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  #41  
Old 03-22-2013, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Heiko View Post
Penal Code section 198.5 is very instructive but also read CALCRIM instruction 3477 that expands upon 198.5 and read CALCRIM instruction 506 that instructs about defending against harm in one's home. Penal Code sections are the basics but the real law and where the rubber hits the road in court is in the CALCRIM instructions.
Good Stuff right there, thanks
  #42  
Old 03-22-2013, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by adchrome View Post
Wouldn't you think someone breaking through our B/R door is doing so with the intent to Harm
I might, but I'd want to be sure before I fired. I've had the hammer on a revolver more than half-way back, when an armed drunk finally stopped coming toward me. Believe me, I was happier then he was that I didn't have to shoot him that night

There are other legs that your actions will be judged on.

1. Was there indeed a real danger?
2. Was the reaction reasonable?
3. Did the shooter take steps to insure that his actions were reasonable?

The interesting thing is that it isn't for you to answer these questions, but it may be up to a jury, either criminal or civil, who will have the time to consider you actions as Monday Morning Quarterbacks in the comfort and safety of a jury deliberation room. What light will they see you in when they find that you didn't even try to positively identify your target...by even just shinning a flash light at them, or turning on the room lights... before firing.

I'd be much more worried about the civil consequences than the criminal...they only have to convince 2/3 of the jury that you were negligent
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  #43  
Old 03-22-2013, 11:51 PM
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
I might, but I'd want to be sure before I fired. I've had the hammer on a revolver more than half-way back, when an armed drunk finally stopped coming toward me. Believe me, I was happier then he was that I didn't have to shoot him that night

There are other legs that your actions will be judged on.

1. Was there indeed a real danger?
2. Was the reaction reasonable?
3. Did the shooter take steps to insure that his actions were reasonable?

The interesting thing is that it isn't for you to answer these questions, but it may be up to a jury, either criminal or civil, who will have the time to consider you actions as Monday Morning Quarterbacks in the comfort and safety of a jury deliberation room. What light will they see you in when they find that you didn't even try to positively identify your target...by even just shinning a flash light at them, or turning on the room lights... before firing.

I'd be much more worried about the civil consequences than the criminal...they only have to convince 2/3 of the jury that you were negligent[/QUOTE]
While this is VERY true, I'd rather be broke than dead.
  #44  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Your scenario is for LEO, not for a scared for their life citizen who has been awaken in bed by someone who broke their door down while they were asleep and are invading their home. If that person is calling 911, not protecting property but in fact scared for their lives and not pursuing the invader who comes toward them, shooting them IS justifiable.
Wow. Ok, maybe you'll understand this - you're Listening to Jimi but you're Not HEARING him!

9mmEpiphany broke it down for you nice and succinct and, apparently, it just went in one ear and out the other with no visible change in velocity.



Remember YOU brought up the whole "20 foot rule" to begin with...



Well, one of your assumptions IS correct - IANAL...

Last edited by retired; 03-25-2013 at 12:01 AM..
  #45  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Samuelx View Post
Wow. Ok, maybe you'll understand this - you're Listening to Jimi but you're Not HEARING him!

9mmEpiphany broke it down for you nice and succinct and, apparently, it just went in one ear and out the other with no visible change in velocity.



Remember YOU brought up the whole "20 foot rule" to begin with...



Well, one of your assumptions IS correct - IANAL...
And you need to remember that most LEO never got an education past high school. They are not lawyers either.

Thats why my LEO friends who i have known for 30 years still think that a loaded mag in a locked case with a firearm is still considered a loaded firearm in their eyes.

Last edited by retired; 03-25-2013 at 12:01 AM..
  #46  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:17 AM
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OH BTW! The conviction rate for a 'bad shoot' in the OP's scenario is 5% statewide in CA. Generally speaking, as some more liberal counties skew the results.
  #47  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
And you need to remember that most LEO never got an education past high school. They are not lawyers either.

Thats why my LEO friends who i have known for 30 years still think that a loaded mag in a locked case with a firearm is still considered a loaded firearm in their eyes.
I don't know which department they work for, but I think it says more about your friends than LE in general...especially in CA.

When I retired a couple of years ago, I don't think anyone I knew didn't have some kind of college degree...that included a Ph.d, 4 MAs and 3 JDs

Our local PD required a BA to even apply to the department.

When I joined the SO, 30+ years ago, everyone had at least an AA/AS
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  #48  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
I don't know which department they work for, but I think it says more about your friends than LE in general...especially in CA.

When I retired a couple of years ago, I don't think anyone I knew didn't have some kind of college degree...that included a Ph.d, 4 MAs and 3 JDs

Our local PD required a BA to even apply to the department.

When I joined the SO, 30+ years ago, everyone had at least an AA/AS
In todays standards an AA/AS is like junior high. Don't get me wrong i am almost 50.

People i am referring to are SFPD and San Mateo SO respectively along with municipalities in San Mateo County. LOTS of behind the times and misinformed LEO IMHO.

My information came from the DA of our county. NOT a deputy DA but the DA himself.
  #49  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
I don't know which department they work for, but I think it says more about your friends than LE in general...especially in CA.

When I retired a couple of years ago, I don't think anyone I knew didn't have some kind of college degree...that included a Ph.d, 4 MAs and 3 JDs

Our local PD required a BA to even apply to the department.

When I joined the SO, 30+ years ago, everyone had at least an AA/AS
Not to get to off topic... I think LEO's were smarter and better equipped mentally when they were NOT legal eagles who thought they were lawyers.

Thats just my personal opinion though. I think today, cops with legal degrees are a danger to our society because they are trying to practice law as an LEO.

Thats bad IMHO
  #50  
Old 03-23-2013, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany View Post
I might, but I'd want to be sure before I fired. I've had the hammer on a revolver more than half-way back, when an armed drunk finally stopped coming toward me. Believe me, I was happier then he was that I didn't have to shoot him that night

There are other legs that your actions will be judged on.

1. Was there indeed a real danger?
2. Was the reaction reasonable?
3. Did the shooter take steps to insure that his actions were reasonable?

The interesting thing is that it isn't for you to answer these questions, but it may be up to a jury, either criminal or civil, who will have the time to consider you actions as Monday Morning Quarterbacks in the comfort and safety of a jury deliberation room. What light will they see you in when they find that you didn't even try to positively identify your target...by even just shinning a flash light at them, or turning on the room lights... before firing.

I'd be much more worried about the civil consequences than the criminal...they only have to convince 2/3 of the jury that you were negligent
after reading CALCRIM instruction 3477 that a member posted I can see where you are coming from,

I will definitely get the Flashlight put on my weapon, after thinking about this more he could not break the B/R door down while taking aim at the light in his eyes,

yea no way to tell which way a Jury would go but all that matters to me is my wifes safety.

its a crying Shame that an intruder has more Rights than a Home Owner Defending his home
  #51  
Old 03-23-2013, 1:52 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Not to get to off topic... I think LEO's were smarter and better equipped mentally when they were NOT legal eagles who thought they were lawyers.

Thats just my personal opinion though. I think today, cops with legal degrees are a danger to our society because they are trying to practice law as an LEO.

Thats bad IMHO
Taperxz are you a cop or a lawyer? I'm having a hard time following the logic behind your personal opinion.
  #52  
Old 03-23-2013, 2:07 AM
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Open carry would have prevented this.
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  #53  
Old 03-23-2013, 2:15 AM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Not to get to off topic... I think LEO's were smarter and better equipped mentally when they were NOT legal eagles who thought they were lawyers.

Thats just my personal opinion though. I think today, cops with legal degrees are a danger to our society because they are trying to practice law as an LEO.

Thats bad IMHO
ORLY?

As a cop who became a lawyer and went back to being a cop, and was valued as a cop who had a better insight into the system and ancillary considerations of our actions, I don't think you have a clue at all. I gave legal updates and briefings to the department as well as provide advice to the higher ups when new legal developments come around. My reports are thorough and detailed, don't get kicked back from the WC, and I enjoy a good reputation with the local D.A. when it comes to filing.

I have other friends who are also cops with law degrees as well as cops who have their law license, making them lawyers as well. They are all very valued in their departments and have never done boneheaded things or endangered the public by practicing law while on duty.

Do you know that having a law degree alone doesn't entitle you to practice law in any capacity? As a matter of fact, practicing law without a law license is a crime in every state in this union.

Why don't you stick to something you know about instead and leave the rest of this to the ones who actually know.
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  #54  
Old 03-23-2013, 2:51 AM
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adchrome,
I think what 9mm and some of the other LEO's are trying to suggest is that though your actions in your initial scenario would likely pass muster to keep you out of criminal court, why not consider a few simple steps to drill/think about NOW that could help keep you from at least paying out in civil court (light on/with your weapons system, identifying target first, etc).

As an interesting drill, set up your house one night like it would be when you go to sleep. Then take whatever light you are going to use (whether its a tac-light for your shotgun or an actual flashlight) by itself and have someone (maybe your wife the first time and then you as the second time) act like the "bad guy" and enter your bedroom in total darkness. Have the "victim" hit the "bad guy" with a quick on/off beam of light. Then count how long it takes you to be able to see again. You will be amazed at how effective you can use light to your advantage in such a situation.
  #55  
Old 03-23-2013, 3:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
Not to get to off topic... I think LEO's were smarter and better equipped mentally when they were NOT legal eagles who thought they were lawyers.

Thats just my personal opinion though. I think today, cops with legal degrees are a danger to our society because they are trying to practice law as an LEO.

Thats bad IMHO
What are you talking about?
  #56  
Old 03-23-2013, 5:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CBR_rider View Post
adchrome,
I think what 9mm and some of the other LEO's are trying to suggest is that though your actions in your initial scenario would likely pass muster to keep you out of criminal court, why not consider a few simple steps to drill/think about NOW that could help keep you from at least paying out in civil court (light on/with your weapons system, identifying target first, etc).

As an interesting drill, set up your house one night like it would be when you go to sleep. Then take whatever light you are going to use (whether its a tac-light for your shotgun or an actual flashlight) by itself and have someone (maybe your wife the first time and then you as the second time) act like the "bad guy" and enter your bedroom in total darkness. Have the "victim" hit the "bad guy" with a quick on/off beam of light. Then count how long it takes you to be able to see again. You will be amazed at how effective you can use light to your advantage in such a situation.
Thats a Great idea, I will for sure try that, along with drills for Different scenarios Regarding time of day, I realize it does not always happen while asleep.... yea i understand the point 9mm and some of the others make,

Thanks all of you for the insight, very informative, and Sorry this turned into a Lawyer vs. Leo Discussion
  #57  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:12 AM
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...... saying that you are armed.....just doesn't get the job done to a freak that is bulldozing his way into your home. i would fire one round into the ceiling. this absolutely lets the intruder know that you have a OPERATIONAL firearm. secondly, this serves as a OPERATIONAL check to assure you that your safety is not on, and your weapon works. third.....after hearing a weapon fire, and the intruder still insists on knocking down your door, this will eliminate all hesitation and doubt on your part that the person is NOT OF RIGHT MIND, on needs to be violently terminated.
  #58  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:31 AM
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I'm amazed more people haven't posted the PC for the intruder breaking down the door. I don't know it off the top of my head but there is a PC that says if someone beaks down your door/Window there is automatically a presumption of a threat of great bodily harm or death. So you can legally use deadly force whether armed or not. Obviously there are limitations to that but in the scenario you gave I would have no problem shooting.

Now as far as the light goes, get one. If your hold up in a room and announced your armed you already gave away your position, having a light will not only help you identify your target, it will also blind them and temporarily throw them off, giving you a few more precious seconds to act.
  #59  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:31 AM
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What are you talking about?
He has no idea either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adchrome View Post
Thanks all of you for the insight, very informative, and Sorry this turned into a Lawyer vs. Leo Discussion
Don't be sorry. Not your fault he is an idiot.
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  #60  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:35 AM
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...... saying that you are armed.....just doesn't get the job done to a freak that is bulldozing his way into your home. i would fire one round into the ceiling. this absolutely lets the intruder know that you have a OPERATIONAL firearm. secondly, this serves as a OPERATIONAL check to assure you that your safety is not on, and your weapon works. third.....after hearing a weapon fire, and the intruder still insists on knocking down your door, this will eliminate all hesitation and doubt on your part that the person is NOT OF RIGHT MIND, on needs to be violently terminated.
I seriously hope you are joking. Where do you think the round goes when you shoot it into your ceiling? You got a lot of stuff up there that can stop a bullet or do you just want extra ventilation and water drainage into your room?

You might as well take your double barrel shotgun out to your balcony and fire two rounds into the air or shoot a round through your door. Your advice is about as good as Uncle Numbskull Joe Biden.
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  #61  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:51 AM
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My information came from the DA of our county. NOT a deputy DA but the DA himself.
I have to admit I don't know Don Anderson professionally, but I have usually found DAs to be more political animals and gladhanders than the working ADAs who have to brief them before they speak in public. Granted, I am a bit bias, as I do have friends who are ADAs and APDs...yes, we all joke about the same things together.

I've had ADAs and APDs come out for ride-alongs and we had a good time...we all work in the same gray area

Quote:
I think LEO's were smarter and better equipped mentally when they were NOT legal eagles who thought they were lawyers...I think today, cops with legal degrees are a danger to our society because they are trying to practice law as an LEO.
While I have met cops with a JD who were quite full of themselves, they were like that before they got their degrees...they were a bit more unbearable after the passed the Bar...and it didn't make them better or worst cops.

What legal training did for them was make the language less confusing and teach them that how the law is printed has less to do with how it is applied than how Court rulings have interpreted them.
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  #62  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:54 AM
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I seriously hope you are joking.

You might as well take your double barrel shotgun out to your balcony and fire two rounds into the air or shoot a round through your door. Your advice is about as good as Uncle Numbskull Joe Biden.
I was hoping that too...maybe he just forgot to add the smilie
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  #63  
Old 03-23-2013, 9:56 AM
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What legal training did for them was make the language less confusing and teach them that how the law is printed has less to do with how it is applied than how Court rulings have interpreted them.
Once in a while a concise bit of great information shows up on a forum.

Well done!
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:11 AM
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Thats a Great idea, I will for sure try that, along with drills for Different scenarios Regarding time of day, I realize it does not always happen while asleep.... yea i understand the point 9mm and some of the others make,

Thanks all of you for the insight, very informative, and Sorry this turned into a Lawyer vs. Leo Discussion
Adchrome you're very welcome. No need to apologize. You've been a perfect gentleman and started some great substantive discussion with your posts.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:33 AM
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"i would fire one round into the ceiling..."

Very bad idea! Hope that was a joke.

I can tell the OP from personal experience (I'm retired LEO) that one of the many questions asked by homicide investigators is lighting conditions (day or night). They WILL test whatever light you claim and weapon used. They will test the lights in your bedroom and/or hallway. Other related questions might be ....do you wear glasses? Were they on when you shot? How much time did you have to put on your glasses between threat and shot(s)? Hearing aids (same type of questions). How far away do you THINK the threat was away from you? Type of weapon you saw in his/her hands? Color of the weapon (blue vs chrome)? What was the suspect's actions, movements, verbal responses, clothing & etc? The investigators will also look at the scene from the suspect's view point. The above is just related to your observations (hearing included) since the subject of lights/threat assessment was brought up.

Then multiply this by two because your wife will be asked the same types of questions to see if statements are consistent. The responses don't have to be dead on (no pun intended), but reasonably consistent.

Either way its a very ugly situation and I hope you never experience it.

Last edited by oddjob; 03-23-2013 at 10:36 AM..
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:54 AM
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I'm just wondering how identifying a target (using some kind of light) Vs. firing blindly in the dark degraded into a pissing match. Now I don't know if it was my father that drilled into my head always know what you are shooting at, or the section on liability at firearms instructor course. Either way I still feel that shooting blindly in the dark is a bad idea. It may be justified and legal to do so given circumstances, but that doesn't mean it is smart.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:10 PM
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I have to admit I don't know Don Anderson professionally, but I have usually found DAs to be more political animals and gladhanders than the working ADAs who have to brief them before they speak in public. Granted, I am a bit bias, as I do have friends who are ADAs and APDs...yes, we all joke about the same things together.

I've had ADAs and APDs come out for ride-alongs and we had a good time...we all work in the same gray area


While I have met cops with a JD who were quite full of themselves, they were like that before they got their degrees...they were a bit more unbearable after the passed the Bar...and it didn't make them better or worst cops.

What legal training did for them was make the language less confusing and teach them that how the law is printed has less to do with how it is applied than how Court rulings have interpreted them.
Yep, jerks are jerks no matter if they are a cop, lawyer or judge... or just some numbskull posting on the interwebz.
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  #68  
Old 03-24-2013, 4:01 AM
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Very interesting read. The OP got a lot of specific information to follow up on here.

One more way you could handle your situation might be to install a motion sensor/light in that dark hallway, or at other pertinent locations.

IFF/ Identify Friend or Foe. Just one more way to avert trouble.
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  #69  
Old 03-24-2013, 9:32 AM
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You break my door down in the middle of the night, I'm shooting your *****. I have 2 little girls to protect and sitting around to identify the target and contemplating the legalities of my actions might very well be the demise of my family. Quit beating a dead horse. Stand up for your life and your family and shoot the bastard.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by nine mil thrill View Post
...... saying that you are armed.....just doesn't get the job done to a freak that is bulldozing his way into your home. i would fire one round into the ceiling. this absolutely lets the intruder know that you have a OPERATIONAL firearm. secondly, this serves as a OPERATIONAL check to assure you that your safety is not on, and your weapon works. third.....after hearing a weapon fire, and the intruder still insists on knocking down your door, this will eliminate all hesitation and doubt on your part that the person is NOT OF RIGHT MIND, on needs to be violently terminated.
uncle joe is that you
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:41 PM
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I went to go look for "how to own a gun and stay out of jail california 2011" but it's like $70! Sound like a great read though. I'm always pondering scenarios in which I question the use of deadly force.

BTW, I guess I'm the only one who likes #1 buck for my shotgun. I like the thought of 16 .30" pellets a lot more then 9 larger ones. I wouldn't go smaller if you want 12" of penetration.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:24 AM
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I really don't understand why anyone who is not a leo (active or retired) or an attorney, would even think they should be posting any answer to the OP's question. Also, the insult about most leos only having a high school education is just that; an insult and should not have been posted. Another one of those broad brush statements without evidence to back it up. Furthermore, since this is the leo forum, it is not permitted in the first place.

For those offering opinions as to how they would shoot to kill the intruder or shoot a warning shot into their ceiling, you might want to bone up on some of the laws; including penal, statute and case law. It might save you jail or prison time.

Since the OP has received some valuable info from leos and an atty./leo, there is no reason for this thread to continue as it has served its purpose.

One last thing; insults directed against other members is not permitted, so I would strongly suggest no one use them. Thank you.
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