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  #1  
Old 04-15-2013, 2:46 PM
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Default Turner's San Marcos Broke the law

Hello,

I would like to inform my fellow CalGuns members that Turner's Outdoorsman in San Marcos, CA (North San Diego) denied my PPT with a fellow Cal-Gunner because the address on my license did not match the address on my utility bill. (After driving 150 miles to do the PPT, and I had done one 3 hours earlier at Ammo Bros. Cerritos)

The meat-head retail clerk asked his manager who said that it was illegal to do a PPT if the addresses did not match.

THIS WAS A LIE. I was able to do my PPT fine through a private gunshop in Escondido (3 miles away) called "Precision Arms" run by an awesome guy who was very helpful. He said he was a getting a lot of PPT's from Turner's because they will turn down a PPT for illegal reasons ALL THE TIME, because they don't make enough money off the transfers.

I just have to provide 2 proofs or residency, and everything is all good, according to the law.

I think my fellow CalGunners would like to know that Turner's Outdoorsman has no problem denying 2nd amendment constitutional rights to people in VIOLATION OF THE LAW.

I am thinking of filing a formal complaint with the DOJ. (After my PPT's are done, you never know)

I now make it a point to boycott Turner's at all costs, even if it means driving out of my way or paying a couple bucks more.

I will support mom and pop shops like "Precision Arms" because they go out of their way to treat people well, EVEN IF THEY AREN"T MAKING MONEY OFF THEM.

Thank you John Harms and Precision Arms.

(I mean, I was able to do a PPT's no problem at 3 different locations: Precision Arms, Ammo Bros Cerritos, and Alamo Pawn West Covina (highly recommended) that same week)

Thank you for listening to my rant, I hope you avoid these clowns in the future.

Brian

Last edited by retired; 04-18-2013 at 10:54 PM.. Reason: profanity
  #2  
Old 04-15-2013, 2:54 PM
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I always thought that the addresses had to match???
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  #3  
Old 04-15-2013, 2:56 PM
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Nope. If they don't match, you just have to provide 2 proofs of residency, not 1. I used my LA DWP bill and another letter from the state of california.
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Old 04-15-2013, 2:57 PM
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Also, who sneaks into California to buy a gun? The proof of residency requirement is pure bureaucratic nonsense. The cartels don't buy CA-compliant assault rifles....
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Old 04-15-2013, 3:02 PM
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This is Turners policy and I have had it happen to me and witnessed it happening to others in Norwalk.
We went over to Ammo brothers and it went through fine.
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Old 04-15-2013, 3:05 PM
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Which had the correct address?
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Old 04-15-2013, 3:09 PM
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I like turners. Have done several PPT's there and just bought a handgun there this weekend. Sorry for your bad experiences. Just means one less person there buying ammo.
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  #8  
Old 04-15-2013, 3:20 PM
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How can Turner's have a policy which is in violation of the law? DOJ states clearly that a PPT can only be turned down for legitimate reasons stated in their rules and guidelines.

Also, I don't see anywhere in the 2nd amendment regarding residency requirements for firearm transfers. I am a tax-paying, law-abiding American citizen with no criminal record, no DUI's or disqualifying misdemeanors.

I should not be disqualified from firearm ownership because of a corporate policy. I was not aware that corporate policy trumped the Constitution, or DOJ regulations...
  #9  
Old 04-15-2013, 3:26 PM
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I moved so my address is not right on my license. I just take in my utility bill with my new address and its good to go. I have done PPT's and new gun buys this way with all my guns and I have not had any issues.
  #10  
Old 04-15-2013, 3:42 PM
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Exactly my point Reachotaur! Except don't try and do a PPT at Turner's, they will illegally turn you down for this.
  #11  
Old 04-15-2013, 3:53 PM
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Another form of government id needs to be provided on the 4473 if the address on your dl is not correct. So I guess it depends on what type of utility bill was being used. It's not the same as the state doj requiring secondary proof.
  #12  
Old 04-15-2013, 4:04 PM
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No, another form of government ID does NOT need to be provided. A proof of residency from a state run-entity--LA DWP, State of California, etc is fine. Also the address on my DL is not "incorrect," it is where I get my mail, not where I live.

(On a side note: According to the law, a Drivers' License isn't an accepted form of ID anyways).

Also, if my DL is suspended due to a traffic infraction, why does the DL cease to be valid ID? The law is stupid and unclear, which are the best ways for a police state to take away your rights.

Bottom line, how is all the bureaucratic red tape legal? And now Turner's, a corporation, is making their own laws up? I know THAT isn't legal for sure.
  #13  
Old 04-15-2013, 4:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterb View Post
Hello,

I would like to inform my fellow CalGuns members that Turner's Outdoorsman in San Marcos, CA (North San Diego) denied my PPT with a fellow Cal-Gunner because the address on my license did not match the address on my utility bill. (After driving 150 miles to do the PPT, and I had done one 3 hours earlier at Ammo Bros. Cerritos)

The meat-head retail clerk asked his manager who said that it was illegal to do a PPT if the addresses did not match.

THIS WAS A LIE. I was able to do my PPT fine through a private gunshop in Escondido (3 miles away) called "Precision Arms" run by an awesome guy who was very helpful. He said he was a getting a lot of PPT's from Turner's because they will turn down a PPT for illegal reasons ALL THE TIME, because they don't make enough money off the transfers.

I just have to provide 2 proofs or residency, and everything is all good, according to the law.

I think my fellow CalGunners would like to know that Turner's Outdoorsman has no problem denying 2nd amendment constitutional rights to people in VIOLATION OF THE LAW.

I am thinking of filing a formal complaint with the DOJ. (After my PPT's are done, you never know)

I now make it a point to boycott Turner's at all costs, even if it means driving out of my way or paying a couple bucks more.

I will support mom and pop shops like "Precision Arms" because they go out of their way to treat people well, EVEN IF THEY AREN"T MAKING MONEY OFF THEM.

Thank you John Harms and Precision Arms, and F*** You TURNERS.

(I mean, I was able to do a PPT's no problem at 3 different locations: Precision Arms, Ammo Bros Cerritos, and Alamo Pawn West Covina (highly recommended) that same week)

Thank you for listening to my rant, I hope you avoid these clowns in the future.

Brian
Proof of Residency


From the Ca. DOJ website.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/resprf

Under Bureau of Firearms policy and soon to be proposed in regulations, firearms dealers may accept any of the following:

Utility bill reflecting services to a fixed place of residence. The utility bill must bear on its face both of the following:
The name of the transferee.
Either the residential address declared on the DROS form or the address as it appears on the transferee's identification.


Residential lease that bears both of the following:
The name of the transferee.
Either the residential address declared by the transferee on the DROS form, or the address as it appears on the transferee's CDL or CID.

Property deed the bears both of the following:
The name of the transferee
Either the residential address declared by the transferee on the DROS form, or the address as it appears on the transferee's CDL or CID.

Government-issued (city, county, special district, state or federal) documentation that has all of the following - - This does not include a drivers license or DMV-issued ID card:
The name of the transferee as it appears on the transferee's CDL or CID.
The name of the transferee as the transferee declares on the DROS form.
The residential address of the transferee as it appears on the transferee's CDL or CID or the address update attachment to the driver's license/identification card.
The residential address of the transferee as the transferee declares on the DROS form.
Examples of acceptable proof of residency pursuant to newly-proposed regulations:
DMV registrations are NOW acceptable.
Electricity, gas, cable bill from within the last 3 months.
Signed, dated and notarized rental agreement/contract.
Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:
Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.
Passport.
Pay stub.
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  #14  
Old 04-15-2013, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Hazard View Post
Proof of Residency


From the Ca. DOJ website.

http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/resprf

Under Bureau of Firearms policy and soon to be proposed in regulations, firearms dealers may accept any of the following:

Utility bill reflecting services to a fixed place of residence. The utility bill must bear on its face both of the following:
The name of the transferee.
Either the residential address declared on the DROS form or the address as it appears on the transferee's identification.


Residential lease that bears both of the following:
The name of the transferee.
Either the residential address declared by the transferee on the DROS form, or the address as it appears on the transferee's CDL or CID.

Property deed the bears both of the following:
The name of the transferee
Either the residential address declared by the transferee on the DROS form, or the address as it appears on the transferee's CDL or CID.

Government-issued (city, county, special district, state or federal) documentation that has all of the following - - This does not include a drivers license or DMV-issued ID card:
The name of the transferee as it appears on the transferee's CDL or CID.
The name of the transferee as the transferee declares on the DROS form.
The residential address of the transferee as it appears on the transferee's CDL or CID or the address update attachment to the driver's license/identification card.
The residential address of the transferee as the transferee declares on the DROS form.
Examples of acceptable proof of residency pursuant to newly-proposed regulations:
DMV registrations are NOW acceptable.
Electricity, gas, cable bill from within the last 3 months.
Signed, dated and notarized rental agreement/contract.
Examples of documents that are NOT acceptable proof of residency:
Hunting or fishing license (these documents are not issued by the government).
Cellular phone bill.
Passport.
Pay stub.

The utility bill must bear on its face both of the following:
The name of the transferee.
EITHER the residential address declared on the DROS form or the address as it appears on the transferee's identification.

Yup, since you write in ("declare") the address on your DROS form, it will match your utility bill...So thanks for verifying I am right and Turner's are crooks according to the written law, Ed_Hazard!
  #15  
Old 04-15-2013, 4:27 PM
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Federal 4473 Requirements If the transferee's picture ID address does not match the address entered on form 4473, then you must obtain from the transferee: • Another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee’s residence address. This alternate documentation should be recorded in question 20.b, with issuing authority and type of identification presented. Do not take a copy of the document. Simply write down the document issuing authority and type in 20.b. It must be a government issued document. This is required for any firearm transaction either long gun or handgun. • Examples of documents that DO NOT qualify: non-government utility bills, DMV brown change of address cards, and hunting licenses. The document should be printed or typed and not handwritten. • Common examples of qualifying documents: CA vehicle registration, CA DMV printout, CCW, Form W-2, local government utility bill, big game tags issued by drawing, and lifetime hunting licenses printed by the state
  #16  
Old 04-15-2013, 4:30 PM
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So you going to sue?
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Old 04-15-2013, 4:40 PM
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@sass2924
Yup, so the LA DWP bill "should" work fine. My letter from the State of California "should" work fine. But they didn't. Only at Turner's.

@ElvenSoul
Sue? I've never sued anyone before (I feel fortunate in that regard) and honestly wouldn't know where to start. We'll see if I'm still all huffy puffy about it when I finish my work project in 2 weeks. (I'm pretty huffy about it as you can tell : ) Then I'll probably file a complaint and leave it at that. I'd have to be a lot more wronged to try and get money out of them into my pocket. If I hadn't been able to get the PPT done and driven 300 miles for nothing and wasted half a day I would be much more eager to sue I suppose.
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Old 04-15-2013, 4:47 PM
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I never said you were wrong. Didnt see the previous post of dwp being the bill.
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Old 04-15-2013, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterb View Post
Nope. If they don't match, you just have to provide 2 proofs of residency, not 1. I used my LA DWP bill and another letter from the state of california.
the law does not say that you ahve to provide 2 proofs of residency. I wish people would understand that and quit passing off that piece of FUD.

CA law says that if you are buying a handgun that you have to have 1 PoR, not 2, but that your DL/ID is not PoR.

federal law does not require PoR, but says that if your DL/ID does not match the address you list on the 4473, that you must provide a secondary Proof of Identity.

the document that you use for PoR can also be used for PoI. that DWP bill is issued by a .gov agency and has your current address on it with your name so it should satisfy PoI for the feds. And as a utility bill, it should cover state PoR as well. That should have been all you needed. no 2nd PoR is needed. Did you point out to Turners that it was a .gov-issued utiltiy bill so that it satisfies both PoR and PoI?
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Old 04-15-2013, 5:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sass2924 View Post
I never said you were wrong. Didnt see the previous post of dwp being the bill.
@sass2924
Doh, I thought you were agreeing with me and I was agreeing with you.
Which it looks like happened in the end : )
Thanks for pasting in the actual law to make it more clear, much appreciated!
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Old 04-15-2013, 5:10 PM
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2nd amendment doesn't really apply to private companies. It's why so many ban firearms on their property. I will say, however, that you should email corporate and if you don't hear within a week or two, decide if contacting the caldoj is worth it.
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Last edited by monk; 04-15-2013 at 5:13 PM..
  #22  
Old 04-15-2013, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterb View Post
Also, who sneaks into California to buy a gun? The proof of residency requirement is pure bureaucratic nonsense. The cartels don't buy CA-compliant assault rifles....
I hope you're not suggesting that any California compliant rifle is an assault rifle.
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Old 04-15-2013, 5:32 PM
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i try my best to not PPT at turners!
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Old 04-15-2013, 6:10 PM
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Thanks for the advice and support everyone! I've said it many times, but if the gun-control advocates could see how supportive the CalGuns community is they would be clamoring to join.

Thanks Monk, that is some good advice. I will contact their corporate headquarters and see if I get a response. I have already emailed the corporate contact in the threads, I'll give him a week to respond.

And Loubot13, sorry it was a slip of the tongue! (or keyboard) my bad! To call our neutered AR's and such, "assault rifles" is a stretch at best and a big fat lie in reality, I stand corrected!
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Old 04-15-2013, 6:16 PM
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@ke6jug
You are right! Thank you for correcting me and sharing your knowledge and experience!

Yes, Turner's knew it was a public utility bill, they were just looking for any excuse to not do the PPT. This was confirmed by the owner of Precision Arms down the street who says he gets PPT's from Turners all the time and they don't like to do PPT's because they don't make any money off them.

But thank you very much for enlightening me that the POR and POI can be the same document if it fulfills all the requirements! I guess that's why Ammo Bros Cerritos and Alamo Pawn West Covina (highly recommended, PPT took 5 minutes) didn't ask for a 2nd PoR...
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Old 04-16-2013, 6:38 AM
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I moved so my address is not right on my license. I just take in my car registration with my new address and its good to go. I have done PPT's and new gun buys (at Turner's) this way with all my guns and I have not had any issues.
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Old 04-16-2013, 8:10 AM
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I did a few PPT's @ Turners in Torrance without any problems before.

To the OP', perhaps their corporate could chime-in on this matter, for future references !
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Old 04-17-2013, 4:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omil View Post
I did a few PPT's @ Turners in Torrance without any problems before.

To the OP', perhaps their corporate could chime-in on this matter, for future references !
Brian-

Firstly, we appreciate that you brought this to us.

Secondly, from what you’ve told me I agree that you have what you needed to proceed. You have CA HG residency in the form of the utility bill and you can use your EDD document to satisfy ATF’s requirement of having a govt document to update/correct your CDL since you haven’t updated that. (Everyone tends to call that latter requirement residency but it’s really not; it’s just a Federal requirement when people don’t abide by state law and update their CDL within the time period dictated by the individual states.)

And, in talking with the our Director of Store Sales/Management, he also agrees that you were set and ready to go and he’s had prior conversation with the folks in the store that a combination of documents similar to yours not only works, but we take it every day for regular sales and PPT’s. I’ll be talking to the store manager today and figure out who or what got this fouled up, but we’ll follow through. Lastly, we understand why you’re upset but there is no company policy nor a store policy to not do PPT’s. These days, a PPT is much faster in our stores than it was in the past, so any manager giving resistance to a PPT is off track and we’ll deal with it.

Lastly just as an aside, it looks like the Dems (and likely with input from DOJ) are going to be looking harder at PPT’s from the seller standpoint with regards to the phrase “infrequent” but among all of the pending legislation out there is one that is getting overlooked- AB 740- that would more narrowly define the phrase infrequent to include all firearms not just handguns. Currently they say that us gun guys (speaking as an individual not a dealer) can transfer less than 6 handguns a year for those transfers be considered infrequent- AB 740 would apply to all transfers. As if we need this on top of everything else that is moving through Sacramento…. See an excerpt from AB-740 below.

Again, thanks for bringing this to us; we’ll get with the store and deal with whatever the issue is.


Bill Ortiz
Vice President of Operations


11738 San Marino St. Suite A
Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91730

Office (909) 923-3009


AB 740, as amended, Alejo. Firearms.

….Existing law provides that certain prohibitions on the transfer of firearms do not apply if the transfer is among other things, infrequent. Existing law defines “infrequent” for these purposes as less than 6 transactions per calendar year for handguns, and occasional and without regularity for firearms other than handguns. Existing law defines “transaction” for these purposes as a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of handguns. This bill would define “infrequent” for purposes of these provisions as less than 5 6 firearms transactions per calendar year. The bill would revise the definition of “transaction” for these purposes to mean a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of firearms.
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Old 04-17-2013, 4:16 PM
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I would like to thanks Bill Ortiz at Turner's corporate for handling my complaint with grace and lightning speed.
My faith in Turner's is restored, and if anyone is doing a PPT at a Turner's feel free to print out Bill's email and show it to any manager who tries to turn down your PPT if you have the required documentation.
I have filed corporate complaints a couple times in the past and I am quite shocked how quickly this was responded to. Kudos to Bill, hopefully things will be different now. (And when corporate heat hits retail managers, changes are usually amazingly fast).

Thanks for the support and advice everyone! The Cal Guns community makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Think I am long overdue for a CGF donation.

Last edited by hunterb; 04-17-2013 at 4:18 PM..
  #30  
Old 04-17-2013, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterb View Post
How can Turner's have a policy which is in violation of the law? DOJ states clearly that a PPT can only be turned down for legitimate reasons stated in their rules and guidelines.

Also, I don't see anywhere in the 2nd amendment regarding residency requirements for firearm transfers. I am a tax-paying, law-abiding American citizen with no criminal record, no DUI's or disqualifying misdemeanors.

I should not be disqualified from firearm ownership because of a corporate policy. I was not aware that corporate policy trumped the Constitution, or DOJ regulations...
Its a private business...they can refuse service to anyone, at any time for any reason. They don't have to do anything. If people don't like the policies all they can do is not shop there.
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Old 04-17-2013, 7:00 PM
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Its a private business...they can refuse service to anyone, at any time for any reason. They don't have to do anything. If people don't like the policies all they can do is not shop there.
Not entirely true. While they can make stricter policies, by virtue of dealing in long guns and handguns they are required by law to perform PPT's.
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  #32  
Old 04-17-2013, 7:12 PM
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bodger bodger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rough Gear Review View Post
Its a private business...they can refuse service to anyone, at any time for any reason. They don't have to do anything. If people don't like the policies all they can do is not shop there.
If they refuse to do PPTs they are in violation of the law. So...to be in business they kind of "have" to do those PPTs.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:02 AM
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The problem is, and this is solely from our experience, we have to parties to make happy, DOJ and ATF. You are right when it comes down to the requirements of the DOJ, but according to our ATF agent, the only time a second for of government ID can be used when the address is different form the CDL/CID is when it is a P.O. box. But, we don't refuse the PPT. We do it under the condition that the buyer will get a change of address print out from the DMV by the pick up date to satisfy ATF's request. Again, this is solely based on our experience.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:02 PM
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The only reason this thread is being closed rather than deleted, is because of the importance of the subject. The profanity directed at the vendor by the OP in their forum or in any forum, is unacceptable.

OP, similar posting in the future may result in a vacation from Calguns. Knock it off.
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