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CGSSA Shoots, Meets and Range Stories Set up and organize shoots and meets and share your shooting range stories.

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  #81  
Old 01-20-2014, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
on those 96 weekend days, what percentage of the range is taken up? All 11-12 bays? of the bays not taken up by matches, what is the percentage of occupancy of those bays?

for instance, on the 4th Sunday, the only thing I see listed is IDPA which uses 4 bays, leaving 7-8 bays left for plinkers. What is the occupancy rate of those bays at that time.

before people make wholesale changes to the system, it would be nice to see some actual numbers showing usage of all the bays and how matches affect the overall occupancy of the range.
I'm not suggesting wholesale changes. I said let's add 2 or 3 bays and maybe have some of the disciplines start at 1:00 pm when crowd's thin out.
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  #82  
Old 01-20-2014, 4:55 PM
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I see that many weekends only 4 bays or so are taken up by pistol matches and the rest of the range is open for plinkers. only on 1 or 2 days a month does it appear that a rifle match is using the rifle pads that close up more bays than that, and that even then they start long and work their way forward to open up bays behind them.

If we had a matches start at 1, I could see plinkers being upset if a group came in at 1PM and kicked them off their bays.
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  #83  
Old 01-20-2014, 4:58 PM
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Logistics input - How are you going to start at 1pm when it takes 2-3 hours to setup the match?
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  #84  
Old 01-20-2014, 5:14 PM
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One of the biggest issues for many of us is that the new president made plinkers vs. matches an issue without ANY study at all. he has NO DATA to back up his claims. All he did was just feed into the ranges "gossip / urban legend". A lot of people are opposed to his positions because they were all taken with NO actual study of the evidence at all. No survey of range usage on the weekends... something he and his buddies could have easily done without asking anyone. NO review and analysis of the clubs historical financial information... again available for everyone to see monthly, no pro-forma financial analysis to back up the $90 dues proposal... NO thoughtful, rational, professional and measured approach to anything. Just the articulation of the range rumor mill and a random number UNDER $100 for his dues proposal: utter irresponsibility at every turn. And when he won the election, no prepared statement, no offer to work with the board of directors... just his statements of "we" will do this and that, referring to himself and Scott Dexter. NO leadership exhibited by this guy at all. THAT IS A CONCERN to many members who have been contributing to the club over the years.

With his confrontational attitude, lack of professionalism, lack of ability to develop and analyze data to back up his positions and inability to bring people together... all he has done is divide, not to mention the over $35,000 he cost the club with his lawsuit and maybe more if he releases member data to ANYONE, I don't think he can effectively lead and in fact the board will simply ignore him. He has one vote, he cannot bring any motions to the floor and any motions Dexter brings will simply not be seconded and therefore not even have a chance to be voted down. As I said before, I think Lipson liked the idea of being a gun club president far more than he will like the reality of governance.

With the lack of research and preparation of data on range usage and a financial analysis of the clubs revenue and expenses, I am left wondering if he is ignorant and incompetent or just lazy.

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-20-2014 at 5:23 PM..
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  #85  
Old 01-20-2014, 5:19 PM
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using this month as an example; just tracking the main bays, not looking at the JR range.

1/4/14 4 bays taken until 1pm; that leaves 7 bays available.
1/5/14 no bay taken, 11 bays available to plinkers
1/11/14 6 bays, 5 bays left
1/12/14 no bays taken, 11 bays left.
1/18/14 7 bays, 4 bays left
1/19/14 11 bays taken, 0 bays left
1/20/14 11 bays taken, 0 bays left
1/26/14 4 bays taken, 7 bays left.

so adding up all the days, I see 43 bays taken, 45 bays left open for the month of January, and many of those bays are available by 1PM or so. So, you can say that the match guys take up 92% of the weekends, but they definitely arent taking up 92% of the range. Sure looks like a lot of availability for the plinkers if they want it.

And do any of the plinkers enjoy using the bays that have been setup for the weekend matches before hand? I know it isn't a big deal in the scheme of things, but does that count for anything?
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  #86  
Old 01-20-2014, 5:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin2 View Post
. NO review and analysis of the clubs historical financial information... again available for everyone to see monthly, no pro-forma financial analysis to back up the $90 dues proposal... NO thoughtful, rational, professional and measured approach to anything. Just the articulation of the range rumor mill and a random number UNDER $100 for his dues proposal: utter irresponsibility at every turn.

oh, and when they point to those "150 discipline shooters" that use the range every month, did they determine how much money the club made off of the entry fees. Even at the lowest $10 match fee if everyone was a member, and I don't know if some matches have higher fees than that, that could potentially add up to $1500/month, or more, in income to the club ( I don't know the exact numbers each match contributes back into the club coffers, making some WAGs here). Do they expect to make that money out renting out the back bays to members? I thought that was what my yearly dues was for? so not only will the club have less money on yearly dues if the $240 > $90 price cut went into effect, but it will effectively lose another $10 per member in match fees.
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  #87  
Old 01-20-2014, 5:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
using this month as an example; just tracking the main bays, not looking at the JR range.

1/4/14 4 bays taken until 1pm; that leaves 7 bays available.
1/5/14 no bay taken, 11 bays available to plinkers
1/11/14 6 bays, 5 bays left
1/12/14 no bays taken, 11 bays left.
1/18/14 7 bays, 4 bays left
1/19/14 11 bays taken, 0 bays left
1/20/14 11 bays taken, 0 bays left
1/26/14 4 bays taken, 7 bays left.

so adding up all the days, I see 43 bays taken, 45 bays left open for the month of January, and many of those bays are available by 1PM or so. So, you can say that the match guys take up 92% of the weekends, but they definitely arent taking up 92% of the range. Sure looks like a lot of availability for the plinkers if they want it.

And do any of the plinkers enjoy using the bays that have been setup for the weekend matches before hand? I know it isn't a big deal in the scheme of things, but does that count for anything?
Again , any reasonable analysis I have seen so far (nothing from the guy who claims there is a problem) does not support the "access crisis" which maybe why he never did any analysis. The same thing probably goes for the $90 annual dues. Any analysis of the financial's and reasonable pro forma's would never support that... so maybe that why it was never done. I cant think of any other reason why a guy fighting for three years to campaign on those two planks would not have the numbers to back up his claims.

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-20-2014 at 5:40 PM..
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  #88  
Old 01-20-2014, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
oh, and when they point to those "150 discipline shooters" that use the range every month, did they determine how much money the club made off of the entry fees. Even at the lowest $10 match fee if everyone was a member, and I don't know if some matches have higher fees than that, that could potentially add up to $1500/month, or more, in income to the club ( I don't know the exact numbers each match contributes back into the club coffers, making some WAGs here). Do they expect to make that money out renting out the back bays to members? I thought that was what my yearly dues was for? so not only will the club have less money on yearly dues if the $240 > $90 price cut went into effect, but it will effectively lose another $10 per member in match fees.
The board of directors/ match directors are thinking about raising all match fees by $5/$10 per shooter (subject to financial analysis) to start funding a lead abatement fund...to make sure we are constantly doing the things we need to do to keep the environmental nazis from shutting the range down for everyone...plinkers and match shooters alike.

Right now, owning our land and surrounded by National Forest, the only things that could shut us down are environmental issues or trespass onto national forest lands or GROSS MISMANAGEMENT BY THE GALACTICLLY INCOMPETENT.

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-20-2014 at 5:42 PM..
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  #89  
Old 01-20-2014, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ronin2 View Post
The board of directors/ match directors are thinking about raising all match fees by $5/$10 per shooter (subject to financial analysis) to start funding a lead abatement fund...to make sure we are constantly doing the things we need to do to keep the environmental nazis from shutting the range down for everyone...plinkers and match shooters alike.

Right now, owning our land and surrounded by National Forest, the only things that could shut us down are environmental issues or trespass onto national forest lands or GROSS MISMANAGEMENT BY THE GALACTICLLY INCOMPETENT.
Or a very public civil war and subsequent libel suits directed first at you and than your cross complaint.

Did this private club matter really need to be broadcast worldwide on the Internet??
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  #90  
Old 01-20-2014, 6:11 PM
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The club made $420 off this last months PBR match alone. Combine the fees from all matches and it should be well over $1500 per month.
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  #91  
Old 01-20-2014, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ronin2 View Post
One of the biggest issues for many of us is that the new president made plinkers vs. matches an issue without ANY study at all. he has NO DATA to back up his claims. All he did was just feed into the ranges "gossip / urban legend". A lot of people are opposed to his positions because they were all taken with NO actual study of the evidence at all. No survey of range usage on the weekends... something he and his buddies could have easily done without asking anyone. NO review and analysis of the clubs historical financial information... again available for everyone to see monthly, no pro-forma financial analysis to back up the $90 dues proposal... NO thoughtful, rational, professional and measured approach to anything. Just the articulation of the range rumor mill and a random number UNDER $100 for his dues proposal: utter irresponsibility at every turn. And when he won the election, no prepared statement, no offer to work with the board of directors... just his statements of "we" will do this and that, referring to himself and Scott Dexter. NO leadership exhibited by this guy at all. THAT IS A CONCERN to many members who have been contributing to the club over the years.

With his confrontational attitude, lack of professionalism, lack of ability to develop and analyze data to back up his positions and inability to bring people together... all he has done is divide, not to mention the over $35,000 he cost the club with his lawsuit and maybe more if he releases member data to ANYONE, I don't think he can effectively lead and in fact the board will simply ignore him. He has one vote, he cannot bring any motions to the floor and any motions Dexter brings will simply not be seconded and therefore not even have a chance to be voted down. As I said before, I think Lipson liked the idea of being a gun club president far more than he will like the reality of governance.

With the lack of research and preparation of data on range usage and a financial analysis of the clubs revenue and expenses, I am left wondering if he is ignorant and incompetent or just lazy.
If all that you say is true, then we are screwed for a year and he gets voted out at the next election. But if things continue the way they are more members will probably not renew in the long run and that's not good for the club either.There has to be a little common ground that we can all agree on.
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  #92  
Old 01-20-2014, 6:37 PM
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There has to be a little common ground that we can all agree on.
There should be.. WEGC is a great place to be a member and be able to shoot if you live in the LA basin. I have been a member for 13 years and always enjoy meeting my fellow members no matter if I am plinking, shooting matches or volunteering to help out at the range.

There are a number of serious issues facing all shooting ranges, WEGC included, and the new president hasn't the slightest idea what they are or any knowledge about any of them. He damn well better get his priorities straight and up to speed quick or we are all screwed

Last edited by Ronin2; 01-20-2014 at 7:34 PM..
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  #93  
Old 01-21-2014, 7:32 AM
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Whatever your positions I would strongly encourge all WEGC members to attend the monthly meetings, get involved and post on the WEGC members website and contact all of the board members with your postions and concerns.

Remember that the sergeant at arms of the club is the members voice if they are unable to attend the meeting.

Btw, for full disclosure I am one of the former range masters and the current project director of the club. John
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  #94  
Old 01-21-2014, 11:22 AM
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Yes, in fact every campaign promise made by these guys CAN NOT be achieved without a majority of the board agreeing.
If this is true (and I hope it is), doesn't this preclude Larry from doing anything knee jerk that could hurt the club? If a board majority is required to change anything of significance, won't the club just motor on as before while he and his partner tilt at windmills?
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  #95  
Old 01-21-2014, 12:01 PM
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the matches v plinkers sounds like a problem my club experienced. we had extra land (and it reads as though WEGC does too) that we developed with $ from the coffers for match shooters. the matches are charged a day rate (to repay the coffers) and during the week the range is rentable (police training, movies, members) for additional club income.

idk if anything like this would be an option for your guys' facility, but how this reads right now is that there is a war a brewin'.
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  #96  
Old 01-21-2014, 12:47 PM
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There is no war, it's a group of people making an issue out of nothing and stirring the pot.
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  #97  
Old 01-21-2014, 6:42 PM
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We have some open land but a dry stream seems to be keeping us from making good use of it. I was also told that some of that land has quick sand on it. The other candidate for President suggested that we run that stream through a concrete tunnel or pipe and develop over the top of it. Of course this takes money. I still think we could make some short pistol bays next to the main range with some of this space, but I have not walked the area or asked anyone who seems to really know the property.

We already have an issue with the property line not being where it was initially thought. The other candidate also had various ideas for solving that issue, but they would require money for legal counsel even in the best case. We, supposedly, may be able to lease that property if needed, and that takes money.

I need to get to the meetings to see if any of these ideas have been addressed. I think the club needs to utilize as much space as possible. More bays would help us all. Lowering the member fees will make range upgrades just that much more unlikely.

To Bubbapug1's comment: What is going on at the range could be kept private, but it effects members and future members. A number of us on calguns are members. The info could end up useful to people who are in similar gun clubs, or maybe someone from another club will have some good input. Info on ranges, whether private or public, is interesting to some. I suppose there is always a chance for someone to try to use it against us. We take that risk with any info we put on this forum.
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  #98  
Old 01-22-2014, 8:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
And do any of the plinkers enjoy using the bays that have been setup for the weekend matches before hand? I know it isn't a big deal in the scheme of things, but does that count for anything?
They used to allow that. I like Bay 6 and usually go on Fridays. We would stand-down for a bit while they set up the bay and then they would allow us to shoot their steel.

What happened is that some asshats came along one time and shot their steel with rifles. So now, once a bay has been staged, no one is allowed to shoot there. Which is too bad, because I think Bay 6 is the best bay of the bunch.
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  #99  
Old 01-22-2014, 9:21 AM
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They used to allow that. I like Bay 6 and usually go on Fridays. We would stand-down for a bit while they set up the bay and then they would allow us to shoot their steel.

What happened is that some asshats came along one time and shot their steel with rifles. So now, once a bay has been staged, no one is allowed to shoot there. Which is too bad, because I think Bay 6 is the best bay of the bunch.
I know that when I show up for the IDPA matches there is usually a sign up stating that the plinkers are free to use the props already set up for the match, but not to damage anything. maybe they wait until the morning of the match to drag out the steel, but I'm guessing the wood props are pre-staged and that is what the sign is referring to?
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  #100  
Old 01-22-2014, 10:35 AM
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What happened is that some asshats came along one time and shot their steel with rifles.


Ah.. the problem with plinkers. Its amazing all the stuff they will shoot at that they should'nt when no one is around.
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  #101  
Old 01-22-2014, 11:57 AM
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I know that when I show up for the IDPA matches there is usually a sign up stating that the plinkers are free to use the props already set up for the match, but not to damage anything. maybe they wait until the morning of the match to drag out the steel, but I'm guessing the wood props are pre-staged and that is what the sign is referring to?
Probably right about the steel...I know they've had some out-right thefts of their steel before. IIRC, one of the match directors usually sets-up a trailer to stay overnight to prevent vandalism/theft now.
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Old 01-31-2014, 9:52 AM
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Seams to me, anytime a small group holds power to the extent to be able to tell the majority what they can and cant do and they hold power by any means, that leadership needs to change ( just think Obama ) is that not what is going on with our beloved 2nd amendment.
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  #103  
Old 01-31-2014, 2:11 PM
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Seams to me, anytime a small group holds power to the extent to be able to tell the majority what they can and cant do and they hold power by any means, that leadership needs to change ( just think Obama ) is that not what is going on with our beloved 2nd amendment.
I'm not sure that was the case. Less than 420 out of 1603 members cast votes so Pres. Lipsons claim to have been voted in by the majority of the clubs members concerned about plinkers not being able to access shooting bays on weekends due to match activity is a bit construed.

94 of the votes Lipson got for president did not follow thru and write in his buddies Steve McClosky and Jack Costello, indicating that they probably voted for the unrealistic, unresearched and unsubstantiated dues reduction proposal Larry floated.

So of the total votes cast, approx 420, Larry Lipsons full slate, including his two writing candidates, got 150 votes...hardly a mandate of any kind from the majority of voters or the majority of members...
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  #104  
Old 02-02-2014, 6:09 PM
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Am I wrong in thinking that the original purpose of WEGC was to promote competitive shooting of all kinds? Is it not written into it's constitution? I am not a member, but I do shoot 3gun there. There have been plenty of times I have been there and seen unused bays.
It has been made clear for a very long time that the members that are not involved in the club revenue based weekend club activities like Omega, 3 gun, and other outside groups that rent the rear bays to stay clear of the member area until after 1400. While you may see an open bay or two, they are NOT open for member use and are briskly moved to the public area to pay the reduced member rate to shoot. Bay 3 used to be open during the rental times, but since it is high ground the heavy equiptment is stored there and fenced in. The club makes its money from weekend events and the plinker members have been shunned for the most part on the weekends. 5th sat/sun of the month was reserved for the plinkers, but really how often does that happen? I have been a member since 2000, funny how I did not even get a ballot!!
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Old 02-02-2014, 8:09 PM
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It has been made clear for a very long time that the members that are not involved in the club revenue based weekend club activities like Omega, 3 gun, and other outside groups that rent the rear bays to stay clear of the member area until after 1400. While you may see an open bay or two, they are NOT open for member use and are briskly moved to the public area to pay the reduced member rate to shoot. Bay 3 used to be open during the rental times, but since it is high ground the heavy equiptment is stored there and fenced in. The club makes its money from weekend events and the plinker members have been shunned for the most part on the weekends. 5th sat/sun of the month was reserved for the plinkers, but really how often does that happen? I have been a member since 2000, funny how I did not even get a ballot!!
Are you sure you have been going to west end and not some other range?

I have shown up while matches were going on and had no problem getting the open bays in the back. I shoot matches often and no one kicks people out of the short bays, especially 1-6. I have seen a match director tell people not to shoot in 7-11 because they were setting up steel for a 200 yard COF.

I have been a member for a year. Bay 3 has always been on the West side of the road next to the double conex boxes. It has stage type seating and a big canopy. Yes there is a utility bay across the way from number 3, but that has also been there for the last year.

I have shown up to shoot on the limited members range, out front, for a c&r shoot. They didn't charge full members for shooting on that range.

There are also days where there are no matches, besides the 5th weekend. The calendar listed a lever action match for last Sunday, but lever action will not resume until March. I contacted the web master and let them know that the error just limits plinkers use even more. They would assume the back 200 yard pad was unavailable and they may not come out. The web master fixed that part of the calendar, after talking to the match director.

Have you been out to West End in the last year, and has it been on the weekend?

It seems like the plinkers don't even bother to try to go out on the weekend. 75%+ of my shooting is on the weekend. I have no problem doing matches or getting bays for plinking. I will double up with people if needed. Many people drive up to the 200 yard pad, but don't even stop to ask if they can join. I'm not sure if they only want private bays or if they will not share a rifle line. I have no problem jumping in on the rifle line. All the members have been willing to let people get their targets out and find a bench.

If what you say is true about the range master turning away plinkers from empty bays, then that needs to change. I have never heard of that happening.

Do you keep up with the news on the west end forum? Do you go to club meetings? I knew there was an election as well as many people who I shoot with. I couldn't vote because I was still in my first year, but you should have got a ballot if you were a member in the previous year. Did you contact the club to get a ballot?
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  #106  
Old 02-04-2014, 7:57 PM
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$240 divided by 12 months is only $20 per month. That isn't bad for what a member gets. Even a first year member would do OK at $40 per month with their initiation. The norco range charges $30 to shoot for a minimum of two hours and it doesn't match all the benefits of of West End.

I can understand people being mad if the rates went up when they were advertised to not go up, but lower prices are not always better either.

I do hope the rest of the board and members have power to control any crazy ideas that may be pushed through by these guys.

I wonder how they got so many votes. Was it the lower rates that were promised, the restrictions for competitions (which makes me feel thrown under the bus), or did they just have a good sales pitch? I wonder if the voters thought about all the possibilities of where the new President and Treasurer, who are 180 to the current ones, would take us. Unfortunately I joined a month too late to vote in this election.
Not a member but have been looking hard at it lately. I can't believe people actually believed those numbers. Who the hell that shoots actively these days thinks $20 a month to have full time access to a private range is HIGH PRICED?

People are idiots and I'm not reconsidering joining dolts that would vote for such a thing.
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Old 02-04-2014, 8:42 PM
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I was at the range today shooting the LESA match, A two gun handgun/shotgun combat match. The LESA match has five stages and uses five of the clubs eleven shooting bays. There was a smAll cowboy match using bay two only. Given all that claims of members/plinkers being shut out of the shoting bays on match days, I decided to conduct a usage survey today and elbow are the results;

The LESA match was attended by 21 competitors of which fifteen were WEGC members and six were guests. Therefore 71.4% of the LESA match participants were WEGC members.


At 0900 hrs
Cowboy match; Bay 2
LESA; bay 3,5,6,10 and 11
Plinkers; 0
Empty bays; bays 1,4,7,8,9


At 1045 hrs

Cowboy match; bay 2
LESA; Bays 3,5,6,10,11
Plinkers; bays 4,8
Empty bays; bays 1,7,9

1130 hrs
Cowboy match; bay 2
LESA match; bay 3,5,6,10,11
Plinkers ; bay 4,7,8,9
Empty bays; bay 1

1315 hrs
Cowboy match; bay 2
LESA match ; over
Empty bays; bays 3,5,6
Plinkers; bays 1,4,7,8,9,10,11

Of the plinkers at 1315 hrs, usage broke down a follows;

Bay 1. 1 member
Bay 4. 1 member 2 guests
Bay 7. 2 members 2 guests
Bay 8. 1 member. 2 guests
Bay 9. 1 member 1 guest
Bay 10 2 members
Bay 11. 2 members 1 guest


Utilization report;

LESA: five bays used for 21 particpants with 15 WEGC = members per bay factor is "3 WEGC members per bay utilized".

Cowboy Match; one bay used for 22 participants with 7 WEGC = Members per bay factor is "7 WEGCmembers per bay utilized"

Plinkers; @1315 hrs; seven bays used by 10 WEGC members and 8 guests and the members per bay factor is "1.42 WEGC members per bay utilized".

At 0115 hrs there were three empty unused bays (bays 3,5 and 6 just vacated by LESA)

The front public range use was lite to moderate. When I get home. Will post photos of the front firing lines taken at 0900, 1130 and 0120 hrs.

There was at least one unused bay the entire time the matches were running. At least today, the scheduled displine matches resulted in at least 100% improvement in members per bay utilized than the plinkers. I wonder what will be done when, if the matches are all cancelled, all the bays have 1.4 members per bay?? Will it then move on to "some members are more equal than others? Will there be time limits set like the gyms put on stationary bikes? And with $90 dues and no emplyees wh will oversee and manage that process? All the "plinkers " who volunteer and help build the club (LOL)? Or will everyone just be left to "sort it out among themselves??
No offense as I'm not a member, but your cite above doesn't do anything to address the comments/sentiment posted that the match shooting has changed the nature of the club.

Your assessment is very small, and also discounts the fact that the long term behavior of the club management (i.e. match scheduling) has affected "plinker/family" behavior in their us or membership in the club. They've been driven out and now the landscape is being pointed to with a "See...there aren't many here at all!"

What I don't understand is why the club is completely unable to determine the best balanced needs of it's membership. Can they not simply reserve a bay or two absolutely for plinkers for say....90 days...and take stats on usage of that range, especially if they notify the entire membership of it's availability? After that they could point to that test and with confidence say they know the needs of the entire membership.
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Old 02-05-2014, 12:03 AM
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also thinking about joining WEGC.

but my main concern is also availability: wegc is far enough that it would get old pretty quick to drive out and find that almost all of the back bays are filled or otherwise unavailable. shooting at 100 yards... ehh... that can be done at several places.

and seeing as how data on the actual usage (esp over time) seems to be somewhat limited right now - although i do thank those of you who took the time to gather the data posted so far - i think a first step would be to simply take stats/numbers on range usage over a period of time. adjust needs accordingly. i.e. i would be much more inclined to be a member knowing that well thought out planning/execution can help ensure that my $ and time don't end up going down the drain too often (i do realize that sometimes there will have to be compromise and give/let simply due to limited space/facility and not as limited membership).
haven't applied for partial membership simply b/c the place is too out of the way just to do 100 yard shooting. that and crossing that riverbed in front gonna leave my car with a lot of nice new dings

as for the new president... sounds bad. but if everything he has promised does require the approval of others (aside from lowering fees)... well... i do suppose everyone could just wait for this guy to blow over.

Last edited by penguinofsleep; 02-05-2014 at 12:07 AM..
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  #109  
Old 02-05-2014, 12:56 AM
Ronin2 Ronin2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stepanian View Post
What I don't understand is why the club is completely unable to determine the best balanced needs of it's membership. Can they not simply reserve a bay or two absolutely for plinkers for say....90 days...and take stats on usage of that range, especially if they notify the entire membership of it's availability? After that they could point to that test and with confidence say they know the needs of the entire membership.

That would really be an adequate sample to determine what the needs of 1600 members are? Really? I thnk you need to go back to the drawing board on that one.

As for the needs of the club membership;. 1600 members, 420 voters... Seems to me that the silent majority seem to think things are just right and they are happy withi the management of the club... Or they would most likely vote... Or not renew membership, empirically speaking.

Keep in mind that most of the 800 members added since the land was purchased 12 years ago, came out to see a club with a very developed schedule of organized matches and junior program that was in place at the same time the land was purchased...AND THEY JOINED. With the developed shooting disciplines, membership doubled, empirically speaking.

Mr Lipson and Dexter have created a problem where there was not one, using deceit and lies to motivate the low information voters to support them.

The clubs stated mission per its by laws is as follows (by laws as of 1/08/13);

"WEST END GUN CLUB, INC. (hereinafter referred to as the Club) is a non-profit California Corporation (501 (c)(7) Social Club) dedicated to encouraging organized rifle, pistol and shotgun shooting among citizens of the United States, improving the citizens’ knowledge of safe handling and proper care of firearms, improving marksmanship and developing the characteristics of honesty, good sportsmanship, self discipline and self reliance as essential to good citizenship. Further, the Club shall achieve these goals by, among other means, regularly hosting and sponsoring as many different educational shooting and organized shooting related events as possible".

Last edited by Ronin2; 02-05-2014 at 12:58 AM..
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  #110  
Old 02-05-2014, 10:31 AM
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"Keep in mind that most of the 800 members added since the land was purchased 12 years ago, came out to see a club with a very developed schedule of organized matches and junior program that was in place at the same time the land was purchased...AND THEY JOINED"

That is a great point!!!

I have listened to people complain who joined recently. They could have easily researched the schedule before they joined. I did quite a bit of research before I finally decided to join. I looked at the club calendar and talked to other west end shooters a number of times for a period of a few years, before finally shooting a competition there and deciding to join. I knew what I was in for and had no problems with it.

I understand that people may want to change how it is run, but they can't use the excuse that they didn't know the schedule when they decided the club was good enough for their needs.

Yes, 400+ votes out of 1600 is pretty pathetic. I wonder how many were eligible to vote this election.
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  #111  
Old 02-05-2014, 10:47 AM
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That would really be an adequate sample to determine what the needs of 1600 members are? Really? I thnk you need to go back to the drawing board on that one.

As for the needs of the club membership;. 1600 members, 420 voters... Seems to me that the silent majority seem to think things are just right and they are happy withi the management of the club... Or they would most likely vote... Or not renew membership, empirically speaking. .[/b]
A couple points:

No, I don't think that would be an adequate sample size. But you're acting like this needs to be some sort of major undertaking. It doesn't. Some small adjustments, while communicating those slow changes to the membership will likely get to the right level. I don't think reducing matches by 75% is the answer personally.

You cite the silent majority and that people seem to be happy. I saw elsewhere in this thread that it's projected that 150 memberships will likely become vacant this year. That's 10% of your membership deciding to go elsewhere. Not necessarily alarming, but not a churn rate I'd like if I was in charge.

I agree with others on this post: the main reason I'm joining IS for the match shooting. I've taken plenty of training but cannot go anywhere to do any practical practice...follow up shots, drawing from a holster, etc. No ranges allow any of those perishable skills to be worked on.
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  #112  
Old 02-05-2014, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Stepanian View Post
A couple points:

You cite the silent majority and that people seem to be happy. I saw elsewhere in this thread that it's projected that 150 memberships will likely become vacant this year. That's 10% of your membership deciding to go elsewhere. Not necessarily alarming, but not a churn rate I'd like if I was in charge.
FYI, that has always been the approximate annual non renewal rate due to any number of neutral, non negative reasons such as death, relocation/moving, economics, simply not using the range as much as planned, getting out of the hobby ect...In the case of West End Gun Club, I would say that the increase in dues is probably the primary culprit, forcing those who do not use the club enough to justify in their minds the higher dues to reassess their membership, thereby making room for those who will use the club and consider the club a good value.

Both my yacht club and country club experience similar natural rates of attrition and like WEGC both have waiting lists of people who have seen and like the program and are waiting their turn to join.

The attrition rate would only be a concern IF there were not new prospective members waiting in the wings and at last count the waiting list was over 75 people. You should be happy for that attrition rate as it is what is allowing you to become a member. BTW... if you do join, welcome aboard and we hope will enjoy your membership. See you out on the line!
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  #113  
Old 02-11-2014, 10:52 AM
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JMB,
you are dangerously dancing in libel and well past the point of out right lies.
you have ZERO evidence to support ANY of the numbers or accusations you spew while attempting to discredit those who take the time to produce information because it does not support your BS.
I would bet you're lying when you claim not to know Lipson either.
only the membership can change the price of the dues. not the board!
last January, 349 members voted for the increase. I voted against it.
more than half of the voting eligible members didn't bother to vote.
if your claim that the 240ish members that voted for Lipson is a large representation of the membership, how would you characterize 100 more?
with the exception of a few hours on 2 Sundays a month, there are always bays available to the general membership. I don't like the term plinkers its not an insult to plink and I don't know any shooter competitive or otherwise that doesn't plink at some point. there should be no delineation between someone who prefers to shoot privately vs those more gregarious. the purpose of the club has ALWAYS been to support the shooting sports. all 1600 members are encouraged to pick up their guns, come out, socialize and hone their skills. you do not have to own the top equipment or excel at the game to participate. action pistol, 3gun, idpa, and lesa are all designed to improve your ability to react in a stressful and dangerous situation, like a burglary, and its FUN. the high power, pbr and the silhouette games are designed to improve your skills in the field(some find it FUN) grab your hunting rifle and learn how to be more accurate in the field. cowboy action increases your familiarity with your wheel guns and is just plain FUN. call your board members, find out how to get involved. or if you don't want the company (I like some private time too) check the calendar to see which bays are open and come on down. there's ALWAYS room for one more. this is a non issue that some are trying to use as a wedge. if you've ever been blocked out of the range, I encourage you to contact the Sargent of Arms, identify yourself and when it occurred and allow the board to work on it. to date, I don't believe anyone has ever done this.
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  #114  
Old 02-11-2014, 11:04 AM
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Stepanian,
the club has increased by some 500 plus members in the last few years. you could credit the current board for that but I think the fact that we've lost two ranges in the vicinity is the larger force. as such I don't think that you can blame the current board for the attrition rate either. there are a dozen of reasons or more why people surrender their memberships. the attrition rate will probably continue to go down as the waiting list gets longer. the fact that fish canyon and inland f&g are both gone is all the more reason why this club will need to be proactive in the environmental issues and that unfortunately cost money.
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  #115  
Old 02-11-2014, 11:09 AM
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I don't even know why this is and other club issues are being discussed here. We (WEGC) are a private club, and have our own forum for members and officers to discuss club issues. We also have monthly meetings open to the members.
I know several of us belong to Calguns, but all WEGC members here have the ability to access the club's forum. With a club of 1600 members, there will always be disagreements. We will work out our issues, just as we have done in the past. But threads like this will stay on the internet long after the issue is resolved. And the damage done to the clubs reputation may last for years.
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  #116  
Old 02-11-2014, 11:14 AM
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There is a board meeting tonight at 6:30. If you are a member I strongly encourage you to be there. I will be there.
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  #117  
Old 02-11-2014, 12:53 PM
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I'll do my best to be there. I'll be there with my wife and 2 year old, stop and say hi.
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  #118  
Old 02-11-2014, 1:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5shot View Post
I don't even know why this is and other club issues are being discussed here. We (WEGC) are a private club, and have our own forum for members and officers to discuss club issues. We also have monthly meetings open to the members.
I know several of us belong to Calguns, but all WEGC members here have the ability to access the club's forum. With a club of 1600 members, there will always be disagreements. We will work out our issues, just as we have done in the past. But threads like this will stay on the internet long after the issue is resolved. And the damage done to the clubs reputation may last for years.
I'm glad for threads like this. I'm not a member, but have an interest in these things because I shoot 3gun at WEGC. The reputation of the club is not diminished at all in my mind. Lipson's and Dexter's reps are in the toilet, but not the clubs.
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  #119  
Old 02-11-2014, 1:23 PM
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I'm glad for threads like this. I'm not a member, but have an interest in these things because I shoot 3gun at WEGC. The reputation of the club is not diminished at all in my mind. Lipson's and Dexter's reps are in the toilet, but not the clubs.
We need gun owners/shooters like you to join and becoem membres and help manage and grow what may very well be the only game in town in the near future if the club can survive larry Lipson, Scott Dexter. I do not want to forget mentioning Larry's two other sycophants.... Steve mcCloskey and Jack Costello... both failed to win VP and Range Officer respectully as write in's recommended by Lipson and Dexter. I am sure they are equally culpable in this and I intend to make sure the membership knows those names as well.
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