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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #1  
Old 06-28-2013, 8:23 AM
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Default 3rd world survival = 1st world shtf ?

http://www.deathvalleymag.com/2013/0...-the-5-things/
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Old 06-28-2013, 9:34 AM
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Interesting read. Thanks.
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Old 06-28-2013, 9:54 AM
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Well really, what is the author recommending? Lay down and die? I wouldn't call it a useful blog.

ETA:

I've never heard ANYONE other than Bear Grylls advocate drinking their own urine.
I've never heard ANYONE advocate eating cat food or other humans. Though catfood or dogfood is better than no food.

Roadblocks: bypass if you can or destroy them if you have to. Not a hard one.

Bug out on foot: I think most of us here have figured out it is better/easier to drive as far as we can until we have no other option but to go on foot. I will say that you (assuming you are the head of the household) should be able to hike three miles with a moderate pack, weapon and combat load. If you don't think you can then your options are very limited.

He does sound like a know-it-all blowhard, reminds of someone who used to frequent here.
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Last edited by Stan08; 06-28-2013 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:02 AM
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I'm confused.

So people actually plan on drinking their own piss, eat catfood or become cannibals?

I have no idea what the author is trying to say. Instead I'd rather have the last 2 minutes of my life back.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:12 AM
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Kind of pointless to read that.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:51 AM
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Well, I agree with one thing -- it is possible that after a specific SHTF event, the 1st world could be like the current 3rd world.

Apart from that, he comes across as a blowhard who is far too full of himself for having been to Indo. He also contradicts himself: first he says:

Quote:
During the Jakarta, Indonesia Riots in 1998 people could not even make it 3 blocks without running into a homemade roadblock manned by a group of knife and club-wielding thugs looking to strip them of everything,
then he says:

Quote:
During the Jakarta riots, thousands of Chinese tried to hunker down in their houses and apartments. No matter how well fortified or heavily armed they were eventually the human waves of rioters broke in and raped, robed and/or killed them.
So which is it? Are the road blocks infinitely powerful and no force can travel more than 3 blocks, or are the waves of people the irresistible force that nothing can stop?

"Buying booze on the black market in Indonesia" LMAO! Is that supposed to be hard? Because, ummm, it's legal pretty much everywhere except in one or maybe two of the craziest muslim areas where nobody wants to go anyways (all the serious finance / commerce / business areas are far from there, all the best tourist areas are far from there, all the best waves are far away, all the significant industry is far away, it's as if someone said you it's hard to get alcohol in Riverside...well, who cares?)....hop on a puddle jumper for 30 minutes and you're back in a 100% legal bar doing Stoli shots.

Yup, dude is a keyboard commando of the 1st degree
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:59 AM
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Not pointless, it basically tells you what is going to happen to most urban dwellers with the lack of a operating government.

Things are going to get ugly. With the amount of firearms that are present in the USA the spike in violence short term we be immeasurable. It will take about a year for things to just begin to sort it's self out.

Natural disasters will be very localized and functioning government will be able to bring enough resources to bear to keep a lid on things.

They don't call them third world countries for nothing.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:02 AM
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What I got from it, which I already knew. A theory is just that until tested. So all the BOB and survival talk is useless until you put it to the test. I have seen a few people say, take your BOB camping and see how long you can live from it.

If you want a fictional SHTF scenario, watch the short lived series Jericho.
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
Apart from that, he comes across as a blowhard who is far too full of himself for having been to Indo. ...Yup, dude is a keyboard commando of the 1st degree
He does sound like a know-it-all blowhard, reminds of someone who used to frequent here.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:49 PM
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it's an article on logic versus theory. any situation has it's own problems and solving. its saying what has worked in 3rd world lands and their shtf lawlessness and lack of resources. I may not agree with the entire article and this is america, but it does embrace that our fantasy shtf scenario answers are nothing but a theory of survival. I agree a molotov is all thats needed to weed us out of our homes if we stay inside. so a response to prevent that is a neighborhood that bands together and shares resources to defend against people without morals and order. personally bugging out is a last resort when everything else breaks down due to carrying many things that can make us a target. objectively its talking in that scenario of survival as if there is no government left. so the most answer is creating a group of governance. sharing food, ammo (yes our precious), medicine, and having roles for everyone either be protection, or cooking etc. he sounds confused on bugging out and getting robbed or getting burned in the house. I don't think he's a blow but an against the grain thinker that we can just put our battle vest, food and such in a closet and think we're ready. depends on situation. what good is 1000 rds if a whole mob comes. better to share and have teamwork to suppress. each individuals skills, knowledge, and survival belongings can benefit people in a group. I know a fellow calgunner will always be a friend in need. 99% are good people.
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  #11  
Old 06-28-2013, 2:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan08 View Post
He does sound like a know-it-all blowhard, reminds of someone who used to frequent here.
I wonder who that is. LOL
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Old 06-28-2013, 9:39 PM
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He spins a good tale and perhaps he's the real deal but he's got his context wrong. I've traveled extensively around the world. Not as an operator but a businessman. Had bodyguards to take care of me in some of the dicier places but none could qualify has hard-core third world situations that he mentions in his life experiences. But not far from it at times either.

The point is that we're not likely to slip to the levels that he cites, if for no other reason that we're starting from a different point. The fact that that nut bomb was eating spiders since he was a kid separates most of N. America from those spots. So that when disaster strikes, we're unlikely to end up like our African, Asian or mid-East counterparts. At least not very quickly. But we're getting there.

The real thing he's omitting but that only experienced travelers see is how far our country has slipped from first world to somewhere lower than that. Head to parts of Germany, Singapore, Japan, many others and you'll quickly see that what we think of as U.S. leadership is really just a giant Walmart, Penney's or Dollar General compared to the qualify of life, progressive technology in all walks of life, health care, roads and other infrastructure of many advanced countries worldwide. Hell, life in Novosibirsk, Siberia is more refined than Newark or New Orleans for that matter.

We don't need a massive fan-hitting moment to turn this country upside down. Just wait another generation or two and no amount of INCH or bug-out bag will enable you to find a good place to rebuild.

The money some spend on 'preps' is better spent on any other means to ensure that our country doesn't slip down yet another rung of world despair. You can't know by staying in your home town, traveling inside our country, or watching the Discovery channel. And you can't run from it when it's everywhere.

Grading on a curve, stuff has already hit the fan.

B

Last edited by B!ngo; 06-28-2013 at 9:43 PM..
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  #13  
Old 06-28-2013, 9:47 PM
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I call BS on the man he saw eating cat food in Cambodia. Nobody there has cat food. Cats there just eat mice & scraps.

I didn't see much useful advice about things that do work.
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  #14  
Old 06-28-2013, 10:00 PM
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What did I learn from the article? You can't win, might as well quit, roll over and surrender.


FTS!
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:24 PM
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waste of reading time.
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Old 06-29-2013, 12:00 AM
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The simplest 3rd world solution to a 1st world SHTF scenario is also the oldest solution; strength in numbers. When people band together, it reduces the grief they receive from others, increases the labor force, and pools together more resources, skills, and knowledge. If you want to prepare for when the SHTF, prepare with a group, whether it's just friends and family, or all of your neighbors. I'm no expert, but it seems like a no brainer. Build a community and you build strength.
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Old 06-29-2013, 8:53 AM
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And for the #1 solution to leaving a 3rd world situation...a passport, a plane ticket, and a bunch of money in an overseas account.
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Old 06-29-2013, 9:31 AM
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bug out on foot if you don't have a bike
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Old 06-29-2013, 3:25 PM
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I think a positive spin on the article is to challenge our assumptions. There is no one size fits all plan for all scenarios. One should have a variety of skills and supplies and always be ready to shift to Plan B,C or D.
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Old 06-29-2013, 7:19 PM
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This is a way better read:

http://shtfschool.com/page/7/
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Old 06-29-2013, 8:25 PM
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This is a way better read:

http://shtfschool.com/page/7/
Thanks for posting this. I read it over a year ago but lost track of where. It is well worth re-reading.

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Old 06-29-2013, 9:41 PM
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They don't call them third world countries for nothing.

They call them third world countries because the think third world means undeveloped.

Cold War terminology
1st world = US and our allies
2nd world = Soviets and their allies
3rd world = unallied with 1 or 2

If the writer was really operating in the capacity he says, he would probably not call them third world.
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Old 06-30-2013, 12:21 AM
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Myself and my family have spent considerable time in several third world countries for our church, so have all my children. The very last thing you ever want to see is anywhere there is a non working government or one that is persecuting the people that live there. Life has little or no value to most people there.

It is what brings me nightmares. I pray it never happens here.
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Old 06-30-2013, 9:13 AM
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Originally Posted by B!ngo View Post
The real thing he's omitting but that only experienced travelers see is how far our country has slipped from first world to somewhere lower than that. Head to parts of Germany, Singapore, Japan, many others and you'll quickly see that what we think of as U.S. leadership is really just a giant Walmart, Penney's or Dollar General compared to the qualify of life, progressive technology in all walks of life, health care, roads and other infrastructure of many advanced countries worldwide. Hell, life in Novosibirsk, Siberia is more refined than Newark or New Orleans for that matter.
Agree with much of your post but can't go with this characterization. The US has clearly slipped from its peak viewed from some perspectives, but your characterization is not justified by the facts. Look at these examples:

1) Education. The richest & most powerful people in the entire world (I'm talking titans of industry, royalty, oil sheiks, etc) send their children to America to attend our universities. The best and brightest of the lower classes (IOW, the smartest kids whose parents aren't rich / powerful) from other countries try their hardest to get into our universities, and the graduate programs of many of our best universities are profitable because these foreigners pay full fare gladly. MIT, CalTech, Harvard, et al -- these have no equal anywhere on the planet.

2) Finance. New York City, admittedly to a lesser degree than ever before, it still the leading financial city in the world. I agree it's no longer worthy of being called the financial capital of the world, but it is still arguably in the #1 spot (depending on your source, you'll get NYC, London and Tokyo, but more sources still point to NYC). And keep in mind, many of the studies which point to London or Tokyo as having moved into a tie or gone slightly ahead of NYC have two flaws:
a) They were done during the recent Great Recession
b) They measure "soft metrics" such as growth rate and "innovation", which don't actually equate to dollars in their markets, but some belief that their futures are rosier.

More than NYC, the US economy in general is still the world's largest by a ridiculous margin. Our GDP is twice that of China. No, the world still follows where the US leads, because our market is the largest and the safest (even though we clearly aren't perfect).

3) Health Care. The US has it's warts, but reading between the lines it's clear we're still at or very close to the world's best in this area. Why would I say that, when the US is pretty far down the list (of developed nations) for things like life expectancy, STDs, heart and lung disease, adolescent pregnancies, etc, etc? Because a large proportion of health outcomes and early mortality has nothing to do with medical care, but is the result of poor lifestyle choices such as drug and alcohol abuse, and an environment that tends to favor travel by automobile over exercise, and poor dietary habits.

IOW, we're a nation of junk-food-eating, binge-drinking, drug-abusing sex junkies, and no health care system in the world can stop people like us from killing ourselves. So to find the truth, you have to adjust the numbers for heath outcomes related to lifestyle choices. That quickly shows a nation that is right in line with all the other top countries.

If you control, for example, life expectancy numbers for homicides, accidents, poor diet, and lack of exercise, we're among the world's best in life expectancy. If Americans want freedoms (including the freedom to be fat and lazy, which leads to lots of health problems), we have to be prepared for the consequences. But let's be clear -- these are consequences of choice, not arising from poor health care in any way.


I could go on and on. The bottom line is: a little examination and any reasonable person can see the US clearly still leads the first world, or is near the top, in all significant categories. Where we're headed is another matter, and that's why we prep...
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Old 06-30-2013, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derakk View Post
The simplest 3rd world solution to a 1st world SHTF scenario is also the oldest solution; strength in numbers. When people band together, it reduces the grief they receive from others, increases the labor force, and pools together more resources, skills, and knowledge. If you want to prepare for when the SHTF, prepare with a group, whether it's just friends and family, or all of your neighbors. I'm no expert, but it seems like a no brainer. Build a community and you build strength.
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Old 06-30-2013, 9:10 PM
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The article is generally alarmist. Millions if not billions of people make it through life just fine in 3rd World (or whatever you prefer to call them) countries every day. The people who suffer most in these places are the poor. Outside of a few hot spots, a person can live quite nicely with a few dollars.
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Old 07-01-2013, 2:26 AM
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The very last thing you ever want to see is anywhere there is a non working government or one that is persecuting the people that live there. Life has little or no value to most people there.
I am most definitely *not* a bad **er like that guy who wrote the article but now that you mention it, I have been to countries where I shared a bus stop with a dead body that nobody seemed very concerned about, and the government did happen to be accurately charged with genocide against an unpopular segment of the population.

You should see when armored cars pick up cash from businesses. Half a dozen *very* nervous guys with AKs and body armor make the pickup, and soldiers or guards armed with M16s or shotguns outside every business like Pizza Hut or Applebees LOL!

Funny, I never even thought of that experience being useful in any way but who knows, maybe.

Honestly, the relatively lawless areas I've been in, where even children are armed and killers(hillside favelas), they're not as bad as you might think, although rough. Culture doesn't exactly flourish, though, but without police you basically just are responsible for your own protection and neighborhoods look out for each other to a lesser or greater degree. Police don't serve much except as torturers or extortionists.

Who's dumb enough to rob a market where every person in a stall has a gun? Try to stiff a cab driver in some nations and you're likely to get beaten to death by locals. Harsh to some, but it sure does keep order! That's what happens when there's no functioning "justice" system.

I'm rambling. Give me dangerous freedom over safe tyranny any day.
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Old 07-01-2013, 2:28 PM
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Yeah, the article wasn't very good or very useful, but I think his general point, is that there are a lot of people out there who think they will be fine in a SHTF situation, when they haven't actually done any real prepping.

Even on forums like this, people tend to focus on guns, and say things like, "I will just use my gun to take the things I need." Or thinking they are prepared, because they bought a backpack full of MREs. Having those things are better than nothing, but a lot of people just assume they will be ok, when they haven't actually thought about all of the things they might be up against.
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Old 07-01-2013, 2:45 PM
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You can read a lot of first hand accounts of people who have survived all sorts of political turmoil, whether in the past (WW2, Cambodia etc.) or more recently in Africa and elsewhere. What I notice many of them have in common is ability to think fast, talk fast and keep on moving to safety.
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Old 07-01-2013, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by speedrrracer View Post
. .....3) Health Care. The US has it's warts, but reading between the lines it's clear we're still at or very close to the world's best in this area. Why would I say that, when the US is pretty far down the list (of developed nations) for things like life expectancy, STDs, heart and lung disease, adolescent pregnancies, etc, etc? Because a large proportion of health outcomes and early mortality has nothing to do with medical care, but is the result of poor lifestyle choices such as drug and alcohol abuse, and an environment that tends to favor travel by automobile over exercise, and poor dietary habits.

IOW, we're a nation of junk-food-eating, binge-drinking, drug-abusing sex junkies, and no health care system in the world can stop people like us from killing ourselves. So to find the truth, you have to adjust the numbers for heath outcomes related to lifestyle choices. That quickly shows a nation that is right in line with all the other top countries.

If you control, for example, life expectancy numbers for homicides, accidents, poor diet, and lack of exercise, we're among the world's best in life expectancy. If Americans want freedoms (including the freedom to be fat and lazy, which leads to lots of health problems), we have to be prepared for the consequences. But let's be clear -- these are consequences of choice, not arising from poor health care in any way......
I think it says a LOT when Canadians (with a fully socialized medical system, like the Dems want here) need serious care, they spend real dollars to get it in America.
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Old 07-01-2013, 3:07 PM
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I get what the guy is saying about a lot of peppers. There are a ton of crises where a big backpack and an AR-15 won't help you.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:41 AM
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We already have SHTF accounts. Florida and hurricane Andrew. Yes there was looting but lots of citizens (they're not civilians they're citizens) joined together and established patrols and what not.

Hurricane Katrina. Well the government came in and confiscated guns and thousands sat and whined and died waiting for the government.

New York and hurricane sandy. Government failed big time but here wasn't massive chaos.

We won't see third world scenarios because we're not a third world nation. The reason we're not a third world nation is because we don't have third world nation culture. Ok. Now I'm a racist or bigot or at the least culturally insensitive. But here's the thing.

De Tocqueville noticed that what made America great was the ideas and culture, that we functioned rather well with government almost non existent. He decried the French Revolution because it was democracy without the ideas and customs. Left without that it descended into tyranny.

Some of our urban areas are damn near third world. I go Into into LA sometimes and think I'm in Guadalajara. But the overwhelming majority of Americans and the overwhelming areas would not turn into Jakarta or Baghdad. We're not that way.

I recall reading once that poverty isn't a lack of money but a result of poverty of values. The society we have is not because of our government but in many ways despite it. We'll most likely not become a third world after some disaster or whatever. Even when he US government goes into financial collapse. And yes, it's only a few years away. No, that isn't in our cultural DNA.

Most communities will be fine. They'll assemble citizen patrols and keep out roving bandits and what not. The question remains only of he remnants of the federal and state police forces. That's my biggest fear
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  #33  
Old 07-02-2013, 12:50 PM
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Stupid article filled with a lot of speculation (Like you can't survive on cat food because you can't keep it down?). I've never heard preppers say they will do this.. but I've seen TV shows with tons of people who eat cat and dog food every day.. because they like it. Weird? Yes totally.. but come on, its not like you're eating a putrid pig that's been rotting in the sun for a week and covered in maggots. I'd be willing to bet it shares a lot of ingredients with canned corned beef hash and other canned meats, the **** I feed my dogs smells EXACTLY like corned beef hash in a can. I'm pretty sure I've eaten sushi that tastes a hell of a lot worse than canned meat.

Point being, most of the crap in his article is completely circumstantial. Who knows if you can walk down the street during a riot unless you're actually in the situation. It could be that your house is located in a secluded area where you can easily sneak away. Could be that the focus is elsewhere and you can make your way down the street to a safer path. Everyone can't be in the epicenter.

And then black markets? Really? Who the fck even knows where to find a "black market"? More than likely you are going to come across another group that is in the same condition you are and you may strike a barter. If that group happens to be hostile, you've come across them either way and the results would be the same if you planned to trade or not. If you actually go out in search of a "black market" in any situation, you are an idiot plain and simple.

Maybe I just think about things differently being that I live where most people would try to "bug out" to and I hike 4-5 times a week out here.. I'm fairly certain I could get out pretty quick. I know where to find water and food is plentiful.. and who actually plans to survive by drinking piss? I thought it was common knowledge that after you recycle piss, the ammonia content becomes so high that you cannot sustain on it and it become poisonous. I feel like the guy who wrote that thread is exactly the armchair commando he talks trash about in his article.
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Old 07-02-2013, 5:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rm1911 View Post
We won't see third world scenarios because we're not a third world nation. The reason we're not a third world nation is because we don't have third world nation culture. Ok. Now I'm a racist or bigot or at the least culturally insensitive. But here's the thing.
give 0bama time he'll turn this nation into a 3rd world country.
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:30 PM
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"During the Jakarta, Indonesia Riots in 1998 people could not even make it 3 blocks without running into a homemade roadblock manned by a group of knife and club-wielding thugs looking to strip them of everything, and that was only a day after the riots started.Given, the US (or the 1st world in general) is a bit more civilized, but I still give any major metropolitan city in the US 10 to 15 days before it is at the same level of chaos that a city in the 3rd world would be at after only a day under the same circumstances."

Lets see he says after one day there were roadblocks, but in the US he figures it would be 10-15 days. I figure it is because those people are used to riots and the local neighborhoods defend themselves. So if im bugging out here 10 days gives me a pretty good chance on getting the hell out. Will many people ptobably die in the process? Sure but if they are armed they stand a better chance of being left alone. And being overrun is always a possibility even in good times.
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