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  #41  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:06 PM
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I took a look at your Youtube channel and think I have a better understanding of where you are speaking from and how your views developed.

I'll not try to change your mind, but I hope other folks reading this have a better understanding of seeing and using the sights on a handgun at speed
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  #42  
Old 03-24-2013, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
I'd defer to one of the greatest gunfighters of our time, Jim Cirillo (of the famed NYPD Stakeout Squad), who said that even when he was so scared that his "tongue was stuck to the roof of his mouth", he still saw a sight picture, which calmed him, and allowed him to put down 3 armed robbers in his first shootout (Gun, Bullets, and Gunfights)
And that was probably in broad daylight. We're talking night sights. And it's anecdotal. One of the fastest and most accurate shooters I know (who is an instructor for several LEA's) point shoots exclusively up to 30 yards. I've seen him spin, draw, and fire on 5 spread targets at 25 yards and score all "A" headshots without a miss seemingly faster than I can blink. Incredible. But that's anecdotal too.

I also spoke with a well known competitive shooter that told me he shoots so fast it would be impossible to properly acquire his sights. He just developed a sense of when they were properly aligned over time. But again, that's anecdotal.

That being said, I personally still look for a sight picture. But I don't hold a candle to the two shooters I just mentioned.

Quote:
You mean like these...both fronts and rears are tritium lamps?



You can get the night sights in whichever color combination you'd like, just tell them when they make the sight bodies.

Yes! I'm unfamiliar with those sights. Who makes them? And the rear is a tritium tube mounted sideways?
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  #43  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:07 AM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
Yes! I'm unfamiliar with those sights. Who makes them? And the rear is a tritium tube mounted sideways?
9mmepiphany has friends in high places.

IIRC, those were custom made (although I don't recall them being night sights).
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  #44  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:31 AM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
And that was probably in broad daylight. We're talking night sights. And it's anecdotal.
Well, yes it is. Anything we read or even told directly to us is anecdotal...it isn't like we were there.

I gather you aren't a student of gunfighting to not be familiar with this much studied shootout. Besides Jim writing about it in his book, he has also taught it national in classes and it was obviously investigated at the time.

He was behind cover at a stakeout when 3 armed robbers entered. The followup investigation determined that they were all about 60-75 feet (25 yards) from Jim when he started shooting. Two perps were behind customers and in one case, he only had a 6" window in which to take the shots on a moving head.

He was shooting his S&W M-10, emptied one and drew the other before the fight ended.

Quote:
Yes! I'm unfamiliar with those sights. Who makes them? And the rear is a tritium tube mounted sideways?
Mine were made by Ned Christensen of Michiguns

The rear is a tube mounted sideways under the notch. It is mounted from underneath so it can't be dislodged when the gun is knocked about...this is a duty gun that I also carried while off-duty

Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBam-31
IIRC, those were custom made (although I don't recall them being night sights).
It was really bright that day at Angeles...remember shooting across the canyon at the steel targets?
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  #45  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:48 AM
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If this isn't the right place to ask I apologize, but would the same thought process apply to having a single fiber front sight?
I ask because competitive shooters seem to use them, and I would think the same theory of a busy sight picture would apply.
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  #46  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:53 AM
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It was really bright that day at Angeles...remember shooting across the canyon at the steel targets?
Uh....I'm invoking my Fifth, sir.
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  #47  
Old 03-24-2013, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by twolane View Post
If this isn't the right place to ask I apologize, but would the same thought process apply to having a single fiber front sight?
I ask because competitive shooters seem to use them, and I would think the same theory of a busy sight picture would apply.
The fiber optic isn't meant to be used as an aiming point. It is meant to draw the eye to the front sight (faster sight pickup), but you still align the top of the front blade with the tops of the rear ears.

That isn't to say I haven't seen it used as an aiming point. I'll even bet I've used mine on close and dirty targets. The mantra to shooting quick/accurate shots is knowing how fine a sight picture you need to hit the size target you need
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  #48  
Old 03-24-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
He was behind cover at a stakeout when 3 armed robbers entered. The followup investigation determined that they were all about 60-75 feet (25 yards) from Jim when he started shooting. Two perps were behind customers and in one case, he only had a 6" window in which to take the shots on a moving head.
Well that explains it. There were people in the way at 70 feet. I don't know of anyone that would take shots like those without concentrating real hard on the sight picture. I'll bet he closed one eye to shoot as well. The scenario I painted was pitch dark with gun flashes pointed at you. Trust me, return fire would be reflexive as you were diving for cover.

Quote:
Mine were made by Ned Christensen of Michiguns

The rear is a tube mounted sideways under the notch. It is mounted from underneath so it can't be dislodged when the gun is knocked about...this is a duty gun that I also carried while off-duty
Thanks for the info. I'll definitely have to check them out. How do you like them? Are they as good as I imagine them to be? If not, that blows my theory of the perfect night sight.
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  #49  
Old 03-24-2013, 11:53 AM
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Just a couple of quick thoughts, all based on the assumption that the individual involved has decent skills.

1) Night sights aren't designed to help you shoot targets that are in the dark, they are designed to help you find the sights when the gun is in the dark. The presence of night sights on your gun have nothing to do with target identification.

2) Under truly high stress situations such as those involving shooting at someone or someone shooting at you, it is unlikely that you are going to get a solid sight picture. That type of self discipline is rare. Anything you can do to provide rapid conformation of your weapons presentation to your target is probably a good thing as long as it doesn't add to the complexity of the action. You want something that functions at an instinctual level, not something that must be deliberately processed or performed. A single tritium front sight provides that.

3) Ghost rings on shotguns rarely provide anything other then more profit for the manufacturer and the marketing department. They tend to be a little slower to get on target and require more drop built into the shotgun stock system. The increased drop usually expresses it's self by increasing felt recoil and muzzle flip. The exception is when you are trying to use the shotgun as a rifle which it does poorly regardless of the sighting system. When you are trying to sell $350 shotguns for $800 you have to add something visual to them or nobody will buy them so you add sights that set way too high above the bore centerline, paint it black, and call it the tactical model.
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  #50  
Old 03-24-2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by k1dude View Post
Well that explains it. There were people in the way at 70 feet. I don't know of anyone that would take shots like those without concentrating real hard on the sight picture. I'll bet he closed one eye to shoot as well.
He doesn't mention focusing hard, just seeing the sights...but he does speak of not realizing that he was the one pulling the trigger when the shooting started. It was the classic subconscious shooting while the conscious is making the shooting decisions (where and when to shoot)

While he wasn't shooting very quickly...the crime scene reconstruction showed that he hit all three felons, with his 6 shots, in about 3 seconds...I'd think he'd want to be aware of where the other ones where moving while he was shooting the first.

Quote:
Trust me, return fire would be reflexive as you were diving for cover.
Does that mean you've been a situation where you were shooting reflexively while diving for cover...like seen in the video clip of the 2 NYPD officers in the sidewalk shooting?

Quote:
Thanks for the info. I'll definitely have to check them out. How do you like them? Are they as good as I imagine them to be? If not, that blows my theory of the perfect night sight.
It rather depends on how easily you are able to center the front dot over the rear bar...balancing the length of the bar on either side of the dot.

It demonstrated to me that a rear night sight element wasn't needed to place accurate shots on target
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  #51  
Old 03-24-2013, 12:21 PM
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I agree with 9mm and believe that he is on point here.

Everything he has addressed or "described" about having a proper sight picture is dead on with what I learned and practiced as a kid when I was given my first BB gun, then later with a 10-22, and then honed that much further when I enlisted in the Army.
I am no "expert" self-proclaimed or otherwise. However, "front sight focus, through the notch of the rear sight" is how I was taught buy my father, grandfather, & again from various instructors in the Army.

Now, with that said.....My 1911 has 3-dot night sights, as that's how it came from the factory. Since I really don't worry about them, they dont realy bother me. One day down the road, the rear sight will be replaced with a black sight.
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  #52  
Old 03-24-2013, 12:26 PM
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Looks like a modified version of Ned's shield driver sight? While it may not be the most cutting edge option, I'm a sucker for the gold bead front sight.
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  #53  
Old 03-24-2013, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Cyc Wid It View Post
Looks like a modified version of Ned's shield driver sight? While it may not be the most cutting edge option, I'm a sucker for the gold bead front sight.
I don't think he has a name for it when he made it. Mine was the first SIG 220 he had had in the shop and he needed to make a fixture for it to machine in the Conamyds.

All I asked him for is a rear sight that wouldn't float above the SIG slide's convex top and wouldn't snag on the draw. I was really surprised at the shape his solution took when I got it back. I asked that the slide be beveled and he talked me into de-hooking the trigger guard and beveling the magwell.

I'm currently a large fan of the gold/brass bead front for a working gun too
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  #54  
Old 03-24-2013, 1:51 PM
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Originally Posted by XVIga_Rob View Post
Now, with that said.....My 1911 has 3-dot night sights, as that's how it came from the factory. Since I really don't worry about them, they dont realy bother me. One day down the road, the rear sight will be replaced with a black sight.
So when you look down your sights you're not distracted by the rear dots? The sad thing is I installed a 3 dot set on my 1911 and with dry fire practicing I'm starting to see what you guys are talking about, that is how "busy" the sighting system becomes. I'm hoping I can learn to ignore the dots or just become proficient with sighting with the dots on this setup...
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  #55  
Old 03-24-2013, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
Does that mean you've been a situation where you were shooting reflexively while diving for cover...like seen in the video clip of the 2 NYPD officers in the sidewalk shooting?
Once again, it was daylight. And IIRC they weren't being fired on. And it was on a crowded sidewalk. NO ONE would condone firing without using the sights in that situation. Apples and oranges.

Quote:
It rather depends on how easily you are able to center the front dot over the rear bar...balancing the length of the bar on either side of the dot.

It demonstrated to me that a rear night sight element wasn't needed to place accurate shots on target
I didn't realize the bar was so long in the sight picture that you had to center the dot. That isn't what I'm envisioning. I'm talking about something more like the AmeriGlo CAP sights but using tritium for the bar:

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  #56  
Old 03-24-2013, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by XVIga_Rob View Post
Now, with that said.....My 1911 has 3-dot night sights, as that's how it came from the factory. Since I really don't worry about them, they dont realy bother me. One day down the road, the rear sight will be replaced with a black sight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by myk View Post
So when you look down your sights you're not distracted by the rear dots? The sad thing is I installed a 3 dot set on my 1911 and with dry fire practicing I'm starting to see what you guys are talking about, that is how "busy" the sighting system becomes. I'm hoping I can learn to ignore the dots or just become proficient with sighting with the dots on this setup...
I loose sight or focus of the rear dots/sight as soon as my eye hit's the front sight. The sights are very dim (light/no color) in daylight, but do light up in low & no light. Every night, I clear & function check, then with the lights off, practice raising & aiming my gun.

Thanks to this thread. I want to change my rear site tonight. Unfortunatley, I can't do that.
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Old 03-24-2013, 6:13 PM
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So you guys recommend no rear sights?? O with only front sights?
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  #58  
Old 03-24-2013, 6:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k1dude
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany
Does that mean you've been a situation where you were shooting reflexively while diving for cover...like seen in the video clip of the 2 NYPD officers in the sidewalk shooting?
Once again, it was daylight. And IIRC they weren't being fired on. And it was on a crowded sidewalk. NO ONE would condone firing without using the sights in that situation. Apples and oranges.
Were you going to address the first part of the question about your experience which leads you to believe that?
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  #59  
Old 03-24-2013, 6:21 PM
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So you guys recommend no rear sights?? O with only front sights?
Rear sight only. No front. Like this:



Just kidding.

They're talking about a plain iron rear sight with a tritium front sight, as per the OP's question.
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  #60  
Old 03-24-2013, 8:00 PM
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Were you going to address the first part of the question about your experience which leads you to believe that?
No. I've been shot at 4 times. 3 times with bullets and 1 time with rockets and RPG's. Unfortunately I was diving for cover without a weapon on me 3 of those times. 2 were daytime and 2 were twilight.
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  #61  
Old 03-24-2013, 8:26 PM
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Do you believe your reaction under those circumstances are even applicable to a civilian self defense shooting?
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Old 03-24-2013, 8:33 PM
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Do you believe your reaction under those circumstances are even applicable to a civilian self defense shooting?
I never said I was speaking from first hand experience. I'm using logic. When it's up close and personal and the guns are firing at you in the dark from point blank range (most shootings are less than 10 feet), I'll guarantee you won't be spending the time trying to find that illuminated front sight as the deafening muzzle blasts flash around you and you're running for cover while returning fire. To say otherwise is just.....foolish.
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  #63  
Old 03-24-2013, 8:48 PM
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I only ask because earlier you posted:
Quote:
Trust me, return fire would be reflexive as you were diving for cover.
Which would somewhat imply that you are basing it on experience rather than...whatever you are basing it on.

Quote:
When it's up close and personal and the guns are firing at you in the dark from point blank range (most shootings are less than 10 feet), I'll guarantee you won't be spending the time trying to find that illuminated front sight as the deafening muzzle blasts flash around you and you're running for cover while returning fire. To say otherwise is just.....foolish.
Now you're guarantying it and denigrating the experience of others who have been in real life situations.

It isn't often that you'll find a student of gunfights who would discount the experience of Sykes, Fairbairn, Applegate, Jordan, Atkins, Skelton or Cirillo

Quote:
I'm using logic
Logic is defined as knowledge combined with experience. When you lack one or the other, it is just fantasy...that is just basic philosophy
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Old 03-24-2013, 9:20 PM
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EDIT: eh...went back and read k1's other posts and realized my response had nothing to do with the topic. My bad.

Anyways, OP. After you shoot for a while, you're going to develop a preference for certain things. I found that switching out my stock sights for a wider rear U sight, and an Ameriglo Hackathorn front helped me acquire my sights faster than before, both in daylight and low-light situations. Some people prefer having three dots to line up, but I found that that's not how I like to run my pistol.

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Old 03-24-2013, 9:43 PM
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First sim, some perp started firing at me. Diving for cover, I did what you described. Panic took over, fundamentals went out the window, point fired without aiming, thinking I was all fast and ****. Got tased. Well, that sucked. Lesson learned.

Second sim, I did what 9mmepiphany described. Remembered all my fundamentals. Quick to the gun. Quick out of the holster. Punched out, sights aligned, hard focus on front sight, trigger straight to the rear...BANG. Equal pressure on the trigger after the shot? Good. Reset, sight picture...straight to the rear again. Perp went down.

Didn't get tased.

Take it for what it's worth. Maybe you're a point-shooting god, I don't know.
The instructor I was talking about earlier regularly runs timed house clearing scenarios for LEA's. He and his students score incredibly well point shooting compared to aimed shooting (time and hits). And that's with paper perps (they don't shoot back). If you throw the perps shooting back into the equation (if there were a way to simulate that), I'd bet his scores would drop substantially using both techniques. But I'll bet he still comes out on top with his point shooting.

One of his other students was telling me he was at a well known shooting school that constantly preaches sight picture. During their scenarios he wasn't doing very well, so on his last try he threw everything they taught him out the window and reverted back to his point shooting. He scored the top score out of his class by a huge margin on that last run. He didn't tell the instructors that he was using point shooting.

I guess it comes down to different strokes for different folks.

And as I've said before, I still look for my sight picture before I shoot. But my speed suffers accordingly.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:39 PM
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So just aim with your front sight only for "point shooting"?
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by XVIga_Rob View Post

Thanks to this thread. I want to change my rear site tonight. Unfortunatley, I can't do that.
Me too. I might just put the stock rear sight back into my 1911...
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NRai2001 View Post
So just aim with your front sight only for "point shooting"?
No. Point shooting is instinctive without using sights. I would recommend that anyone use both front and rear sights until you're very proficient. Lots of time and rounds downrange need to be under your belt. Then you can explore point shooting. And even then it's usually only useful at close range where most shootings take place and under less than ideal situations (like being jumped in low light in an alley). We deviated from the orginal discussion when other posters began questioning my thinking (sorry OP). We should try and get this thread back on track regarding front night sights versus front and rear night sights.
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Last edited by k1dude; 03-25-2013 at 12:11 AM..
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  #69  
Old 03-25-2013, 11:38 AM
Sunday Sunday is offline
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Too many dots to think about
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  #70  
Old 03-25-2013, 3:29 PM
tal3nt tal3nt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessegpresley View Post
In many peoples opinion 3 dot sights suck. Especially 3 dot night sights. We are taught to concentrate on our front sight, and to align the tops of our front and rear sights. So the two rear dots don't really do anything other than clutter our sight picture. A perfect sight alignment often means that the 3 dots are not aligned; so we have to ask, what's the point of the two rear dots?

I recently switched to a gold bead front and black rear on my Wilson and love it.

One thing is for sure, noobs love 3 dot night sights.
Precisely
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