Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > CONCEALED CARRY/LICENSE TO CARRY > Concealed Carry Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-29-2014, 2:57 PM
Jason95357 Jason95357 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 992
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default Legality of sign?

How legal is this sign? It is on the entrances to the City of Modesto / Stanislaus County downtown building at 1010 Tenth Street Place.

"Security Officers" are rent-a-cop kids who I wouldn't want to share my carry status or info with.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg uploadfromtaptalk1391039658626.jpg (38.0 KB, 650 views)
__________________
LTCs: WA, OR, NV, AZ, UT, FL, ME, CA
NRA Member
Madison Society Member
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-29-2014, 3:05 PM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is offline
short bus driver
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: the 909
Posts: 18,434
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-29-2014, 3:07 PM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is offline
short bus driver
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: the 909
Posts: 18,434
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Surprisingly, it has legal weight because it is posted an the entrance of a Gov owned/operated building. [PC 602(y)]

Failure to comply may result in a trespassing citation.
In addition, they can report you to your issuing agency in order to get your permit revoked.



Penal Code 602
Except as provided in subdivision (u), subdivision (v), subdivision (x), and Section 602.8, every person who willfully commits a trespass by any of the following acts is guilty of a misdemeanor:
(y) Except as permitted by federal law, intentionally avoiding submission to the screening and inspection of one's person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access when entering or reentering a courthouse or a city, county, city and county, or state building if entrances to the courthouse or the city, county, city and county, or state building have been posted with a statement providing reasonable notice that prosecution may result from a trespass described in this subdivision.
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).

Last edited by Quiet; 01-29-2014 at 3:09 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-29-2014, 3:13 PM
CSACANNONEER's Avatar
CSACANNONEER CSACANNONEER is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks
Posts: 40,169
iTrader: 125 / 100%
Blog Entries: 4
Default

Hell, they could legally declare it a GFZ. I think this sign is better than "no guns at all".
__________________
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun and Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor
California DOJ Certified Fingerprint Roller
Ventura County approved CCW Instructor


Offering low cost private basic shooting and reloading classes for calgunners.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-29-2014, 3:18 PM
eventhorizons eventhorizons is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Bernardino County High Desert
Posts: 104
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

So my question would be, what does this "Security Officer" do when you check in with them?

Do they make a note on a clipboard that "Joe Smith Entered at 1425, armed with a Colt 1911".

Do they refuse you entrance? That is not what I read from the sign.

It's not like you are going to let a rent-a-cop inspect your gun. What would they inspect if for anyway? "Yeeeup...Its a gun. And, gee, it's even loaded!"

Kind of dumb when you think about it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-29-2014, 3:33 PM
Quiet's Avatar
Quiet Quiet is offline
short bus driver
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: the 909
Posts: 18,434
iTrader: 10 / 100%
Default

Mostly like it so that they can confirm you have a valid carry permit and to notate it on their daily report (john smith entered at 1200 hrs with a handgun & has a permit).
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-29-2014, 3:44 PM
Jason95357 Jason95357 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 992
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Will follow up with an email to them to find out what occurs if a CCW holder wants to enter with a weapon.

What if they notify IA each time? What if someone always carries? Something to ask the IA I guess.
__________________
LTCs: WA, OR, NV, AZ, UT, FL, ME, CA
NRA Member
Madison Society Member
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-29-2014, 7:49 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,295
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
Will follow up with an email to them to find out what occurs if a CCW holder wants to enter with a weapon.

What if they notify IA each time? What if someone always carries? Something to ask the IA I guess.
Why not go there without a weapon and ask the questions?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-29-2014, 8:07 PM
BigL BigL is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 679
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

Depends. Please refer to penal code 26150.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by becciboo View Post
Why make it clear when there is an agency that can make up and enforce their own laws? Its one of those things where you need to make the personal decision as to whether you want to be right or free. Is it worth it to you?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-29-2014, 8:10 PM
BigL BigL is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 679
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Default

All they can do is ask you to leave if your carrying legally. That is if they find out your carrying. Trespassing is another issue. If that is a place of business not operated by the Govt and I had a choice to do business there or not i would just avoid it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by becciboo View Post
Why make it clear when there is an agency that can make up and enforce their own laws? Its one of those things where you need to make the personal decision as to whether you want to be right or free. Is it worth it to you?

Last edited by BigL; 01-29-2014 at 8:14 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-29-2014, 8:26 PM
Jason95357 Jason95357 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 992
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eventhorizons View Post
So my question would be, what does this "Security Officer" do when you check in with them?

Do they make a note on a clipboard that "Joe Smith Entered at 1425, armed with a Colt 1911".

Do they refuse you entrance? That is not what I read from the sign.

It's not like you are going to let a rent-a-cop inspect your gun. What would they inspect if for anyway? "Yeeeup...Its a gun. And, gee, it's even loaded!"

Kind of dumb when you think about it.
It is very dumb, actually. I went in and asked:

"If I have a permit and a weapon, what is the procedure?" They said they check the permit photograph to make sure it matches, and then you can go on in.

I asked if they write down the info or notify anyone, they said no.

How completely pointless is that? A criminal isn't going to notify them they have a weapon (and they have no metal detector or wands). All this does is set a legal CCW carrier up for a crime if they don't notice the sign (there are 6 doors to enter, and on a busy day, you might go on the far left door which doesn't have the sign).

It does nothing good whatsoever except "scare" those who legally carry, and potentially expose them to others who come in line behind them knowing and to rent-a-cops knowing.

I'll be bringing it up when I have time. I'm really swamped right now, but I see no reason for this except intimidation and/or clueless fear of guns.

Last edited by Jason95357; 01-29-2014 at 8:33 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-29-2014, 8:30 PM
Jason95357 Jason95357 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 992
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigL View Post
All they can do is ask you to leave if your carrying legally. That is if they find out your carrying. Trespassing is another issue. If that is a place of business not operated by the Govt and I had a choice to do business there or not i would just avoid it.
It is a City / County owned building (JPA, actually), so they can legally require you to check in with security per the CA PC they cite (and someone else quoted above).

If they had a local ordinance, could they then deny you entry? Otherwise, without a law about it, I don't see how you can deny me entry with my legally carried weapon into the public City Hall where I have to go to deal with city business.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-30-2014, 12:43 PM
mej16489 mej16489 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,918
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
"If I have a permit and a weapon, what is the procedure?" They said they check the permit photograph to make sure it matches, and then you can go on in.
lol, my LTC doesn't even have a photo on it. Its never had one so far as I can remember. Where the place is for a photo to be attached it says 'optional'
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-30-2014, 1:36 PM
Cali-Glock's Avatar
Cali-Glock Cali-Glock is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sierra Nevadas
Posts: 2,906
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
lol, my LTC doesn't even have a photo on it. Its never had one so far as I can remember. Where the place is for a photo to be attached it says 'optional'
Hmm what county? The DOJ permit style/format used by most counties has the persons picture.
__________________
1 Corinthians 2:2

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one." - Mal Reynolds

"Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games."- Ernest Hemingway
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-30-2014, 1:43 PM
Ritchie8719 Ritchie8719 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,434
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Default

No picture on my Mendo license. I guess they could live scan me again and compare the thumbprint.

I think I would choose the door without a sign and continue.
__________________
Tarn Helm, WTF???

My god, Bigger Hammer, dont you have jaywalkers to ticket?

bunny farts to flamethrowers
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-30-2014, 1:43 PM
leadstorm leadstorm is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 611
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default

My permit is issued in Kern County and has no provision for a photo. It's what's called the "rice paper" permit (form BOF 4501 with a revision date of11/08). It does have my thumb print on it.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-30-2014, 1:48 PM
Artema's Avatar
Artema Artema is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 3,841
iTrader: 20 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
It is very dumb, actually. I went in and asked:

"If I have a permit and a weapon, what is the procedure?" They said they check the permit photograph to make sure it matches, and then you can go on in.

I asked if they write down the info or notify anyone, they said no.

How completely pointless is that? A criminal isn't going to notify them they have a weapon (and they have no metal detector or wands). All this does is set a legal CCW carrier up for a crime if they don't notice the sign (there are 6 doors to enter, and on a busy day, you might go on the far left door which doesn't have the sign).

It does nothing good whatsoever except "scare" those who legally carry, and potentially expose them to others who come in line behind them knowing and to rent-a-cops knowing.

I'll be bringing it up when I have time. I'm really swamped right now, but I see no reason for this except intimidation and/or clueless fear of guns.
Laws and regulations on guns tend to be there simply to harass the legal users of them.
__________________
- SAAMI Pressure Specs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artema View Post
I'd go to the grocery store with polymer, and I'd go to war with steel.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-30-2014, 3:15 PM
mej16489 mej16489 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,918
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadstorm View Post
My permit is issued in Kern County and has no provision for a photo. It's what's called the "rice paper" permit (form BOF 4501 with a revision date of11/08). It does have my thumb print on it.
Its right below your signature on that form. "Photo (optional)"
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-30-2014, 5:44 PM
Connman Connman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Solano County
Posts: 431
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadstorm View Post
My permit is issued in Kern County and has no provision for a photo. It's what's called the "rice paper" permit (form BOF 4501 with a revision date of11/08). It does have my thumb print on it.
They could also check your DL to verify its you, compare with your CCW, i guess. I agree It is totally pointlless unless maybe they are thinking if there is a situation in the building they will know how many law abiding citizens with CCW are in the building??
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-30-2014, 8:27 PM
jdben92883 jdben92883 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Corona
Posts: 2,878
iTrader: 154 / 100%
Default

I don't see this as an affront on CCW holders. Based on the sign, the same requirement is made LOE. Basically if they see someone has a weapon that wasn't declared, they are a bad guy. I don't have a big problem with that.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Member
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-30-2014, 8:57 PM
Jason95357 Jason95357 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 992
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdben92883 View Post
I don't see this as an affront on CCW holders. Based on the sign, the same requirement is made LOE. Basically if they see someone has a weapon that wasn't declared, they are a bad guy. I don't have a big problem with that.
Wonder if it applies to undercover?

But unless they track you (which they claim they do not), what good is this doing?
__________________
LTCs: WA, OR, NV, AZ, UT, FL, ME, CA
NRA Member
Madison Society Member
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-31-2014, 7:51 AM
titan2 titan2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sacramento Area
Posts: 682
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
Wonder if it applies to undercover?

But unless they track you (which they claim they do not), what good is this doing?
It makes them 'FEEL GOOD'!!!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-31-2014, 7:58 AM
Zedrek's Avatar
Zedrek Zedrek is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 1,804
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by titan2 View Post
It makes them 'FEEL GOOD'!!!
^^^This. Just be glad they included LTC's. It's a government agency, it doesn't have to make sense.
__________________
My Zombie Apocalypse Collection
Bersa Thunder, Browning Buckmark Camper, Charles Daly 1911, Charter Arms Buldog Pug, Chinese SKS, Colt Double Eagle MK II Series 90 10mm, Egyptian Hakim 8mm, Heckler & Koch P2000SK, Kimber Eclipse Ultra II, Mossberg 500A Cruiser, Mossberg New Haven 600AT, Romanian M69 Trainer, Rossi Ranch Hand .44 Mag, Savage Arms Model 73, Smith & Wesson 1006 10mm, Smith & Wesson Sigma .40, Springfield Armory XD-40, Walther P1, Wyoming Arms Parker 10mm, Yugoslavian K98
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-31-2014, 8:06 AM
hermosabeach's Avatar
hermosabeach hermosabeach is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 9,619
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default Government Building

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Hell, they could legally declare it a GFZ. I think this sign is better than "no guns at all".
...entrances to the City of Modesto / Stanislaus County

I think the laws on CHL on Government Property might be different that Kroger
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-31-2014, 10:08 AM
mej16489 mej16489 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,918
iTrader: 3 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
...entrances to the City of Modesto / Stanislaus County

I think the laws on CHL on Government Property might be different that Kroger
For someone with a License to Carry, there is effectively no difference between a Kroger and a State/Local (non-fed) government building.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-31-2014, 2:58 PM
Old_Bald_Guy's Avatar
Old_Bald_Guy Old_Bald_Guy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: California
Posts: 2,487
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
For someone with a License to Carry, there is effectively no difference between a Kroger and a State/Local (non-fed) government building.
Sure there is, if that city or county has a local ordinance against it with no exemption for LTC. Yeah, that may be in conflict with the Penal Code, but unless one wants to be a test case, there is a very definite functional difference. I have no clue about Stanislaus Co. and the City of Modesto; I do know that both the City and County of Sacramento have such ordinances, as do many others.

Tangent: Unless the company's website is wrong, it looks like the nearest Kroger to Modesto is at 302 N Main Ave,
Brownwood, TX, which is about 1,300 miles from 95350.

EDIT: It's a decent assumption that Stanislaus Co. and the City of Modesto have exemptions for LTC, based on what the sign says, but applying this in a more general sense, many counties do NOT have that exemption.
__________________
“Every reform movement has a lunatic fringe.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

Last edited by Old_Bald_Guy; 02-01-2014 at 9:11 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-01-2014, 5:17 PM
Jason95357 Jason95357 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 992
iTrader: 5 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connman View Post
They could also check your DL to verify its you, compare with your CCW, i guess. I agree It is totally pointlless unless maybe they are thinking if there is a situation in the building they will know how many law abiding citizens with CCW are in the building??
Are there any laws saying a CCW holder has to carry any other (DL) ID on them beyond the CCW? Clearly it makes sense to have it on you, but just sayin'.
__________________
LTCs: WA, OR, NV, AZ, UT, FL, ME, CA
NRA Member
Madison Society Member
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-01-2014, 5:36 PM
Tincon's Avatar
Tincon Tincon is offline
Mortuus Ergo Invictus
CGN Contributor - Lifetime
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5,067
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
They said they check the permit photograph to make sure it matches, and then you can go on in.

I asked if they write down the info or notify anyone, they said no.
I think there is a real question as to whether that is or is not a "screening and inspection of one's person and accessible property," or just a log of activity and violation of privacy for no real reason. As with most things, there is no way to really know the legality until someone take a case through the various appellate courts (at least once).
__________________
My posts may contain general information related to the law, however, THEY ARE NOT LEGAL ADVICE AND I AM NOT A LAWYER. I recommend you consult a lawyer if you want legal advice. No attorney-client or confidential relationship exists or will be formed between myself and any other person on the basis of these posts. Pronouns I may use (such as "you" and "your") do NOT refer to any particular person under any circumstance.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-01-2014, 5:45 PM
Connman Connman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Solano County
Posts: 431
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
Are there any laws saying a CCW holder has to carry any other (DL) ID on them beyond the CCW? Clearly it makes sense to have it on you, but just sayin'.
It's not against the law to not carry photo ID, silly. I was merely suggesting a way they could check to make sure it is you if you do not have a photo on your CCW.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:14 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2016, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.