will tell. I'm guessing I'll be long dead and buried before there is any appreciable improvement in the whole situation known as the State of California.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:17 AM
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Come on guys.....I'm asking for help to try and look at the bigger picture. Yes...I agree that getting gun restrictions changed and CCW and all that stuff is important. But it's not the miracle cure. I know this is a gun website....but expand your focus if you can.

The fact is that crime has always been a part of any society all the way back to Cain killing Able. It's like a cancer, if you don't take regular steps to erradicate it when it pops up it spreads like wild fire. We post on here day after day about how the government/LEOs can't protect us and laws do nothing to stop crime. Yet when I ask "What can we do" I get answers back needing the government/LEOs to get the laws changed.

And I know it's a hard thing for law-abiding citizens to do because whether we like to admit it or not, we fear the law more than we fear criminals. That's why laws work on law-abiding citizens and not criminals. Now I am not advocating forming armed vigilante posses or anything like that.....at least not yet. LOL If we sit back and wait now, the time will come when armed posses will be the only answer.

But there hasta be something MORE we can all do! Give me some ideas.

How's this for starters: Demand a town hall meeting with your local police chief / sheriff to discuss more realistic options on what citizens can do, or perhaps INFORM them what their citizens intend to do and to help them understand they these citizens are not the enemy and need not be feared, but rather supported in their efforts.

THINK PEOPLE!!! THINK!!!
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:32 AM
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Interesting ideas, but I challenge you to look at this from a different perspective, the one I think prevails in CA. Kid may back me up on this. The govt - doesn't want our help - they want us to be docile little sheep that go to work and pay taxes, that's it. They don't want us armed, thinking too much or responsible for ourselves. Heck look at the political reaction to this, more gun control -- come on how do you beat that.

IMO CA is a lost cause and the only hope is a Federal Judge ramming home to CLEOs and the legislature that the people have a right to defend themselves.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:54 AM
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Interesting ideas, but I challenge you to look at this from a different perspective, the one I think prevails in CA. Kid may back me up on this. The govt - doesn't want our help - they want us to be docile little sheep that go to work and pay taxes, that's it. They don't want us armed, thinking too much or responsible for ourselves. Heck look at the political reaction to this, more gun control -- come on how do you beat that.

IMO CA is a lost cause and the only hope is a Federal Judge ramming home to CLEOs and the legislature that the people have a right to defend themselves.

I agree with you......right now the general stance of gov't is "we dont want your help", "You need us to think for you" and so on. But if they meet no resistance to such ideologies and policies that follow from it, then they've already have they not?

What I'm talking about is not accepting that answer anymore. Not sitting back and asking "What is the gov't going to do for us." But instead TELLING them what we ARE going to do for them. Pretty much something like "We've given you X number of years, and this is what we've gotten and we're not happy with it. So this is what WE are going to do to rectify it. Your support is not required, but would be greatly appreciated."

The reason things have gotten this far is because people didn't resist early enough on to keep it from getting here. There are only 2 solutions I see at this point A) Give up now and throw in the towel and say it's too late, or B) start doing what should have been along time ago.

Not saying option B is easy, digging yourself out of a hole never is. But it is the only way out.....otherwise that hole you're in will soon become your grave. It is such self-willed determination in the heart of individuals that brought people to this continent and made this country great and it will take such determination to keep it from total collapse.
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Old 03-27-2009, 9:58 AM
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The reality is we are going to get the society we deserve.

If it were possible for at least the majority of people to take responsibility for themselves and their security, rather than relying on a bloated and questionably effective police force, then these problems would not exist.

But that's not likely to happen until the police stop getting paychecks, or their job becomes to dangerous for the pay they are getting.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:02 AM
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But that's not likely to happen until the police stop getting paychecks, or their job becomes to dangerous for the pay they are getting.

But that's not gonna happen until the new regime has spent all of your money. Do you want to wait that long?
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:39 AM
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WE SHOULD ALL BE MAD!!!! Why? We as law-abiding citizens should be angry beyond belief that our city/county/state/country has been allowed to deteriorate to this point. But I had to honestly ask myself a question last night: "Who is to blame for allowing this deterioration?"

I think we as law-abiding citizens share some of the blame. We have turned our eyes away, hidden in our houses, and allowed criminal elements to infiltrate every aspect of life in our country, and then hoped "someone else", "them", "the government" would do something about it. Why are these criminals able to move about and engage in their criminal activities nearly unopposed? How are they able to take control of whole neighborhoods? BECAUSE WE LET THEM!!! We let them out of fear, fear of endangering ourselves, fear or reprisal/retaliation, and just plain unsubstantiated fear. And believe me....I'm not excluding myself from that group who has allowed myself to be controlled by fear.

If you think about it....what really is the only thing a criminal fears? Other criminals! Why? Because they know that other criminals are the only ones who will stand up to them and fight whether offensively or defensively without regard for the law. Right now the only "natural predator" for a criminal is other criminals.

The COPs can't do it on their own. I know they don't like to admit it, but it's not said to deminish theirs skills and efforts. It is simply an acknowledgement of the impossibility of the task we have placed upon them and they have taken on themselves. I applaud them for the efforts but I cannot bear to see another report of a LEO or anyone else being wiped from this earth by a dirtbag that has no regard for anyone but himself!

So again I ask "WHAT ARE WE, MY GOOD MEN & WOMEN, GOING TO DO?"
I did a little condensing on your thread, just a little space saving.

Who's to blame? Directly - the folks who run Oakland. Indirectly - the folks who voted for the folks who run Oakland.

When the people who run Oakland are more concerned with controlling the police than allowing them to do their job, or pay great heed to community activists who prefer to rein in the police, they foster an environment which weakens the police and embolden the criminals.

Make no mistake - most of the people who live in Oakland are decent and hardworking. The police make mistakes and must be accountable. But there is a difference between accountability and handicapping them. I think the police CAN do the job if they are allowed.

I believe there were +160 murders in Oakland last year, about 90% involved a parolee as a victim or offender. In Alameda Cty last year there were fewer than 5 Officer involved shootings - where is the community outrage at the friends, brothers, uncles & dads killing & being killed by one another? Where are the community meetings addressing these folks killing one another? Where's the effort to address this by the elected officials?

It's much easier to critique the police as an entity than the challenge of looking inward, at one's own community.

Let the police enforce the law. Watch over them, but show more concern about catching and punishing offenders.

And so far as criminal fearing only other criminals - why is that? Will the other criminal call the cops, call a local news station & rat them out? Nope, of corse not - there's a good chance they'll shoot them and that's why one criminal fears another. So loosen up on the CCW laws (again, elected officials and the people who elect them) and maybe the average person will become involved.

Last edited by dfletcher; 03-27-2009 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:47 AM
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I was thinking the same thing but you laid it out so well.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:51 AM
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But that's not gonna happen until the new regime has spent all of your money. Do you want to wait that long?
External debt alone is already greater than GDP, the money is gone, right now anything they are spending is imaginary.

Personally, I think things are going to get a hell of a lot worse, 4 officers KIA in one day won't be a big number at all.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:54 AM
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http://www.topix.net/forum/source/da...R2C4C#lastPost

read about it here

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Old 03-27-2009, 11:10 AM
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The reality is we are going to get the society we deserve.
Well said.

Americans are now indoctrinated from birth to shirk responsibility, trust the government as provider and do whatever "feels good" and is best for them in the moment (damn the long-term and unintended consequences).

The truth is, Kid, it's not the liberal politicians who have this state and country by the gonads- our society evolved into one which volunteered them into the jaws of the vise, only to look to the same government with the hand on the screw for help and encouragement.
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Old 03-27-2009, 11:42 AM
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I think it's pretty simple to fight the bad guys - you take your community back, block by block, and it has nothing to do with guns.

If your community doesn't already do it, work with your PD to establish community policing so you have beat cops who stick with and become experts on your area.

Establish a neighborhood watch on every block. Beyond the obvious crime fighting aspect, it does wonders to get neighbors talking to each other and learning each other's names, likes/dislikes. If you have neighborhood councils or associations, attend the monthly meetings and get involved. Once you have a cohesive group of neighbors with a common goal of peace and community the criminals residing nearby won't last long.

There are of course larger problems that neighbors or even the municipality can't control, such as school closures, unemployment, blight, etc. But I think you can keep the symptoms of those issues at bay with a well organized group of citizens.

I'll also add that being an active gun-owner in the community, and quietly letting them learn about your position on RKBA, can indirectly further the restoration of gun rights. You'll be the good example they think of when some lefty starts trashing gun owners.

Someone's probably going to call this naive and idealistic, but it's working where I live.

Last edited by Swiss; 03-27-2009 at 11:43 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 03-27-2009, 11:49 AM
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Okay untamed listen up because I'm going to give you the straight scoop on the contradictions of law currently on the books in California and other associated factors.

1. The fact of the matter is this, we as citizens are told that on the one hand we can defend ourselves in our homes, however, if we do and the dirtbag lives, we can be sued. If a person is financially unable to support themselves in a civil suit, they are effectively screwed.

2. We are told that we can defend ourselves in public against an attack, however we are restricted by laws like 12020, 12025 and 12031 from carrying an effective weapon for self defense.

3. If a citizen chooses to ignore the law, and is caught with said effective weapon, said person is vilified and labeled a criminal for daring to go against the states edicts.

4. Anyone who even talks about carrying an effective weapon is labeled a vigilante and shamed into compliance with the other sheeple.

5. Most police in California will even discourage the carrying of legal effective weapons for self defense and encourage the citizenry to call 9-1-1 for help. Meanwhile we still have ignorant laws on the books like PC 150 that make it a misdemeanor to not come to a cops aid if he or she is getting their @$$ kicked.

6. Lets not forget that while we are disarmed and have to rely on the police for protection, the courts have ruled that police are not obligated to protect us personally. So, it becomes a crap shoot in that if you choose to actually stand against criminal behavior, you are effectively on your own unless others around you choose to stand shoulder to shoulder with you or you're lucky enough to have a cop around when you actually need one.

7. Then there is the police attitude. If you should decide to stand against criminal behavior, most cops will make stupid assessments that you are "trying to play police". If you do call 9-1-1 and report criminal behavior, if you're lucky, a unit will drive through the area 30 minutes after the dirtbags are gone. That is unless you mention maybe seeing one of them with a gun (hint hint).

The bottom line is this, liberals have become the overwhelming majority in this state and have elected the feel good socialists that have brought us to this point. So, while I stand with you and agree with your frustration, liberals will have to decide what they want California to look like. As for me, I'm considering the alternatives to California like Texas, South Carolina, and Florida.

Last edited by Piper; 03-27-2009 at 11:59 AM..
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:13 PM
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External debt alone is already greater than GDP, the money is gone, right now anything they are spending is imaginary.

Personally, I think things are going to get a hell of a lot worse, 4 officers KIA in one day won't be a big number at all.

Yes....but they haven't gotten to the point of imposing a 90% tax on your income yet. It could get that bad.....do you want to wait that long? Or would you rather start fighting the fight now before what you DO have is gone?
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:30 PM
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I just want to respond in general to Piper and some others.

Go back and read your posts some of you.....you are all confirming what I said earlier. We are more afraid of the law then we are the criminals and that's why the criminals win......and they will continue to win as long as that attitude is maintained. I'm not talking about asking the criminals or the gov't for our safety back.....I'm talking about TAKING it back!

I find hypocrital the LEA mentality of "don't get involved call us if you need help", yet then when you do call and they don't come in time and they get sued, they opt for the "well we are not obligated to protect you".

I'm not baggin' on individual COPs, they do a tough job with not enough resources. I am speaking more to the LE community as a whole. This whole "let us handle it" line when we all know, them included, that they can't is just what is called "turf protection and political posturing". If they suddenly let citizens get involved it would be hard to justify contiued requests for more money to pay salaries not to mention for a sheriff to get re-elected or a police chief to keep the city council from dumping him for admitting his dept. can't do the job.

But we all need to get past that crap. Real change comes about thru the 3 A's. Awareness, Acceptance, Action. We are all aware of the problem, but we struggle with the acceptance thing. Accepting it doesn't mean we like it, it just means we accept the reality of the situation as it is, so that it can be used as a starting point for taking the corrective actions that are needed.

Until the criminals truly fear the law-abiding citizen, or at bear minimum have to give a second thought to who they pick on rather just seeing everyone as easy pickin's, then nothing is going to change. Because come on if you think getting your gun rights back is the answer....remember these guys do not even fear the COPs and they DO have guns, and we have 4 dead LEOs in one day to demonstrate how little fear they have of anyone.

And remember your CCW is only going to be effective in situations where lethal force is justified. Which means you can't do a drive by on the dirtbag dealing on the corner, or stealing that car parked on the street and so on. Would be nice if we could....I think you'd see crime really drop off if we could, but we can't. So what are you/we/me gonna do about those kinds of situations? That's why I'm trying to look at the bigger picture.

Or do I just need to accept that our society is going to collapse, and I need to stock up on supplies so that when it's every man for himself the dirtbags can then find out how terrifying a man defending his home can be?

Is the reality that our society has already collapsed and what remains is just a facade of it's former self and in many ways it's already every man for himself?
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:48 PM
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I agree with a few different posts here.

I think what we need to do, is show the LEOs and Govt, that we are capable of making decisions involving our safety, and the safety of our lives. Make them understand that WE are responsible for ourselves, and we aren't functioning at a "Mob Mentality" level.

Once they understand that part, the criminals will take notice. They will see that the police arent in a hurry to come rescue them from the house they just tried to break into. They will notice that the guy behind the counter at the liquor store is no longer afraid because in his hand is .45 that he has owned and shot for years, making him deadly accurate.

Once WE get the rights WE need to protect OURSELVES from criminals, we will be more scary then the police departments. There are more law abiding citizens then there are LEOs and criminals combined.

It is about education, and balls. We as a whole lack both.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:55 PM
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Once WE get the rights WE need to protect OURSELVES from criminals, we will be more scary then the police departments. There are more law abiding citizens then there are LEOs and criminals combined.

It is about education, and balls. We as a whole lack both.
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Old 03-27-2009, 1:03 PM
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I wanted to add something. Think about why criminals act w/o fear. It's because they do not fear losing anything because they have nothing to lose.

And I know it's hard for law-abiding citizens to face some of these issues because we do fear losing what we have. We fear losing our rights and freedom is we end up in prison, we fear losing our money/property in fighting legal battles and most of all we fear losing our lives or that of a loved one if taking some action brings retaliation. And I say this because I have those fears too.

But in reality aren't we already losing those things little by little by letting the dirtbags win and gov't to continue to make the good people pay for the criminal acts of others?
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Old 03-27-2009, 1:07 PM
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Personally, I think things are going to get a hell of a lot worse, 4 officers KIA in one day won't be a big number at all.
And when the next batch of cops is killed (either on the border with cartels, or from internal issues, or regular bad guy vs. good guy situations like Oakland just had, I think the "hell of a lot worse" scenario to expect is a smack down on existing gun freedom. Security at the cost of rights and it's attendant false sense of safety is how bad it will get.

We all know arming the society (exercising of natural self defense rights of keeping and bearing arms) is the ONLY real solution...not 3x more cops, not anger management, not more or less jobs, not prescription drugs..just regular old conceal carry AND the gun culture behind it letting everyone know that it is a risky coin toss when considering to attack someone that may have a gun. I may be naive as I'm in a small town of about 10k people in a spread out county of only 40k people, but the amount of homicides in this STATE is about 10-15...basically what the city of Antioch had last year. I would simply credit the lack of crime up here (despite rampant meth use) to "small-town-itis" but I have to believe it's because of that coin toss analogy...'you may get a victim who'll unload his glock 26 into you.' I've seen the sexual predator and violent offender lists up here and there's as many x-felons here as in Antioch so it's not easy to simply say it's naturally a safe place...per capita anyway.
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Old 03-27-2009, 2:25 PM
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1. The fact of the matter is this, we as citizens are told that on the one hand we can defend ourselves in our homes, however, if we do and the dirtbag lives, we can be sued. If a person is financially unable to support themselves in a civil suit, they are effectively screwed.
This a long standing issue that needs to be addressed in this country. It happens not only to private citizens but also police depts. which drains tax payer dollars. There needs to be something put in place to make a private person or a public agency immune from civil liability once a self-defense act is deemed justified. The civil suit thing has just been too long abused in this country by the dirtbags and the ambulance chasing attorneys that represent them.

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6. Lets not forget that while we are disarmed and have to rely on the police for protection, the courts have ruled that police are not obligated to protect us personally. So, it becomes a crap shoot in that if you choose to actually stand against criminal behavior, you are effectively on your own unless others around you choose to stand shoulder to shoulder with you or you're lucky enough to have a cop around when you actually need one.
That's my point....there need to be more mutual back up of our fellow citizens. Take the dirtbags demonstrating in the streets for Mixon. There should have 10 times the number of people out there expressing their rage at the criminals who infest that area. But that didn't happen? Why not? The rage against the criminals needs to be taken public! If a good citizen is gettin' run thru the mill by LEAs and DAs for a self defense act there needs to be more public outcry. Where is Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton when an innocent person gets killed by a dirtbag gangbanger?
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Old 03-27-2009, 2:35 PM
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Yes....but they haven't gotten to the point of imposing a 90% tax on your income yet. It could get that bad.....do you want to wait that long? Or would you rather start fighting the fight now before what you DO have is gone?
You are preaching to the choir my friend. Unfortunately until there is mass unrest a single person taking action, probably even just literal defensive action to protect his person, against the state will be vilified and the result will be negative.
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:11 PM
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I agree with a few different posts here.

I think what we need to do, is show the LEOs and Govt, that we are capable of making decisions involving our safety, and the safety of our lives. Make them understand that WE are responsible for ourselves, and we aren't functioning at a "Mob Mentality" level.
Show them?? It's their legal obligation under the Constitution to operate under that whether they like it or not.

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It is about education, and balls. We as a whole lack both.
I can agree with that. But "Please, give us a chance, we'll promise we'll be good" isn't sufficient. We've tried that. It's going to have to be "Look, we have a solution to this. We've tried it the other way, and it doesn't work. You just got a taste of what it's like to be us. Now, how important is maintaining the status quo versus YOUR OWN lives? Apparently when this was us, you didn't care, but now it's you. We've paid the price for doing it your way, now you are. Are you going to keep this up?"
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In Pennsylvania Your permit to carry concealed is called a License to carry fire arms. Other states call it a CCW. In New Jersey it's called a crime.
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:18 PM
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I think the time for dreaming of those days and waiting for someone else to force that changes is over. That's my point.....what actions can be taken starting TODAY to MAKE those dreams a reality?
I guess I didn't make my point clearly enough. That's what happens when you're tired. My point is that now is a good time to reach out to the police. Now is a good time to let them know that gun owners have their backs against a-holes like the one who killed four of them.

On law and order political matters, the police have a lot of pull. They'd make great allies.
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:21 PM
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There exists in this conversation a chasm between the application of imperfect human decision and the purity of the Constitution and this Republic in theory (and as was intended).

Just as case law provides the precedent for deciding the next case, so have our societal decisions provided the context for our current state of being. It is what it is; we haven't given up, but we are aware of where we are today. This is not a negative outlook; to the contrary, it shows that a) we know where we want to go and b) provides us with a reason to take the actions necessary to achieve our goals.

I'll take this opportunity to ask those who would like to take action to PM me with their contact information and location; there are many public events planned for this year and we need all the help we can get.
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:24 PM
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I'll take this opportunity to ask those who would like to take action to PM me with their contact information and location; there are many public events planned for this year and we need all the help we can get.


Just had that handy...
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:26 PM
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On law and order political matters, the police police unions have a lot of pull. They'd make great allies.
Fixed that for you. Oh, and they will NEVER be on our side.
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:31 PM
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Fixed that for you. Oh, and they will NEVER be on our side.
Well, the police unions, by nature of the politicians and policies they support, got these officers killed, for all intents and purposes. So they're not on the cops' side either. Will the cops see that for what it is? I can see that they blatantly don't care about the average citizens, but can they keep getting away with blatantly not caring about the police too?
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:37 PM
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Well, the police unions, by nature of the politicians and policies they support, got these officers killed, for all intents and purposes. So they're not on the cops' side either. Will the cops see that for what it is? I can see that they blatantly don't care about the average citizens, but can they keep getting away with blatantly not caring about the police too?
They can and will. Unions have never really existed to serve their individual members, if you think about it they are unnecessary in that capacity (although they do generally act in that capacity of preserving and enlarging the membership group as a whole as a matter of necessity). Unions are a product of government (a certain form of government at that) and exist to exert political influence on behalf of the people who control them (note that it's NOT really the individuals that they "represent").
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:39 PM
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Fixed that for you. Oh, and they will NEVER be on our side.
The members in the unions vote.

If we could convince the rank and file to actually give a damn, they could make the changes. All we're lacking is the will on the part of the union members.
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Old 03-27-2009, 3:41 PM
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The members in the unions vote.

If we could convince the rank and file to actually give a damn, they could make the changes. All we're lacking is the will on the part of the union members.
Heh, you could same the same thing about the general population, if only we could convince them. LEOs are no less susceptible to the BS pushed at them than the average voting citizen, and no more likely to willfully resist what is now happening to this country barring a cataclysmic change in the system.
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Old 03-27-2009, 4:48 PM
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Okay untamed listen up because I'm going to give you the straight scoop on the contradictions of law currently on the books in California and other associated factors.

1. The fact of the matter is this, we as citizens are told that on the one hand we can defend ourselves in our homes, however, if we do and the dirtbag lives, we can be sued. If a person is financially unable to support themselves in a civil suit, they are effectively screwed.

2. We are told that we can defend ourselves in public against an attack, however we are restricted by laws like 12020, 12025 and 12031 from carrying an effective weapon for self defense.

3. If a citizen chooses to ignore the law, and is caught with said effective weapon, said person is vilified and labeled a criminal for daring to go against the states edicts.

4. Anyone who even talks about carrying an effective weapon is labeled a vigilante and shamed into compliance with the other sheeple.

5. Most police in California will even discourage the carrying of legal effective weapons for self defense and encourage the citizenry to call 9-1-1 for help. Meanwhile we still have ignorant laws on the books like PC 150 that make it a misdemeanor to not come to a cops aid if he or she is getting their @$$ kicked.

6. Lets not forget that while we are disarmed and have to rely on the police for protection, the courts have ruled that police are not obligated to protect us personally. So, it becomes a crap shoot in that if you choose to actually stand against criminal behavior, you are effectively on your own unless others around you choose to stand shoulder to shoulder with you or you're lucky enough to have a cop around when you actually need one.

7. Then there is the police attitude. If you should decide to stand against criminal behavior, most cops will make stupid assessments that you are "trying to play police". If you do call 9-1-1 and report criminal behavior, if you're lucky, a unit will drive through the area 30 minutes after the dirtbags are gone. That is unless you mention maybe seeing one of them with a gun (hint hint).

The bottom line is this, liberals have become the overwhelming majority in this state and have elected the feel good socialists that have brought us to this point. So, while I stand with you and agree with your frustration, liberals will have to decide what they want California to look like. As for me, I'm considering the alternatives to California like Texas, South Carolina, and Florida.
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Old 03-27-2009, 7:47 PM
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Just had that handy...
Timing is everything
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Old 03-27-2009, 7:51 PM
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They can and will. Unions have never really existed to serve their individual members, if you think about it they are unnecessary in that capacity (although they do generally act in that capacity of preserving and enlarging the membership group as a whole as a matter of necessity). Unions are a product of government (a certain form of government at that) and exist to exert political influence on behalf of the people who control them (note that it's NOT really the individuals that they "represent").
Unions are also a business unto themselves- the business of power (controlling the supply of labor), political influence (manipulating the demand for and condition of labor) and the administration of various trusts, all while collecting membership fees in the form of dues (by the members) and fringe benefits and contract administration costs to employers.
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Old 03-27-2009, 7:55 PM
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Fixed that for you. Oh, and they will NEVER be on our side.
Police unions? You're exactly right. The FOP is more anti than most anti political organizations.
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Old 03-27-2009, 8:55 PM
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Heh, you could same the same thing about the general population, if only we could convince them. LEOs are no less susceptible to the BS pushed at them than the average voting citizen, and no more likely to willfully resist what is now happening to this country barring a cataclysmic change in the system.
Well, awesome. I guess we should all just pack it in here, pick up our rifles and take it to the streets.
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