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  #41  
Old 07-01-2013, 8:34 AM
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Warhawk014 Warhawk014 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Some of you are awfully quick to jump to conclusions about my judgement and character. For those who have actually interpreted this thread correctly, thank you for contributing to the discussion. I do not know which, if any of you, whom replied are active LEOs.

For Warhawk asking "wtf is that" to disparity of force - being a calgunner, and especially if you're a LEO, I'm surprised you've never heard the term.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...rity-of-force/



http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...rity-of-force/



Massad Ayoob:


I promise I'm not just pulling stuff out of my rear end here.

Finally, I'm going to edit the first post here for those who are reading the first post and skipping down to type out a reply without reading the rest of the thread.

show me where in the california penal code does it say deadly force is authorized because of disparity of force.
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  #42  
Old 07-02-2013, 9:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Warhawk014 View Post
show me where in the california penal code does it say deadly force is authorized because of disparity of force.
Why do you think I'm asking in this thread? My current understanding was that it is accepted. If I'm wrong by all means post up a relevant PC section. I've already stated I'm not a cop, not a lawyer. I don't know the thousands of pages of PC by rote memorization, sorry.
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  #43  
Old 07-02-2013, 11:28 AM
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the term disparity of force is seldom if ever used by law enforcement. as leo's, we have a set guideline for the use of deadly force. the criteria is very simple, and universal throughout all of california and its many local, county and state agencies. it is the same for every agency because it comes from the exact same penal code. police officers still have to follow the same penal code you have to follow if you/they decide to use deadly force. though each dept's use of force policy may be worded differently they still have the same criteria. the use of deadly force is authorized to prevent great bodily injury or death. no where in there does it say disparity of force. the 2 links you provided have zero relevance to the penal code. and the only thing you need to reference when you are faced with the decision to use deadly force is the penal code. because its the only thing that matters, its the law of the land.



196. Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and
those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either--
1. In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or,
2. When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to
the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other
legal duty; or,
3. When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been
rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting
persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or
resisting such arrest.


the above applies to peace officers. the bolded section below applies to everyone. and forms the basis for all use of deadly force policy for every agency in california.


197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,

2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.


198. A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned
in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide
may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the
circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable
person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of
such fears alone.

californias castle doctrine. although most DA's will still probably charge you.

198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.



199. The homicide appearing to be justifiable or excusable, the
person indicted must, upon his trial, be fully acquitted and
discharged.


this is the law of the land. read it, learn it, live by it. all that other crap about disparity of force, toss it out the window it does not apply here nor is it even remotely relevant.
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Last edited by Warhawk014; 07-02-2013 at 11:30 AM..
  #44  
Old 07-02-2013, 11:46 AM
Jonnyboy182 Jonnyboy182 is offline
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As a LEO, if I responded to that call I would not be using my firearm. If I were off duty and saw this I would call it in and wait for the uniformed officers to show up. The only time my gun would come out would be to protect life. This guy was crazy and on drugs most likely. He could have snapped and gone overboard, he didn't. I would wonder after watching this video why anyone would argue that lethal force would have been a good idea.

On duty? Taser/OC/Baton depending on how he wanted to play
Off duty? I'm a good witness and would not draw unless death or GBI was imminent. I would consider going hands on if needed, but unless I have my CC in a solid holster that would hold up to a ground fight I would be more careful.
  #45  
Old 07-02-2013, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete
Some of you are awfully quick to jump to conclusions about my judgement and character.
It is because we agree with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnyboy182
I would wonder after watching this video why anyone would argue that lethal force would have been a good idea.
...because we know this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warhawk014
the 2 links you provided have zero relevance to the penal code. and the only thing you need to reference when you are faced with the decision to use deadly force is the penal code. because its the only thing that matters, its the law of the land.
...and, maybe because you ask for answers with a, self admitted, lack of knowledge, and then what ton rationalize away what you don't agree with
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  #46  
Old 07-02-2013, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Some of you are awfully quick to jump to conclusions about my judgement and character. For those who have actually interpreted this thread correctly, thank you for contributing to the discussion. I do not know which, if any of you, whom replied are active LEOs.

For Warhawk asking "wtf is that" to disparity of force - being a calgunner, and especially if you're a LEO, I'm surprised you've never heard the term.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...rity-of-force/



http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...rity-of-force/



Massad Ayoob:


I promise I'm not just pulling stuff out of my rear end here.

Finally, I'm going to edit the first post here for those who are reading the first post and skipping down to type out a reply without reading the rest of the thread.
I know what DOF is. I don't really like the term. I have never and will never use it. You should never see it on a LE use of force report either unless there is more articulation Explaining the DOF (in which case you didn't need to write "DOF" to begin with). As been pointed out - DOF is just one part of the "totality of the circumstances". Even in your first article, the author recognizes that you need more than just a DOF in order to use deadly force (e.g. I can't shoot someone just because he/she is bigger and stronger than me).
  #47  
Old 07-02-2013, 2:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
It is because we agree with this:

...because we know this:


...and, maybe because you ask for answers with a, self admitted, lack of knowledge, and then what ton rationalize away what you don't agree with
Asking for clarity does not equal arguing it's a good idea. The DOF links were simply to explain the term. I was aware that it varies from state to state, and as the PC reads it would seem that

"1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person"

would be sufficient for the women involved - as I was asking about before. (One of my questions, don't read that as all I was asking about). The man in question was charged with two felonies for false imprisonment and several misdemeanors. I am not trying to rationalize away anything I don't agree with, I am trying to see what legally could have happened in a slightly different situation. That's all, and I think this thread has run its course. Thank you for posting up the relevant PC section Warhawk.
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  #48  
Old 07-02-2013, 3:30 PM
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I dont know how to better answer your question.

If I were a responding officer to YOUR scenerio (Shoot). I would ask you
"were you in immediate fear for your life? (You: No)
"were you in immediate fear for their lives (You: ?)

I don't think anyone could say they were in fear for anyones life. Guy was scary, wacko and it could have gone sideways. Thankfully it didnt.

The bottom line is GBI or immediate fear of death. If you dont have that you dont have ANY reason to be pulling a gun out. And the ONLY time you should be pulling a gun out is because you intend to use it. Holding someone at gunpoint as a Non-Uniformed Leo is always tricky and dangerous.
  #49  
Old 07-02-2013, 3:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Asking for clarity does not equal arguing it's a good idea. The DOF links were simply to explain the term. I was aware that it varies from state to state, and as the PC reads it would seem that

"1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person"

would be sufficient for the women involved - as I was asking about before. (One of my questions, don't read that as all I was asking about). The man in question was charged with two felonies for false imprisonment and several misdemeanors. I am not trying to rationalize away anything I don't agree with, I am trying to see what legally could have happened in a slightly different situation. That's all, and I think this thread has run its course. Thank you for posting up the relevant PC section Warhawk.

the "to commit a felony" part of that penal code was put in place so that deadly force can be used to stop crimes that would lead to GBI or murder. robbery/kidnapping/rape that sorta stuff. though no physical attack has yet taken place or is currently taking place, the crimes themselves are violent enough that GBI or murder will likely be the end result. kinda like someone chasing another person with a knife. though no physical harm has been inflicted yet the continued attack will most likely result in GBI or death. therefore the criteria for the use of deadly force has been met.
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