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  #1  
Old 08-26-2013, 7:47 AM
DX Shooter DX Shooter is offline
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Default Sovereign Citizens Planned to Kidnap Officers

Didn't see this discussed in the LEO forum. I wonder what kind of websites people like this get their inspiration from...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/23...idnap-torture/

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ent-kidnapping
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  #2  
Old 08-26-2013, 1:23 PM
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The tinfoil hat crowd here is probably a source for some. Considering I've read that members here would murder cops in the execution of lawful warrants and such, not too far a stretch.
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Old 08-26-2013, 4:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconis View Post
The tinfoil hat crowd here is probably a source for some. Considering I've read that members here would murder cops in the execution of lawful warrants and such, not too far a stretch.
Yep, there are many here working on dehumanizing LEO's already. Once you can safely feel that LEOs are inferior, it makes it easier to justify any actions that you want to take.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...8#post12158308
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:01 PM
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Um, they probably perused the OT forum here...
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CBR_rider View Post
Um, they probably perused the OT forum here...
For sure...I'm pretty sure they do.

Speaking of which...you all remember that computer programmer and firearm aficionado who, when stopped for an obstructed license plate, spontaneously murdered the CHP officer last September? Yeah...Sovereign Citizen.

Quote:
“Investigators found a large amount of literature on Libertarianism and the sovereign citizen movement,” the sheriff’s office summary statement said. Lacy, it added, “had strong views” about gun rights and didn’t “agree with the role of government.” “Lacy downloaded literature on sovereign citizen [beliefs],”
Sounds familiar...I wonder if any members here suddenly stopped posting on September 4th of last year....

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2013/0...tizen-beliefs/

Yeah...watch you back.

Last edited by IrishJoe3; 08-26-2013 at 11:33 PM..
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Old 08-27-2013, 9:54 AM
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There are many examples of how violent these people are but this is one chilling example.

Also, these guys will also wage "paper terrorism" on police and other government officials by filing bogus liens and other scams to harass, which are usually not discovered until you try to sell or refinance your home.

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  #7  
Old 08-27-2013, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconis View Post
The tinfoil hat crowd here is probably a source for some. Considering I've read that members here would murder cops in the execution of lawful warrants and such, not too far a stretch.
It's a vicious cycle really. Increase in hostility towards LE by certain members of the public causes push-back from LE, which in turn causes more hostility from the public. Turns into some quasi Robin Hood BS, but intend of stealing taxes, they're plotting to off LEOs. But how do you fix that? I'm not sure.

Working in a small town and living in the jurisdiction which I work, I have to be a proponent of community policing. The chances are very high that I am going to run into these people off duty. I hope that if I am respectful with them on duty then when/if I do run into them off-duty, they remember that.

At the same time, however, when I'm off duty, I'm not going just assume that because I was nice to someone that they are going to leave me be.
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Old 08-27-2013, 1:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Falconis View Post
The tinfoil hat crowd here is probably a source for some. Considering I've read that members here would murder cops in the execution of lawful warrants and such, not too far a stretch.
Define "lawful".
If and when LEOs are attempting to deny people their Constitutionall rights who have a lawful right to firearms and are not a prohibited person which is guaranteed by the constitution then they have a right to protect themselves and their constitutional rights wouldn't you think and therfore would not be termed a murderer.
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Old 08-27-2013, 1:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nastyhabts26 View Post
Define "lawful".
If and when LEOs are attempting to deny people their Constitutionall rights who have a lawful right to firearms and are not a prohibited person which is guaranteed by the constitution then they have a right to protect themselves and their constitutional rights wouldn't you think and therfore would not be termed a murderer.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you aren't some goof who thinks there are no limitations on the second ammendment. So perhaps you could cite an example of where law enforcement, with a warrant signed by a judge, would be "denying" someone's constitutional rights.
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Old 08-27-2013, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesmoke9 View Post
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume you aren't some goof who thinks there are no limitations on the second ammendment. So perhaps you could cite an example of where law enforcement, with a warrant signed by a judge, would be "denying" someone's constitutional rights.
The benefit of the doubt taken and know this I'm not a cop basher.
I have several relatives who are now or have been LEOS up to and including the US Marshall for the state of South Dakota.
What most tin foiled hat wearing people in here are talking about our government deciding to revoke the 2nd amendment and taking our right to keep and bear arms.
If and when this happens I wouldn't blame anyone for fighting for their rights, up and including lethal force against any one trying to take their firearms, property, liberty or life.
My self I would probably surrender my arms, at least the ones I couldn't hide and give the offending officers a thorough tongue lashing.
I believe most people would do the same.
I have no problem with LEOS gathering up all the weapons in the possession of a prohibited person, you do the crime, you do the time.
Maybe I read OP's thread wrong, but it looked to me citing all the tin foilers that he has an issue with people fighting for their civil rights.
If I'm wrong I apologise, if I'm right them I stand by my statements.
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Old 08-27-2013, 2:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyhabts26 View Post
The benefit of the doubt taken and know this I'm not a cop basher.
I have several relatives who are now or have been LEOS up to and including the US Marshall for the state of South Dakota.
What most tin foiled hat wearing people in here are talking about our government deciding to revoke the 2nd amendment and taking our right to keep and bear arms.
If and when this happens I wouldn't blame anyone for fighting for their rights, up and including lethal force against any one trying to take their firearms, property, liberty or life.
My self I would probably surrender my arms, at least the ones I couldn't hide and give the offending officers a thorough tongue lashing.
I believe most people would do the same.
I have no problem with LEOS gathering up all the weapons in the possession of a prohibited person, you do the crime, you do the time.
Maybe I read OP's thread wrong, but it looked to me citing all the tin foilers that he has an issue with people fighting for their civil rights.
If I'm wrong I apologise, if I'm right them I stand by my statements.
In the context of the OP, the tinfoil hat crowd is not necessarily the guy who has some strong beliefs in the Second Amendment. The Sovereign Citizen movement is about far more that just gun rights. They are extremely dangerous in many respects. If it gives you some perspective, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were followers of the movement.
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  #12  
Old 08-27-2013, 3:20 PM
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The Sovereign Citizen movement, bunch of crazies they are.
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  #13  
Old 08-27-2013, 6:05 PM
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That video gives me chills. Be safe and watch your six.
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  #14  
Old 08-27-2013, 6:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyhabts26 View Post
The benefit of the doubt taken and know this I'm not a cop basher.
I have several relatives who are now or have been LEOS up to and including the US Marshall for the state of South Dakota.
What most tin foiled hat wearing people in here are talking about our government deciding to revoke the 2nd amendment and taking our right to keep and bear arms.
If and when this happens I wouldn't blame anyone for fighting for their rights, up and including lethal force against any one trying to take their firearms, property, liberty or life.
My self I would probably surrender my arms, at least the ones I couldn't hide and give the offending officers a thorough tongue lashing.
I believe most people would do the same.
I have no problem with LEOS gathering up all the weapons in the possession of a prohibited person, you do the crime, you do the time.
Maybe I read OP's thread wrong, but it looked to me citing all the tin foilers that he has an issue with people fighting for their civil rights.
If I'm wrong I apologise, if I'm right them I stand by my statements.
The tinfoil hats here talk about shooting first and asking questions later during the service of lawful warrants because they don't like the way the cops dress or the tactics that they use and seem to be under the impression that almost every warrant is a no-knock warrant being served by government agents there to suppress their rights. Some of them have actually suggested that police should have to "phone ahead of time" to notify the subject of the warrant that they are coming.
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  #15  
Old 08-27-2013, 7:28 PM
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Nastyhabts,
Sovereign Citizens are a very "special" group of people who, unfortunately, seem to share disturbing viewpoints with some members of this site. And none of those disturbing viewpoints are a shared love of firearms...
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Old 08-27-2013, 8:32 PM
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Well heck who but the antis dont love firearms??!!
I agree that nut balls need to be taken down.
Anyone who talks about kidnapping or murdering any one needs to go away forever,, unless they are after Honey Boo-Boo then it's ok.
Should have had Honey Boo-Boo on shark week.
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  #17  
Old 08-27-2013, 10:20 PM
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Those psychos I think watched too many reruns of Quientin Tarantino's "Reservoir Dogs" (where the cops gets kidnapped and tortured).

I wish someone would "try" to do that to me!!!! I'd get rich with a book and movie deal on how the tables were turned on them!!!! Lol.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:44 AM
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The NCRIC does alot of informational training on Sovereigns. These can be very dangerous people when confronted by LE. One of the Officers in that video that was murdered, his father was the Chief of Police when that happened. Those dirtbag sovereigns were in California months earlier giving a presentation on being a sovereign. I would highly recommend any LEO to take the TLO I course from NCRIC.
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  #19  
Old 08-28-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by TrailerparkTrash View Post

I wish someone would "try" to do that to me!!!! I'd get rich with a book and movie deal on how the tables were turned on them!!!! Lol.
No you wouldn't. MOST civilian gun owners are FAR more qualified to carry a firearm and are much better trained that you are.

Just ask OT.

/end sarcasm
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyhabts26 View Post
Well heck who but the antis dont love firearms??!!
I agree that nut balls need to be taken down.
Anyone who talks about kidnapping or murdering any one needs to go away forever,, unless they are after Honey Boo-Boo then it's ok.
Should have had Honey Boo-Boo on shark week.
Going back to your first post, I don't see a lot of immediate danger to gun rights in the country as a whole. I believe 45 states have some degree of legal open carry and 37 I think are acually shall-issue states for concealed carry. Even our anti-gun president knew trying to re-new an assault weapons ban was a waste of time when significant numbers of democrats opposed it. In my opinion, what gun owners should be more concerned about is being prosecuted for using a gun to protect themselves. The state of Florida, motivated to a great degree by politics, went after George Zimmerman very hard. That scares me a lot more than some gun confiscation conspiracy theory.
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Old 08-28-2013, 8:34 PM
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Why does lawful have to be defined at this time.
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Old 08-29-2013, 1:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nastyhabts26 View Post
Well heck who but the antis dont love firearms??!!
I agree that nut balls need to be taken down.
Anyone who talks about kidnapping or murdering any one needs to go away forever,, unless they are after Honey Boo-Boo then it's ok.
Should have had Honey Boo-Boo on shark week.
Now that's just mean.... for the shark.
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  #23  
Old 09-03-2013, 6:24 PM
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  #24  
Old 09-03-2013, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TRICKSTER View Post
The tinfoil hats here talk about shooting first and asking questions later during the service of lawful warrants because they don't like the way the cops dress or the tactics that they use and seem to be under the impression that almost every warrant is a no-knock warrant being served by government agents there to suppress their rights. Some of them have actually suggested that police should have to "phone ahead of time" to notify the subject of the warrant that they are coming.
In all honesty I think about this from time to time. While I am not a LEO, I am not a cop basher and sometimes I can and do get carried away, but it is all in fun. HOWEVER, with that said, you should consider the other side of your argument. I know because I was a CEO and once I was inside a house or on a property and did not like something that I had seen, it only took a phone call to get backup and more friends there to bust that place wide open. I only did that to one or two people my entire 12 years as a CEO, but consider this; the next time I get cop knocked at 2:30 in the morning and someone says that they have a warrant and they are there to arrest me, I have some decisions to make, are these really cops or is this just a home invasion (because they DO happen). If they are police then they should have a warrant but what will happen when I open that door? Warrant or not I am getting invaded and since I am not doing anything illegal and I can not see ANY logical reason why I would have a party of two or three guys on my doorstep then I have to decide to shoot and defend or not shoot and possibly become a victim.
Then there is the youtube videos that I have seen a few of where even nice dogs might get shot. We love our two dogs to death and we would be very upset if they were shot in our house, that could all snowball into something worse.
Then there is the contraband thing. Yes, folks we all know what that is. Hey that looks like an assault weapon! We will take it for evidence, but no, it is an unregistered ak pistol that I built and did not get around to registering because I had not put any serial numbers on it. Well some folks might call that illegal when it is not. Who am I to argue? Just your average guy now who has too many toys leftover from when he had a job. Might I see that back? Probably not since RPD made me show receipts to get my last guns back to prove that they were mine. Hey they were taken from my house in the first place and none of them were stolen. Yet I had to file motions to get them back. There was nothing illegal about them.

I can only hope that RPD would serve a warrant in a lawful manner and to me that means handing me the paperwork and waiting for a few minutes while I call them at their published number and verifying or dialing 911 and asking for RPD to show up. If they attempt to enter the house while I am on the phone or verifying things then that would send up red flags to me because they had no reason to do that. Let's supposed they kick in the wrong door and wake me up and for whatever reason happen to start a fight in the house. Great, now I am the bad guy automatically because I might have shot one or two or at them in defense of my life and thinking that I am in a home invasion scenario now. Things will not end well for ME no matter what if they are real cops, and things might not end well for me if they are not cops but indeed really robbers.

With the way that this world is going and the news and social media and the internets giving us all of this information, it is no wonder that more people don't die from exploding heads.

And yes, If you meet me in real life you would think I was a totally cool guy, maybe a bit sarcastic at times, but a cool guy that knows a few things and is cool to hang with.

I can not help but have these thoughts though because I have already been exposed to these awful stories and videos. They are with me forever. And the last time I was cop knocked the two that did the knocking were totally cool and I felt like they were friendly enough to let inside so I was hospitable to them (but the lights stayed off cause I did not want to wake anyone up) and even though they saw some things that I had out and they started asking if they were assault weapons, a simple no sufficed and they were soon on their way and all because the rain made my line dial 911... That was a great contact and I really appreciate it, but I was told by others that it could have gone a different way.

So what are we to do? It seems like any more police show up at my house and I could be in a catch-22... I have made up my mind that if they are professional then that is how I will treat them, but if they kick in the doors and there is no logical explanation for that kind of treatment, that they might not be police and they might be okay to open fire on (while I try to dial 911 as well).

So ya see, that is just the way that it is with some folks. I never want to fire on a LEO but I hope that any that would pay me a visit would continue to have that same attitude of me.

Sorry for the wall, I saw a lot of haters in OT and I agree, that place is foul, then I lost access to it because someone did not like my picz and when I came here to ask a simple question, I saw that it was read 78 times, but maybe I was blacklisted here for some reason because there was one or two replies and they were not as detailed as I had hoped, but hey they put my mind at ease along with what I heard today. And then I see this thread and I see forum folks here talking smack on other calgunners. I get it, there will always be sides. It is sad that even as a gun community things are like this, but oh well. I can't fix it so I will just install networks for folks instead and hope for a better tomorrow.
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  #25  
Old 09-04-2013, 5:35 AM
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Originally Posted by stilly View Post
In all honesty I think about this from time to time. While I am not a LEO, I am not a cop basher and sometimes I can and do get carried away, but it is all in fun. HOWEVER, with that said, you should consider the other side of your argument. I know because I was a CEO and once I was inside a house or on a property and did not like something that I had seen, it only took a phone call to get backup and more friends there to bust that place wide open. I only did that to one or two people my entire 12 years as a CEO, but consider this; the next time I get cop knocked at 2:30 in the morning and someone says that they have a warrant and they are there to arrest me, I have some decisions to make, are these really cops or is this just a home invasion (because they DO happen). If they are police then they should have a warrant but what will happen when I open that door? Warrant or not I am getting invaded and since I am not doing anything illegal and I can not see ANY logical reason why I would have a party of two or three guys on my doorstep then I have to decide to shoot and defend or not shoot and possibly become a victim.
Then there is the youtube videos that I have seen a few of where even nice dogs might get shot. We love our two dogs to death and we would be very upset if they were shot in our house, that could all snowball into something worse.
Then there is the contraband thing. Yes, folks we all know what that is. Hey that looks like an assault weapon! We will take it for evidence, but no, it is an unregistered ak pistol that I built and did not get around to registering because I had not put any serial numbers on it. Well some folks might call that illegal when it is not. Who am I to argue? Just your average guy now who has too many toys leftover from when he had a job. Might I see that back? Probably not since RPD made me show receipts to get my last guns back to prove that they were mine. Hey they were taken from my house in the first place and none of them were stolen. Yet I had to file motions to get them back. There was nothing illegal about them.

I can only hope that RPD would serve a warrant in a lawful manner and to me that means handing me the paperwork and waiting for a few minutes while I call them at their published number and verifying or dialing 911 and asking for RPD to show up. If they attempt to enter the house while I am on the phone or verifying things then that would send up red flags to me because they had no reason to do that. Let's supposed they kick in the wrong door and wake me up and for whatever reason happen to start a fight in the house. Great, now I am the bad guy automatically because I might have shot one or two or at them in defense of my life and thinking that I am in a home invasion scenario now. Things will not end well for ME no matter what if they are real cops, and things might not end well for me if they are not cops but indeed really robbers.

With the way that this world is going and the news and social media and the internets giving us all of this information, it is no wonder that more people don't die from exploding heads.

And yes, If you meet me in real life you would think I was a totally cool guy, maybe a bit sarcastic at times, but a cool guy that knows a few things and is cool to hang with.

I can not help but have these thoughts though because I have already been exposed to these awful stories and videos. They are with me forever. And the last time I was cop knocked the two that did the knocking were totally cool and I felt like they were friendly enough to let inside so I was hospitable to them (but the lights stayed off cause I did not want to wake anyone up) and even though they saw some things that I had out and they started asking if they were assault weapons, a simple no sufficed and they were soon on their way and all because the rain made my line dial 911... That was a great contact and I really appreciate it, but I was told by others that it could have gone a different way.

So what are we to do? It seems like any more police show up at my house and I could be in a catch-22... I have made up my mind that if they are professional then that is how I will treat them, but if they kick in the doors and there is no logical explanation for that kind of treatment, that they might not be police and they might be okay to open fire on (while I try to dial 911 as well).

So ya see, that is just the way that it is with some folks. I never want to fire on a LEO but I hope that any that would pay me a visit would continue to have that same attitude of me.

Sorry for the wall, I saw a lot of haters in OT and I agree, that place is foul, then I lost access to it because someone did not like my picz and when I came here to ask a simple question, I saw that it was read 78 times, but maybe I was blacklisted here for some reason because there was one or two replies and they were not as detailed as I had hoped, but hey they put my mind at ease along with what I heard today. And then I see this thread and I see forum folks here talking smack on other calgunners. I get it, there will always be sides. It is sad that even as a gun community things are like this, but oh well. I can't fix it so I will just install networks for folks instead and hope for a better tomorrow.

I actually share a majority of your concerns
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Old 09-04-2013, 9:04 AM
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Originally Posted by omgwtfbbq View Post
It's a vicious cycle really. Increase in hostility towards LE by certain members of the public causes push-back from LE, which in turn causes more hostility from the public. Turns into some quasi Robin Hood BS, but intend of stealing taxes, they're plotting to off LEOs. But how do you fix that? I'm not sure.

Working in a small town and living in the jurisdiction which I work, I have to be a proponent of community policing. The chances are very high that I am going to run into these people off duty. I hope that if I am respectful with them on duty then when/if I do run into them off-duty, they remember that.

At the same time, however, when I'm off duty, I'm not going just assume that because I was nice to someone that they are going to leave me be.

I wouldn't count on it. They seem to make it a point to attack LE no matter the circumstance.
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Old 09-04-2013, 4:16 PM
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Sovereigns are extremely dangerous, and are dealt with accordingly: with extreme caution and tact. I've taken a few courses through JRIC, and these nut jobs always are a big topic.

Also, most of my fellow LEO's are members of Oathkeeper's, and staunch conservatives. You do the math.
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