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  #81  
Old 05-01-2013, 7:06 AM
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
As others have pointed out 00 and #1 buck are nearly universal for police, FBI, military, etc. None of these folks use increasingly lethal rounds either.
Law enforcement officers are practically immune from prosecution if their errant rounds should strike an innocent bystander. If I shoot off a slug in my house and it flies out my house, into my neighbor's house and kills someone in there... guess what? I'm going to prison for a very long time. A police officer doesn't have to worry about that. It is completely sensible for a civilian facing the realities of the criminal justice system to choose a different load that will accomplish the objective of stopping a threat, but lessen the possibility of getting innocent people stuck in the crossfire.

You can't compare civilian home defense with police and military work. Very different animals.
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  #82  
Old 05-01-2013, 8:26 AM
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You certainly can when you consider Problem #1: Stopping the Threat. Problems #2 and #3 may differ but to ignore the data, studies and practices of law enforcement is foolish.
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  #83  
Old 05-01-2013, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
The longest shot I would conceivably need to take in my house is about 8yds down a hallway. Any engagements in a room would be a maximum of 3-5yds. I really doubt I'd need to take a follow-up shot unless there is more than 1 intruder in the house. If I do, that's when the 00 buck comes in. After the first shot everyone in the house should have gotten down to the ground, so I'd be a little less concerned about over-penetration at that point.
Whatever floats your boat, but if someone is coming at me from 8yds he's getting a double tap of 00 buck center mass. At 8yds there simply isn't time to stop and reevaluate the threat and reengage if he's still coming at you. A Shotgun isn't a Phaser and in the 1 second that it takes an already moving man to cover 8yds he may not even realize that he's been shot before he reaches you, and in reality is probably going to be no more than 2 yards away by the time of the 2nd shot in the double tap. Remember that even a fatal wound isn't always an instant stopper and the attacker may still have time to inflict fatal damage to you before he loses consciousness. The key to 12ga double taps is having the right tool for the job and practicing double taps with it.
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  #84  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by sholling View Post
Whatever floats your boat, but if someone is coming at me from 8yds he's getting a double tap of 00 buck center mass. At 8yds there simply isn't time to stop and reevaluate the threat and reengage if he's still coming at you. A Shotgun isn't a Phaser and in the 1 second that it takes an already moving man to cover 8yds he may not even realize that he's been shot before he reaches you, and in reality is probably going to be no more than 2 yards away by the time of the 2nd shot in the double tap. Remember that even a fatal wound isn't always an instant stopper and the attacker may still have time to inflict fatal damage to you before he loses consciousness. The key to 12ga double taps is having the right tool for the job and practicing double taps with it.
People are thinking that this threat is contained to the house. What if your attacker decides to drag your kid outside to his car? Or, you wake up and some creep is going out the window with your kid? . . . game on and your assumptions can severely limit your ability to respond.
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  #85  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
People are thinking that this threat is contained to the house. What if your attacker decides to drag your kid outside to his car? Or, you wake up and some creep is going out the window with your kid? . . . game on and your assumptions can severely limit your ability to respond.
That is why there is a gun locker right next to my bed that contains a Benelli M1 Super 90 and a Mini-14 along with spare ammo for both. I like having the right tool for every job on hand and ready to go.
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  #86  
Old 05-01-2013, 1:47 PM
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Originally Posted by negolien View Post
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like the Shotgun for HD for the simple reason you can load it to minimize over penetration and for particular encounters. Any Handgun you use is going thru a few walls no doubt about it. Any Buckshot you use is going thru a few walls no doubt about it. You also are going to be jacked up making aiming problematic. The shotgun must be employed correctly in a HD situation also. You take up a position that defends a choke point , call 911 immediately while yelling you are armed and willing to use deadly force and racking the action chambering your 1st round of #8.

Do some google searches on Birdshot penetration. People can run their mouths all they want about buckshot but the tests don't lie. I saw an outstanding piece on one of the outdoor channel shows on penetration of shotgun ammo. Any buckshot is penetrating a minimum of two pieces of drywall or one complete wall. You hit someone at 7 yards or closer (the average distance of defense engagements) with some #8 and that's going to seriously hamper the bad guys determination to continue the attack. It's also going to stop the attack at least momentarily if not permanently. No one let me say that again NO ONE is going to take a 12 gauge blast without at least temporarily being stopped cold at such a close range. I stagger the loads also keeping my Shotty "Cruiser Ready" or empty chamber, safety off tube full with 1 round of #8, 3 rounds of 000 and finally a slug. the #8 is also a good trap/skeet load imo.

Shotguns are great for defense and my 1st choice. I only go with the Handgun because of the inability to carry a shotgun for defense wherever you go lol. Below is a link to one of my favorite Birdshot myth busting videos.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...=0&FORM=NVPFVR
Racking that shotgun will also give away your position, remember that the invader (or group of home invaders) will most likely be armed as well.

And #8 bird shot while good for manual of arms practice should not be used as a home defense round due to the lack of mass of said pellet size.

#4 Buckshot (not birdshot) is a very good option as an in home defensive load due to the mass of said pellet size and the reduced chance of over penetration (Notice I said reduced chance of over penetration) if you intend to keep a shotgun for home defense and wish to keep it ready for action. have it stored where only you and other trusted members of the household know where it is (as well as it's condition of readiness) . Keep a round in the chamber safety on with extra ammo ( of the same type) stored either with it or on it. Then all you need to do is slip a few rounds into the magazine tube and flick the safety off, or if a shot is needed very fast you can single load it (which requires practice)
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  #87  
Old 05-01-2013, 3:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frito Bandido View Post
Law enforcement officers are practically immune from prosecution if their errant rounds should strike an innocent bystander. If I shoot off a slug in my house and it flies out my house, into my neighbor's house and kills someone in there... guess what? I'm going to prison for a very long time. A police officer doesn't have to worry about that. It is completely sensible for a civilian facing the realities of the criminal justice system to choose a different load that will accomplish the objective of stopping a threat, but lessen the possibility of getting innocent people stuck in the crossfire.

You can't compare civilian home defense with police and military work. Very different animals.
As noted just below your post you can compare them. We like to use miltary and police style firearms and ammunition as well. Stopping a threat is #1.

Although it certainly is a lofty/thoughtful/intellectual exercise to worry about over penetration, it should not guide your decision. First of all, worry about practice, with practice, under stress, doing so one is much more likely to puts rounds on target. That helps stop a threat and also nearly eliminates the chance of any additional harm from over penetration. The relatively small reduction in over penetration from #4 buck compared to #1 or 00 just is not worth the reduced terminal ballistics. Certainly anything smaller than #4 buck is simply WRONG advice. #4 may be a reasonable compromise, but in my opinion the drawbacks are smaller than the gains.

Slugs are a entirely different game with regards to their penetration (massive to say the least). That being said slugs still can have a legitimate purpose in HD (engaging a target behind a wall or in some rare circumstances even in a vehicle).
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  #88  
Old 05-01-2013, 4:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
As noted just below your post you can compare them. We like to use miltary and police style firearms and ammunition as well. Stopping a threat is #1.

Although it certainly is a lofty/thoughtful/intellectual exercise to worry about over penetration, it should not guide your decision. First of all, worry about practice, with practice, under stress, doing so one is much more likely to puts rounds on target. That helps stop a threat and also nearly eliminates the chance of any additional harm from over penetration. The relatively small reduction in over penetration from #4 buck compared to #1 or 00 just is not worth the reduced terminal ballistics. Certainly anything smaller than #4 buck is simply WRONG advice. #4 may be a reasonable compromise, but in my opinion the drawbacks are smaller than the gains.

Slugs are a entirely different game with regards to their penetration (massive to say the least). That being said slugs still can have a legitimate purpose in HD (engaging a target behind a wall or in some rare circumstances even in a vehicle).
Some good points in your rebuttal. My main point that stopping a threat is not my only priority. I want to defend not only my life, but also preserve my freedom. I try to take an "all of the above" approach... both elements are equally important to me.

Ultimately training wins out over ammo selection, but both are important.

Part of taking an "all of the above" approach is also seeing the value of slugs. I don't completely discount their use, but in my opinion they should be reserved for an outdoor situation only. My comments were more in regards to inside a dwelling. I do actually keep 5 slugs on a buttstock shell holder in case a target needs to be engaged outside or in a vehicle as you suggest, but I would never fire a slug inside the house unless I had no other option. 00 Buck has plenty of power to go through a wall if I need it to, or through furniture.
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  #89  
Old 05-01-2013, 5:41 PM
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Interesting reading and opinions. It really depends on where you live, a apartment at Pico/Union is much different from a trailerhome on the back forty.

The most important thing is have a plan and training.

YMMV
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  #90  
Old 05-01-2013, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe'Bronco View Post
Penetrate, yes. Continue to be lethal. NO

I have first hand experence being "peppered" with birdshot through an object.
Not fun, but not lethal. If it were buck shot, chances are i would not have been so lucky.
I've got personal experience at being shot from ZERO feet with a stiff duck load of #5's. Buckshot, I'd be dead. Birdshot, I could've returned fire if there was a threat.

You're assuming a head on center of mass hit with your bird load...while assuming a miss with buckshot. That's just not realistic.

I wanna break bones and penetrate in that more likely oblique shot.

You really shouldn't be counseling people....against basically ALL professional judgement.
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  #91  
Old 05-01-2013, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by yelohamr View Post
All of the talk about bird shot is for birds, is just talk. In 1978 my partner was promoted to sgt.
On Labor Day weekend of that year, he and his roommate were ambushed as they returned home. He was shot with a .410, loaded with bird shot, at close range. Before he died, he got off 5 rounds from his .38. The suspect was hit 5 times in the upper torso and ran about 50 yards before he died.

All of you keyboard ballistic experts can bite me and STFU.
First...sorry about your partner.

Second...exactly. From the BG's perspective, the threat was not stopped until he could return (accurately even) fire. It's not about what eventually kills the BG, it's about stopping the threat in the most expeditious manner.

The .38, with the loads of the day, were lacking as well.
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I won't.
I sign the dotted line and wrote a blank check to my country (RIP) back in the 1980s payable up to and including my life.
Back then I had a country worth defending, if Russia or China were to invade tomorrow I'll laugh.
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  #92  
Old 05-01-2013, 6:27 PM
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First...sorry about your partner.

Second...exactly. From the BG's perspective, the threat was not stopped until he could return (accurately even) fire. It's not about what eventually kills the BG, it's about stopping the threat in the most expeditious manner.

The .38, with the loads of the day, were lacking as well.
That is exactly right. The fact that the bad guy will eventually die is no consolation to my family. Some guys have a lot of fight in them even with wounds that would eventually prove fatal (Miami FBI shoot out comes to mind).

People keep mentioning how birdshot is not lethal through walls. What happens if the bad guy does something crazy like use a wall as cover. If he has a hangun, and you are loaded with birdshot he is behind cover, and you are behind concealment.

Last edited by bernieb90; 05-01-2013 at 6:38 PM..
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  #93  
Old 05-02-2013, 4:46 PM
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Last time I looked here, nobody had mentioned the mini-12 ga. shells made by Aquila. They're only 1-3/4in. so they won't cycle through autos or pumps, but if you have a break action 12 they might be the answer if you are really concerned about over penetration. I bought some but haven't tried them yet. MidwayUSA lists them and some customers have posted reviews there.
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  #94  
Old 05-02-2013, 7:19 PM
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Going biden with the double barrel shotty eh? Lol just messin. But in all honesty if you guys haven't already you need to watch the magpul videos on shotgun. The shotgun is the most versatile weapon in our arsenal and it can be the hardest to manage CORRECTLY in a high stress situation. That's why having different rounds ready at hand can be the best option. Having a side saddle with rounds that can be used in different situations is the best. And in order to use the shotgun to its fullest extent it needs to be practiced. Doing round change outs and the like could save your life as well as your family's life. And that is what we are trying to do. Having the option of slugs 00buck 4buck would be the ultimate situation but you would have to know how to change and use them accordingly.
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  #95  
Old 05-03-2013, 2:18 PM
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Oh my holy crap. So much idiocy in this thread
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  #96  
Old 05-03-2013, 2:33 PM
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For some reason negolien keeps insisting that birdshot is an effective manstopper. He has previously used a YouTube post by a hunter to back up his notion.

I will link to a law enforcement officer/surgeon who is a wound ballistic expert who says otherwise:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=99583

Plus there have been two posters in this thread with firsthand stories of people getting shot with birdshot who either lived or returned fire before expiring. Birdshot are for birds. Birdshot being 100% deadly at 20 feet is patently absurd. Negolien, YouTube posts from rural Kentuckians does not proof make.


Quote:
Originally Posted by negolien View Post
The facts are simple and no amount of semantics will change it. Birdshot is 100% deadly within 20 feet or less PERIOD... We have seen #8 birdshot go thru a full set of ribs and into meat at longer range than most people would be at if engaging a threat at home. We have seen it go thru a FULL wall at like 20 feet and actually get a little penetraion on a 2nd wall. People just need to stop parsing their statements and accept the fact that birdshot is going to be deadly to an intruder beaking into your home if you hit him. We have also seen that Buckshot will with 100% certainty get alot of penatration evan at 20 feet and will go thru MULTIPLE walls.
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  #97  
Old 05-03-2013, 2:42 PM
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Which "bird shot" are we refering to?
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  #98  
Old 05-03-2013, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Stevod View Post
Last time I looked here, nobody had mentioned the mini-12 ga. shells made by Aquila. They're only 1-3/4in. so they won't cycle through autos or pumps, but if you have a break action 12 they might be the answer if you are really concerned about over penetration. I bought some but haven't tried them yet. MidwayUSA lists them and some customers have posted reviews there.
The mini buck shot may be small but it is sending the load still at 1250 feet per second just like any 2 3/4 round.They can be used in pumps the Win.1300 defender is said to feed them without any work.The 870 and the 500 need some tuning to have them feed.The advantage is you are able to get more rds in the tube.
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  #99  
Old 05-03-2013, 9:10 PM
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Default DOH!!!!

LOFL I haven't been in this thread for a while so.. But yes the Videos being refered to show the facts /shrug. Not sure how the trolling thread crappers can argue with the obvious video evidance. Like most trolls factual information doesn't stop them from trolling.

Video one

1. That birdshot will go thru one complete wall and stop in the 2nd
2. That buckshot will not only go thru one wall but 4 and a backstop


Video two. about 6:30 in the video

1. That birdshot at 20 feet will absolutely 100% go thru a sternum and cause MASSIVE penetration and damage.

But you go ahead and deny facts /shrug whatever makes your troll justified in your mind lol.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-f-D8Wx73pU

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...=0&FORM=NVPFVR
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  #100  
Old 05-03-2013, 9:52 PM
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How about shootin' some meat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU
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  #101  
Old 05-04-2013, 9:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by negolien View Post
LOFL I haven't been in this thread for a while so.. But yes the Videos being refered to show the facts /shrug. Not sure how the trolling thread crappers can argue with the obvious video evidance. Like most trolls factual information doesn't stop them from trolling.

Video one

1. That birdshot will go thru one complete wall and stop in the 2nd
2. That buckshot will not only go thru one wall but 4 and a backstop


Video two. about 6:30 in the video

1. That birdshot at 20 feet will absolutely 100% go thru a sternum and cause MASSIVE penetration and damage.

But you go ahead and deny facts /shrug whatever makes your troll justified in your mind lol.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-f-D8Wx73pU

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...=0&FORM=NVPFVR

Now...if we can only get the BG to square up at 20'.

Your facts are useless. A .22LR will travel a mile too...but no one suggests targeting a mile away with a .22.

It always amazes me that birdshot hits the BG square in the chest, while buckshot is a clean miss killing a child 5 houses down.

No problem. Use whatever you want. it's you and your family. Just stop trying to convince others with your irrational rationalizations.
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Tell me again why Christians should ever fight for this country?
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I won't.
I sign the dotted line and wrote a blank check to my country (RIP) back in the 1980s payable up to and including my life.
Back then I had a country worth defending, if Russia or China were to invade tomorrow I'll laugh.

Last edited by JagerDog; 05-04-2013 at 10:06 AM..
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  #102  
Old 05-04-2013, 9:43 AM
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Whatever, you want to use bird shot, more power to you.

The Birdshort side will present their side, the buck guys will present theirs, and the end user can look at both and determine what they feel comfortable with. Presenting "absolutes" on either side is just asking for a test fixed one way or the other.


For me, I'll use buck. I don't think bird shot would feel real great at 20' regardless.
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  #103  
Old 05-04-2013, 9:52 AM
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So let's make this simple and clear...OK????


I personally am not saying YOU MUST use a certain ammunition... everyones defense plan is going to be differant do to factors like penetration, dwelling type, firearms, location yadda yadda yadda. All I suggest is that people make an informed decison based on factual data. Not someones biased opinion. The videos I posted have pretty simple straightforward factual results that no normal person can argue with. If someones still running their mouth about this is BETTER you MUST do this .. they are just a troll /
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