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  #1  
Old 10-04-2016, 10:16 AM
azeemtn azeemtn is offline
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HI Everyone!

I'm fairly new here.
Spent most of my life advocating for more strict gun control. Then one day I decided that nobody is protecting us, and I need to do it myself.
I've taken some gun training courses and some one one one instruction.

Then I got a look at the ridiculously idiotic gun-roster! Okay, so now I totally understand what the heck all you guys have been complaining about for so long.

Anyway, I'm on this side of the debate now.
As an aside, for those who are more into the laws and the debate, may I add that just educating someone by showing them how the gun roster can include and exclude guns based on totally ridiculous reasoning maybe helpful for those who don't truly see the issue with examples.

All I used to hear about is "assault rifles" and large clip magazines.

Anyway, I'm here now, and looking forward to buying my first gun (and I'm sure several more) soon.

I've shot a bunch of Glock's, some S&W's , M&P's and one Kimber Stainless Target II.

I think my first gun is going to be a SA 1911.
Of course, I had my eyes set on the EMP 4 in 9mm, and that is when I started to grasp the ridiculousness of the gun roster!

Anyway, I'll be scouring the used handguns as well as probably getting a Loaded from an FFL. I also want a g43 at some point (of course another 4th gen we can't buy from a dealer!).

Anyway, nice to make all of your acquaintances.



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Old 10-04-2016, 10:23 AM
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Old 10-04-2016, 10:27 AM
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Old 10-04-2016, 10:44 AM
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Old 10-04-2016, 10:53 AM
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Old 10-04-2016, 3:11 PM
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Old 10-04-2016, 4:37 PM
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Old 10-04-2016, 4:49 PM
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Old 10-04-2016, 4:50 PM
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Old 10-04-2016, 4:54 PM
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Spent most of my life advocating for more strict gun control. Then one day I decided that nobody is protecting us, and I need to do it myself.

Then I got a look at the ridiculously idiotic gun-roster! Okay, so now I totally understand what the heck all you guys have been complaining about for so long.

Anyway, I'm on this side of the debate now.
Cool, welcome aboard. You won't mind if we "verify" you then? Report to the basement for further inspection...status, tbd. Please message Lonestargrizzly and his supervisor Red-Osier77 for further instructions.
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Old 10-04-2016, 5:45 PM
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Old 10-04-2016, 5:46 PM
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Old 10-04-2016, 6:42 PM
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Old 10-04-2016, 6:53 PM
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Cool, welcome aboard. You won't mind if we "verify" you then? Report to the basement for further inspection...status, tbd. Please message Lonestargrizzly and his supervisor Red-Osier77 for further instructions.


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Old 10-04-2016, 6:55 PM
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Old 10-04-2016, 9:06 PM
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Old 10-04-2016, 9:19 PM
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Old 10-05-2016, 3:41 AM
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Welcome, don't listen to readysetgo. He was just messing around
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Old 10-05-2016, 4:10 AM
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Kidding or for real?


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Keeding. But lonestarg does like to receive personal messages.
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Welcome, don't listen to readysetgo.
Hey!
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Old 10-05-2016, 5:22 AM
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Kidding or for real?


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FOR REAL.
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Old 10-05-2016, 11:38 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Ready for basement duty?
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Old 10-05-2016, 2:22 PM
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Old 10-05-2016, 4:49 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
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READY.
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Old 10-05-2016, 6:31 PM
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READY.
Ive got the whips and the nose plugs!
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Old 10-05-2016, 6:32 PM
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Old 10-05-2016, 6:49 PM
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Welcome to the right side of the argument. And a 1911 is a great first gun.
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When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

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Old 10-05-2016, 6:54 PM
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Welcome, please tell all your old liberal friends how you feel now, so that they also could share in your epipfany !
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Old 10-05-2016, 11:45 PM
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  #29  
Old 10-07-2016, 8:13 PM
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Welcome, please tell all your old liberal friends how you feel now, so that they also could share in your epipfany !


If I have to speak honestly, I still feel there need to be some rules in place for having a gun. We do this for driver's licenses, pilots, tanker drivers, and even special tests for those driving around more than 26,000 lbs of gross vehicle weight.

These activities have the ability to cause harm to others, and most of us agree some tests or rules should be in place before we let somebody roll down the highway with 60,000 lbs of weight next to our family in a little prius.

I'm not saying make it overly hard, but we all have to agree that the FSC test can be passed by almost any 6th grader who can read.

I don't even know really WHAT should be done. I just think it can't be as simple as the 2nd amendment gives us the unequivocal right no matter what. Extremist positions on both side of the spectrum invariably lead to no progress.

What I have seen is that the gun-roster rules are ridiculous, and I will be talking about this (I already have) with many people.

Like I said earlier, the gun lobby group has not done a good job of education when it comes to WHAT it is that they think is not okay. I think the gun roster is NOT okay, but I didn't know this until I tried to actually get a gun. If I hadn't made that decision, I would not have truly understood what the fuss was all about. It just used to look like to me that people were upset they couldn't get semi-automatic weapons with large cartridges.

It's clearly not that, and I see that now. How the hell can an EMP 9 be okay but not an EMP 4? How can some 1911's make it when others don't and they are almost identical? This is ridiculous.

Even more ridiculous is that I can get those guns legally from any private party! This regulation does nothing to actually stop these guns from getting into California. All they did was make it more expensive for me to get one.

90% of winning any public argument is getting the message out to the public. As a former member of the public (mostly uninformed about gun laws), all I ever heard was 2nd amendment this and don't take away our guns. I never heard WHY these rules are insane, and I think if we made our own criteria, it could help a lot.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with the ARRL, but they worked with the FCC to come up with their own tests and instruction in order to get an amateur radio license from the FCC.

As I've now said a few times, I don't know the answer. What I do know is that the current strategy was one I never bought, and I think a lot of others don't buy it either. So, it would be great to come up with some other strategy to educate the public.

Maybe I am just ignorant and don't know this is already being done. I guess I'll be finding out as I plan on being active here.

Thanks!


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Old 10-07-2016, 8:26 PM
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  #31  
Old 10-08-2016, 8:03 AM
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Originally Posted by azeemtn View Post
If I have to speak honestly, I still feel there need to be some rules in place for having a gun. We do this for driver's licenses, pilots, tanker drivers, and even special tests for those driving around more than 26,000 lbs of gross vehicle weight.

These activities have the ability to cause harm to others, and most of us agree some tests or rules should be in place before we let somebody roll down the highway with 60,000 lbs of weight next to our family in a little prius.

I'm not saying make it overly hard, but we all have to agree that the FSC test can be passed by almost any 6th grader who can read.

I don't even know really WHAT should be done. I just think it can't be as simple as the 2nd amendment gives us the unequivocal right no matter what. Extremist positions on both side of the spectrum invariably lead to no progress.

What I have seen is that the gun-roster rules are ridiculous, and I will be talking about this (I already have) with many people.

Like I said earlier, the gun lobby group has not done a good job of education when it comes to WHAT it is that they think is not okay. I think the gun roster is NOT okay, but I didn't know this until I tried to actually get a gun. If I hadn't made that decision, I would not have truly understood what the fuss was all about. It just used to look like to me that people were upset they couldn't get semi-automatic weapons with large cartridges.

It's clearly not that, and I see that now. How the hell can an EMP 9 be okay but not an EMP 4? How can some 1911's make it when others don't and they are almost identical? This is ridiculous.

Even more ridiculous is that I can get those guns legally from any private party! This regulation does nothing to actually stop these guns from getting into California. All they did was make it more expensive for me to get one.

90% of winning any public argument is getting the message out to the public. As a former member of the public (mostly uninformed about gun laws), all I ever heard was 2nd amendment this and don't take away our guns. I never heard WHY these rules are insane, and I think if we made our own criteria, it could help a lot.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with the ARRL, but they worked with the FCC to come up with their own tests and instruction in order to get an amateur radio license from the FCC.

As I've now said a few times, I don't know the answer. What I do know is that the current strategy was one I never bought, and I think a lot of others don't buy it either. So, it would be great to come up with some other strategy to educate the public.

Maybe I am just ignorant and don't know this is already being done. I guess I'll be finding out as I plan on being active here.

Thanks!


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Let me put it this way: Should we apply the same standard to voting, being able to have a trial by jury, or freedom to redress the government over grievances? Should blacks be forced to take a test any 6th grader could pass to not be a slave? Those are enumerated rights, as is the right to keep and bear arms.

The 2nd Amendment isn't there because people like to target shoot. It isn't there because people collect militaria. It isn't there because of hunting, or even self protection from criminals. It's there, and it is so stated, as a protection of the state itself. The state is the people, all of them, not some arbitrary form of government of any type. You see, the point is that we ALREADY have the right. The 2nd Amendment doesn't GIVE us any rights. None of them do. They ALL prevent the government from stopping us from exercising rights we already naturally have. Notice the phrasing: "A well regulated militia (which is, and always was, all of us), being necessary to the security (the freedom) of a free state, (free people), the right (which already existed) of the people (the same ones who are the militia and the state) to keep (as in 'to own' and 'to have') and bear (as in 'to have on ones' posession' or 'to carry with one') arms (weapons capable of defending not only the specific person, but the freedom of all) , shall not be infringed". Note that last section. It does not say "shall be granted". That would indicate something the government or ruling authority allows or grants, sucheck as a drivers license. It says "shall not be infringed", indicating a limitation of the power of the government to prevent that which is already there.

Would anyone expect a lion to have to pass a test to be issued his fangs and claws? What about a porcupine? He already has quills as a means of defense. He's born with that. No paperwork issues hIm quills. Nature itself issued those by making him a porcupine. He has an inherent right to defend himself against all forms of agression which was gIven at birth. The 2nd Amendment stops our own quills from being removed and leaving us defenseless.

I'm not saying there are no repercussions for action. People use the fallacious "You can't yell fire in a crowded theater" as an example of restriction of rights. You can yell "fire". You have the freedom to do that any time you wish, but you have to take action and yell fire. There is no inborn prevention that must be removed before any you have the ability to do so. It's the action of maliciously yelling fire in a crowded theater where no fire exists AND the resulting harm, if any occurs, that is the crime. You're not charged with murder or negligent homicide if you yell fire and nobody moves. You might get thrown out and charged with some disturbance, but that's about it.

You mentioned driving. Not only is driving not a right, (you could always walk, and there is usually no license required to ride a horse) you can buy ANY car you wish to. Right now I can buy a semi and drive it. The driving part is the catch. I am not allowed to drive on a PUBLIC road without proper licensing, but I can buy that incredibly large and probably dangerous machine without a single license. I can buy an airplane too. I can buy a jet fighter if I have the cash. I can fly it into a building or the ground, and without proper training, that's probably exactly what's going to happen, but the fact remains that I can BUY and OWN that inanimate object (which is what arms of all types are, simply objects) but it's the ACT of flying or driving without proper licensure that is the issue.

Criminalizing ownership instead of action is the issue.
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When did I go from being a "citizen" to a "taxpayer"?

Jon Lovitz: I cant wait to go to a hospital run by the DMV!

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Dude went full CNN...

Last edited by njineermike; 10-08-2016 at 8:12 AM.. Reason: I hate android spell check
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  #32  
Old 10-08-2016, 8:44 AM
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:19 AM
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Let me put it this way: Should we apply the same standard to voting, being able to have a trial by jury, or freedom to redress the government over grievances? Should blacks be forced to take a test any 6th grader could pass to not be a slave? Those are enumerated rights, as is the right to keep and bear arms.



The 2nd Amendment isn't there because people like to target shoot. It isn't there because people collect militaria. It isn't there because of hunting, or even self protection from criminals. It's there, and it is so stated, as a protection of the state itself. The state is the people, all of them, not some arbitrary form of government of any type. You see, the point is that we ALREADY have the right. The 2nd Amendment doesn't GIVE us any rights. None of them do. They ALL prevent the government from stopping us from exercising rights we already naturally have. Notice the phrasing: "A well regulated militia (which is, and always was, all of us), being necessary to the security (the freedom) of a free state, (free people), the right (which already existed) of the people (the same ones who are the militia and the state) to keep (as in 'to own' and 'to have') and bear (as in 'to have on ones' posession' or 'to carry with one') arms (weapons capable of defending not only the specific person, but the freedom of all) , shall not be infringed". Note that last section. It does not say "shall be granted". That would indicate something the government or ruling authority allows or grants, sucheck as a drivers license. It says "shall not be infringed", indicating a limitation of the power of the government to prevent that which is already there.



Would anyone expect a lion to have to pass a test to be issued his fangs and claws? What about a porcupine? He already has quills as a means of defense. He's born with that. No paperwork issues hIm quills. Nature itself issued those by making him a porcupine. He has an inherent right to defend himself against all forms of agression which was gIven at birth. The 2nd Amendment stops our own quills from being removed and leaving us defenseless.



I'm not saying there are no repercussions for action. People use the fallacious "You can't yell fire in a crowded theater" as an example of restriction of rights. You can yell "fire". You have the freedom to do that any time you wish, but you have to take action and yell fire. There is no inborn prevention that must be removed before any you have the ability to do so. It's the action of maliciously yelling fire in a crowded theater where no fire exists AND the resulting harm, if any occurs, that is the crime. You're not charged with murder or negligent homicide if you yell fire and nobody moves. You might get thrown out and charged with some disturbance, but that's about it.



You mentioned driving. Not only is driving not a right, (you could always walk, and there is usually no license required to ride a horse) you can buy ANY car you wish to. Right now I can buy a semi and drive it. The driving part is the catch. I am not allowed to drive on a PUBLIC road without proper licensing, but I can buy that incredibly large and probably dangerous machine without a single license. I can buy an airplane too. I can buy a jet fighter if I have the cash. I can fly it into a building or the ground, and without proper training, that's probably exactly what's going to happen, but the fact remains that I can BUY and OWN that inanimate object (which is what arms of all types are, simply objects) but it's the ACT of flying or driving without proper licensure that is the issue.



Criminalizing ownership instead of action is the issue.


--
Listen, I get what you are saying. What I'm saying is that this line of thought simply does not resonate with the public anymore. And if you want to push your position, you need to do it with a different argument.

The 5th amendment isn't what it used to be, the 4th amendment gets violated every single day by the gov't, and nobody seems to care.

The 2nd amendment is in the same position.

If we want to expand gun rights, we need to think of better ways of explaining the position.

That may be perhaps a push toward personal self-defense and safety shotguns to bring more people into the mix. Maybe it's more .22 shooting contests with larger cash prizes. Maybe it is even doing more voluntary turn-ins of unregistered weapons to show the gun rights people are about responsible gun rights. I'm new to this, so I don't know yet what I think is the best course of action. What I can tell you is that I was unconvinced by the arguments as they have been presented to me before.

I can tell you that for me, what made me switch was the belief that the police will not be there when I need them, and I need to protect myself and my family by myself.

Maybe others can chime in on what finally did it for them, and we can concentrate on better avenues of approach.



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Old 10-08-2016, 10:45 AM
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Told y'all we needed an inspection!

j/k

You're thinking about the issues and that's further than 90% of the pop goes. Good on you, keep thinking, keep talking, listening, learning. Sharpen yourself constantly.
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  #35  
Old 10-08-2016, 6:31 PM
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njineermike njineermike is offline
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Listen, I get what you are saying. What I'm saying is that this line of thought simply does not resonate with the public anymore. And if you want to push your position, you need to do it with a different argument.

The 5th amendment isn't what it used to be, the 4th amendment gets violated every single day by the gov't, and nobody seems to care.

The 2nd amendment is in the same position.

If we want to expand gun rights, we need to think of better ways of explaining the position.

That may be perhaps a push toward personal self-defense and safety shotguns to bring more people into the mix. Maybe it's more .22 shooting contests with larger cash prizes. Maybe it is even doing more voluntary turn-ins of unregistered weapons to show the gun rights people are about responsible gun rights. I'm new to this, so I don't know yet what I think is the best course of action. What I can tell you is that I was unconvinced by the arguments as they have been presented to me before.

I can tell you that for me, what made me switch was the belief that the police will not be there when I need them, and I need to protect myself and my family by myself.

Maybe others can chime in on what finally did it for them, and we can concentrate on better avenues of approach.



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That's the problem. People don't worry about free speech until it's curtailed. They don't worry about the right to a far trial until some prosecutor decides to play dirty. They just run blithely along with the idea that everything is fine as long as THEIR rights are fine. They don't care that others rights are infringed upon. Until they become the "other". Then they suddenly care. And usually by then it's too late. We see things differently. We see the right to bear arms as a civil right, while a portion of the general populace sees it as a hobby at best, a societal nuisance at worst. And keep in mind you see things from a California perspective. It's not like that everywhere. In most states going after gun rights is a fast way to being voted out of office and not getting back.
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Dude went full CNN...
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  #36  
Old 10-08-2016, 8:46 PM
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Welcome to calguns! Get used to the jokes and douches. Plenty of them both
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  #37  
Old 10-08-2016, 9:33 PM
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JeepFiend JeepFiend is offline
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...Maybe it is even doing more voluntary turn-ins of unregistered weapons to show the gun rights people are about responsible gun rights...
Just my opinion, but I believe that kind of thinking is the problem right there. Many who want stricter gun laws say we need to have "responsible gun ownership" and "common sense gun laws". But as you've already pointed out, the "common sense gun laws" use anything but common sense. But you don't realize that until you're faced with it. And being that it seems most of our gun bills start out as climate change and clean air bills, they get pushed through pretty quickly by the uninformed masses. And then of course, there's the argument...um, we have laws that, if enforced, would have prevented large numbers of these folks from having guns in the first place, thus not requiring "stricter" gun laws. Why add more laws that don't get enforced properly, doing nothing to prevent crime, and the only people that pay the price for these further infringements are the people that actually comply with the law anyway. I can pretty confidently assure you that the OTNC crew isn't going to start engraving their serial number free weapons just to make sure they're in compliance with AB857.

Additionally, the issue with demonstrating responsible gun ownership, as I see it, is that, as my father used to say, you can pet a dog 100 times and beat him once....the one beating will always be the first thing he remembers. Gun owners, by and large, are responsible and law abiding citizens. But even a small percentage that flash guns or perform dumbass actions, either live or on youtube or facebook, wipe out 100 responsible deeds with one moronic one.

And then there's the media...
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  #38  
Old 10-09-2016, 9:55 AM
azeemtn azeemtn is offline
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Just my opinion, but I believe that kind of thinking is the problem right there. Many who want stricter gun laws say we need to have "responsible gun ownership" and "common sense gun laws". But as you've already pointed out, the "common sense gun laws" use anything but common sense. But you don't realize that until you're faced with it. And being that it seems most of our gun bills start out as climate change and clean air bills, they get pushed through pretty quickly by the uninformed masses. And then of course, there's the argument...um, we have laws that, if enforced, would have prevented large numbers of these folks from having guns in the first place, thus not requiring "stricter" gun laws. Why add more laws that don't get enforced properly, doing nothing to prevent crime, and the only people that pay the price for these further infringements are the people that actually comply with the law anyway. I can pretty confidently assure you that the OTNC crew isn't going to start engraving their serial number free weapons just to make sure they're in compliance with AB857.



Additionally, the issue with demonstrating responsible gun ownership, as I see it, is that, as my father used to say, you can pet a dog 100 times and beat him once....the one beating will always be the first thing he remembers. Gun owners, by and large, are responsible and law abiding citizens. But even a small percentage that flash guns or perform dumbass actions, either live or on youtube or facebook, wipe out 100 responsible deeds with one moronic one.



And then there's the media...


Here's the hard truth as I see it.

The media is made up of people. They represent the views of many people that feel similarly. They aren't some other class of humans. They just happen to fall into where most people fall, which is that they think guns are inherently dangerous.

The current game plan of using the NRA for promotion isn't working.

If a new tactic isn't used, the same result will continue to occur.

Some of you can argue all day long about 2A this and that, but it doesn't change the stark reality.

Find some new tactics, the ones in use today don't work.


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