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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #81  
Old 03-17-2013, 5:30 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakersfield_Grizzly View Post
Berm has been very effective for the folks that live there
So they have successfully repelled an organized armed attack on their compound?
Quote:
...they are billionaires...
KEY word here
Quote:
Their purpose is privacy and security. Make something look inconspicuous and fortify it, and you have something that only someone who is really anxious to crack is going to try.
There is a big difference between providing privacy (and having the cops show up to deal with the nosy paparazzi that climb the berm) and protection against an armed attacking force, where you have to keep them on the outside of the berm or die.

No matter how many cameras they install they CAN'T keep intruders out without enough defenders on the berm to continuously cover it's entire perimeter.
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  #82  
Old 03-17-2013, 5:53 PM
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OP

Your Best defense is staying hidden away. Is it well know or Obvious that there is a House there ? Are you expecting a raiding party to accidentally stumble on to it? or specifically come for it ?

Judging by your map your biggest danger would be a raiding part traveling the Minor highway and upon discovery of locations 1 & 2 proceed towards your home to Investigate the possibilities of easily obtainable supplies.

1) Now your First line of defense is Misinformation. I would highly recommend Acquiring a sign of some sort that would suggest the road leads to something of no Interest to anyone. It could be an open area or a city dump. This Obviously wouldn't fool the locals but might work with someone who has never been to the area. In case of SHTF I would Place it a few Hundred Yards beyond where your Property would be visible From.


2) If you still have a raiding party coming that Ignored Misinformation. Your best Bet is to control their actions. Play a game of Chess with them Give them a Perceived Opening that is actually the Place where you can concentrate the defenses on. Make the woods around the house Hard to travel in Forcing them take the road and then Concentrate on defending the road.

3) Don't be Attached to the Property Don't force yourself to defend something that you cant. If defense is Impossible Just Leave. Have a campsite set up in the mountains that you can retreat to at the moments notice. Along with this Don't keep all your gear and supplies in one spot.

Last edited by AleksandreCz; 03-17-2013 at 5:55 PM..
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  #83  
Old 03-17-2013, 6:04 PM
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Have a vehicle loaded with supplies, when overrun drive it away from the home to an area completely cleared, but close enough to the woods to sneak in at night to resupply. Disable the car. Then snipe anyone going near from a secure mountain area.
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  #84  
Old 03-17-2013, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Stan08 View Post
I talk about this in detail during my SHTF seminars.
Wow! Great website & credentials, I am definitely going to sign up for some classes once I can scrap together some extra funds. Would it be worth taking the carbine course w/ an AK?
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  #85  
Old 03-18-2013, 6:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AleksandreCz View Post
OP

Your Best defense is staying hidden away. Is it well know or Obvious that there is a House there ? Are you expecting a raiding party to accidentally stumble on to it? or specifically come for it ?

Judging by your map your biggest danger would be a raiding part traveling the Minor highway and upon discovery of locations 1 & 2 proceed towards your home to Investigate the possibilities of easily obtainable supplies.

1) Now your First line of defense is Misinformation. I would highly recommend Acquiring a sign of some sort that would suggest the road leads to something of no Interest to anyone. It could be an open area or a city dump. This Obviously wouldn't fool the locals but might work with someone who has never been to the area. In case of SHTF I would Place it a few Hundred Yards beyond where your Property would be visible From.


2) If you still have a raiding party coming that Ignored Misinformation. Your best Bet is to control their actions. Play a game of Chess with them Give them a Perceived Opening that is actually the Place where you can concentrate the defenses on. Make the woods around the house Hard to travel in Forcing them take the road and then Concentrate on defending the road.

3) Don't be Attached to the Property Don't force yourself to defend something that you cant. If defense is Impossible Just Leave. Have a campsite set up in the mountains that you can retreat to at the moments notice. Along with this Don't keep all your gear and supplies in one spot.
Really appreciate it.
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  #86  
Old 03-18-2013, 8:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_In_29 View Post
VERY valid recommendations.

Is it really worth the effort to retake an indefensible position??

Despite the Call of Duty fantasies, even the BEST trained units still take casualties in those types of hit-and-run attacks, so a rag tag group can only fare worse.

How long before it's reduced to ineffectiveness and the women/children are left to fend for themselves.

A war of attrition really doesn't work if you have no way to readily replace your losses.

No suggesting outright retaking of the compound. I am talking about long range harassment, hit and run. Not interested in attrition at all.

You didn't just call me a keyboard jockey("Call of Duty fantasies"), did you? LOL. That's cool man, I don't mind. I'll depend on my "Call of Duty" training.
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  #87  
Old 03-19-2013, 12:36 PM
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No suggesting outright retaking of the compound. I am talking about long range harassment, hit and run. Not interested in attrition at all.
If you aren't actually trying to kill them (attrition) then what's the point of continually risking injury/capture/death just to harass them? So they go away and you can return to a location that you still can't defend? Plus you might just get them mad enough to come looking for your new base of operations.
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You didn't just call me a keyboard jockey("Call of Duty fantasies"), did you? LOL. That's cool man, I don't mind. I'll depend on my "Call of Duty" training.
Cheers
Actually the comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just at the unrealistic expectations that a lot of people seem to have on here.

Though if you think video games are what you need then go for it but personally I prefer to depend on my real life training from the Marines that taught me to make valid assessments of the viability of a course of action, rather then a fantasy game with a reset button and cheat codes.

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  #88  
Old 03-19-2013, 12:51 PM
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Gentle members, we are moving into a package-measurement competition here, and that is off topic.
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  #89  
Old 03-19-2013, 12:56 PM
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You have my respect for your service. I dont play games nor do I depend on them for strategy and tactics. I thought that by putting quotes around "call of duty" and being sarcastic that would come out. Guess not. No problem.
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  #90  
Old 03-19-2013, 1:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HPBrowningMK3 View Post
You have my respect for your service. I dont play games nor do I depend on them for strategy and tactics. I thought that by putting quotes around "call of duty" and being sarcastic that would come out. Guess not. No problem.
Thank you.

Sorry I misunderstood but your sarcasm just came off as being "sarcastic" and not as you disavowing the gamer mentality. My comments as to the validity of your tactics still stand though.
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  #91  
Old 03-19-2013, 2:12 PM
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We can agree to disagree and that is fine with me.
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  #92  
Old 03-19-2013, 2:42 PM
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Originally Posted by HPBrowningMK3 View Post
We can agree to disagree and that is fine with me.
In that case would you care to elaborate on what you hope to accomplish with your harassment attacks? Perhaps I am just misunderstanding what your intent is.
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  #93  
Old 03-19-2013, 3:09 PM
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A couple o' three things to add:

1) booby traps. Chances are you will all have livestock whether it be very expensive cattle or horses or even chicken tractors. Your expensive, hard to replace animals will wander into those booby traps and your milk production, steer to fatten or breeding project will come to an abrupt end. Is it worth it?

Oh yes, wives who never listen to their husbands will also wander into things. Don't ask me how I know that.


2) "Dwindling"/harassment/retaking of indefensible terrain: If your homestead/doomstead/red x property was where you grew food and kept livestock, it may very well be worth retaking especially since things like good tilthy soil and mature fruit/nut trees cannot be put in a BOB and hauled off to the mountains. That soil and those trees represent an agriculture based future and most ground that is fertile and productive also happens to be flat and level and therefore not that defensible. It seems like it'd be worth it to expend a few .338 Lapua rounds from 1400 yards away to get it back. Perhaps if you have to bugout, you can plug the sewer so the raiders have to step outside to drop a deuce. Maybe you'll get a couple of them that way. Who knows.

3) when you bugout in a hurry, maybe you could leave some refreshments laced with liberal amounts of ricintoxin, Amanita or whatever other Assorted Nasties you can come up with. I think a nice hearty pasta with meatballs and deathcap mushrooms left on the stove seems worth trying.
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  #94  
Old 03-19-2013, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Chaparral View Post
A couple o' three things to add:

2) "Dwindling"/harassment/retaking of indefensible terrain: If your homestead/doomstead/red x property was where you grew food and kept livestock, it may very well be worth retaking especially since things like good tilthy soil and mature fruit/nut trees cannot be put in a BOB and hauled off to the mountains. That soil and those trees represent an agriculture based future and most ground that is fertile and productive also happens to be flat and level and therefore not that defensible. It seems like it'd be worth it to expend a few .338 Lapua rounds from 1400 yards away to get it back. Perhaps if you have to bugout, you can plug the sewer so the raiders have to step outside to drop a deuce. Maybe you'll get a couple of them that way. Who knows.
Absolutely. And this is done with a number of like minded people who specialize in different things. To do it alone would be extremely hard. Number 1 req being at least marksman level shooter. Second thing is this is all planed before anything happens and there are redundant well practiced plans in place to bug out and retake the place. Third, you know your general area like the back of your hand and there are multiple safe locations where you'd store your various weapons, food and water at *the first sign of real crisis*. Those emergency storage locations are fully booby trapped once SHTF.

To me,the biggest danger would be looters and they would never be very disciplined and organized(or anyone else for that matter) to withstand a well thought out long range "cutting off the snake's head" strategy.
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  #95  
Old 03-19-2013, 7:55 PM
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Military rule of thumb says it takes a force of 10 to 1 to drive out a entrenched opposing force. They also say that most attacking forces withdraw at 20 percent casualties. Facing liked armed attackers we could repel most any group. When the rest of the neighbors show up from all sides things are going to get ugly.

The supposition that the bad guys are going to be a overwhelming force is absurd. My wife shoots better that 99% of most pilgrims and she is the weakest shooter in our group. The attackers are going to be hungry and low on supplies, that is the reason they are attacking. Even in my little community the bad guys are going to be facing a bunch of very mad locals. I would say my county has more guns and ammo per capita than anywhere in the state.

1400 yard shots, laughable. Only made by the top snipers in the world. There isn't going to be a bunch of them running around as criminals. Way too much TV being watched here. Booby traps and poison, Really ? Shoot at my home home and we will slip out the back flank you and kill you. We do know every rock, tree and shrub on the place, we live here.

I would never abandon my home. It is where all my food, and supplies are and my ability to survive.

You city folk need to learn what a sense of community and family is. We do practice what we preach. All the rest of this is crap.

I'm done with this fantasy thread. Good luck getting out of the city.

Look up the term "cannon fodder"
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  #96  
Old 03-19-2013, 8:24 PM
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You wanna put some money on that 1400 yards shot with me in June? 1000 bucks says I will make 4 out of 5 kills with it. That will make it worth my while. My lowly Savage 338 lapua and me, nothing special about us.

Let me know.

Last edited by HPBrowningMK3; 03-19-2013 at 9:02 PM.. Reason: spelling edit
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  #97  
Old 03-19-2013, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
I would never abandon my home. It is where all my food, and supplies are and my ability to survive.

You city folk need to learn what a sense of community and family is. We do practice what we preach.
Hi Kevin. I’m sorry to see you go. You’ve shared good insight and perspective from someone who lives in the kind of area I’m headed to. Some of the things on this thread may seem to poke hard at ideas held dear….of home….family….traditions. Those are not easy things to mess with and the only intent is to come up with other points of view. Something that’s been missed or missing….in order to have a better outcome….for whoever, whatever, and whenever. We want to live according to our own rules and this thread was meant to be a playbook for when rules change. NOT a city folk vs rural folk battle and it’s my apology if it’s seemed to turn into that.

====================

Below is some helpful info I came across a few years ago that may be applicable to the discussion. Posted verbatim, these are not my words nor are they from copywrited sources. This may be something that everyone at a location, and even the neighbors, learns ASAP once the SHTF. Please let me know what you guys think.

>> The other thing that occurs to me is that if raiders have military training, this is what you may be facing on your counterattack. <<

Immediate Action Drill (IAD)
If you’re not experienced, you really need to formulate your IAD.
When I was doing COIN ops, we had a few and they were simple and easy to adopt.

A) The enemy sees you first: assault charge towards them
B) You see the enemy first: lay an instant ambush
C) You and the enemy see each other at the same time: assault charge towards them using supporting fire and movement. Which works very well if you’re in a section (8-16), platoon (25-60), or company strength (70-250) with associated fire power.

If you’re on your own, the simple Dash-Down-Crawl-Observe-Sights-Fire is what you should learn (DDCOSE). The dash is never more than 3 steps, then hit the dirt, crawl into cover. Observe: where did the fire come from? Adjust sights for distance/ open scope covers. Fire if a clear target presents itself, or to cover your further withdrawal. If unarmed, obviously skip the fire part, try to establish your escape route. Running towards whoever is shooting at you is never conducive to survival.

Everything needs to be practiced. If you don’t, none of your IAD will be muscle memory.

D) Over 30 meters, run for cover. Most people aren’t that great with a gun. The ones that are, well, you’ll know already.
E) Under 30 meters, aim for their dick, shoot until they stop moving, then shoot them in the head. Then find cover and look for their friends. If you’re lucky they will come to find out what the noise is and you can kill them too.
For the serious professional, this doesn’t necessarily apply but it worked fairly well in Iraq and the Philippines.

The more guns you have in a fight (with competent operators behind them) the better off you are.

A word of advice: have a pistol and a knife on your strong side hip. If **** comes to shove, drop your primary and go for the pistol. If that doesn’t work, get very active with the knife as fast as you can. If you find yourself in that position, when you stand up (if you stand up) you will be a bad mother****er. Then grab what you can and run like hell.

[Name deleted] we did the same basic drills in the Canadian Army, the only thing that I can add to that would be that when you are on the move, you are scanning for potential trouble and you are, at the same time, checking out the immediate area around for cover/ fire positions.

[Name deleted] very true. The only other thing is I’d say never underestimate any opponent. Unless you have solid intel on [raiders] never underestimate anyone.

I tried paint balling for that but really found it hard to gel with the awkwardness of the paint ball guns and their strange 2-finger triggers and gas canister. Also found it hard to take it seriously and tried more to shoot fat guys to see the look of shock on their faces. I spent the whole time laughing and berating my team members for cowering behind obstacles when a concerted assault on the opposing team would have routed them. ****ing civilians, think they’re going to live forever.

=============
end quote

Last edited by Exocet5; 03-19-2013 at 10:24 PM..
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  #98  
Old 03-20-2013, 9:12 PM
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Interesting. Edited to say "Good post" as I haven't read the whole thing and now will have to do that over the next couple of days.

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Originally Posted by Exocet5 View Post
How would you determine the best/better place to defend the property and your group?
The way I figure, if you're shootin from your windows, you've already lost!!
Yes, and moreover hiding in the house will put you in the already lost part against determined "raiders." Most bullets go right through stucco and sheetrock not to mention how easy it is to burn the house down if you are hiding in it.
Far fetched idea but escape tunnels..
More plausible (right now) prep covered/concealed egress routes and routes to firing positions.

Quote:
First 1-3 days
1) Inventory all defensive items & munitions; clean and lube, load magazines, properly secure from children/prying eyes. Start a simple logbook with description & function of each item.
2) Quick inventory of all food items, medical supplies & equipment. Check the water situation.
3) Quick evaluation / minor adjustments to all vehicles noting fuel level, tires, problems, etc. Top off fluids, air up tires, spare tires. Park in a defensive position such as pointing toward the road.
4) Examine local maps noting roads, streams, lakes, other notable locations.
5) Survey the property noting natural boundaries, obstacles, wooded features, natural defensive positions.
> Take ranges and create range cards from shooting from designated positions
> Repair downed fences and gates if possible
> Chain & lock lockable gates
> Repair and/or install flood lighting (if applicable)
> Scan the property from tentative defensive locations
> Establish a simple procedure of locking doors and securing windows at nite

5) Create some kind of 'master butcherpaper' tasksheet detailing
"Need to do (now)
Need to do (soon, sooner, later)"
&
"Current Tactical Situation or SWOT analysis: Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats (including wild animals)". Something like that.
My next thought. Do all this ^ Now, not in the first 3 days of SHTmfF.

Quote:
Days 4-7
1) Begin to establish a nighttime or 24 hour watch depending on the situation
2) Detailed sitdown conversation / evaluation with all family members (kids included) of the neighbors and other likely avenues of threats (ie 100k city 2 hours away). Put those thoughts onto paper.
3) Gun safety refresher sessions
4) Do's and don't's of the current situation
5) Figure out communications....FRS radios? Something else?
6) Start to dig a forward observation post ????
7) ????? NOW WHAT ??????
Again, most of the above can actually be done NOW. Have this all prepared, thought out, and rehearsed.

Quote:
I know the concept is to create a path that "steams" raiders into firing lanes.....???

By the way, I have started to read the tactical classic Defense of Duffer's Drift
http://www.colonialwargaming.co.uk/R...oads/Drift.pdf

This is also a useful article from the fictional viewpoint of a raider:
http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/10/..._your_wor.html
Duffer's Drift is wonderful for the basics and overall guidelines. Each situation will be significantly different for actual physical changes you may or may not make.
The second link is new to me, thank you.

A concept to keep in mind while doing preparations... "Speak softly but carry a big stick."

Don't look like a defensible position, read: something valuable is here, but be in a position to defend. Look like an everyday common poor old house, read: doesn't catch the attention of potential looters as a target.

Last edited by -aK-; 03-20-2013 at 9:28 PM..
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
Military rule of thumb says it takes a force of 10 to 1 to drive out a entrenched opposing force. They also say that most attacking forces withdraw at 20 percent casualties. Facing liked armed attackers we could repel most any group. When the rest of the neighbors show up from all sides things are going to get ugly.
Maybe the terrain and neighbors favor you but I can tell you that at our BOL the terrain is flat to gently rolling and the neighbors are mostly aging hippies, clueless young people and retirees. All the buildings currently on site are stickbuilt with a thin layer of wood siding, tar paper, sheetrock and paint to stop projectiles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
The supposition that the bad guys are going to be a overwhelming force is absurd. My wife shoots better that 99% of most pilgrims and she is the weakest shooter in our group. The attackers are going to be hungry and low on supplies, that is the reason they are attacking. Even in my little community the bad guys are going to be facing a bunch of very mad locals. I would say my county has more guns and ammo per capita than anywhere in the state.
The community surrounding our BOL is probably short on guns and ammo and people in general with a combat mindset. In a real WROL situation a lot of bad guys might be former law enforcement and military. Precious few of us in our current group would have the skillsets to go toe to toe with such folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
1400 yard shots, laughable. Only made by the top snipers in the world. There isn't going to be a bunch of them running around as criminals. Way too much TV being watched here.
1400 yards with a .308 maybe. 1400 yds with a .510 DTC or other large calibers ain't such a stretch anymore. I'm a firm believer in having bigger hammers. If my opponent shows up with .223 ARs at 400 yards, I want to return fire with .308s at 700 yards. If he shows up and starts lobbing .308 rounds from 700 yards, I want to return fire with a .50 from 900 yards. A number of properties I've looked at would permit me to do exactly that. Numerous parcels along Hwy 101 or Hwy 76, 78 and 79 have high steep rocky slopes behind flat arable land. If I had to retreat, I'd retreat to high ground with hard cover. Our current BOL does not have that option. The OP's location looks kinda gently rolling as well with limited ranges.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post

I would never abandon my home. It is where all my food, and supplies are and my ability to survive.

You city folk need to learn what a sense of community and family is. We do practice what we preach. All the rest of this is crap.

I'm done with this fantasy thread. Good luck getting out of the city.

Look up the term "cannon fodder"
You've more confidence in your situation than I have in mine.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Exocet5 View Post
I tried paint balling for that but really found it hard to gel with the awkwardness of the paint ball guns and their strange 2-finger triggers and gas canister. Also found it hard to take it seriously and tried more to shoot fat guys to see the look of shock on their faces. I spent the whole time laughing and berating my team members for cowering behind obstacles when a concerted assault on the opposing team would have routed them. ****ing civilians, think they’re going to live forever.

=============
end quote
Paintball leads to bad habits. Its usefulness is EXTRAORDINARILY limited. The guns aren't very accurate and the projectiles don't have very much range. A cardboard box is hard cover to a lot of players. Engagement distances are CQB close, not the 100 to 1000 yards I prefer. Maybe in thick brush where visibility is only 30 feet or in buildings it is useful.
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Old 03-21-2013, 5:28 PM
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You will always lose when pinned down unless you have enough people to go out and stop the threat. For example The Branch Davidians and Randy weaver and his family tried to hold out and defend themselves. It didn't work out and never will.
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  #102  
Old 03-21-2013, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunday View Post
You will always loose when pinned down unless you have enough people to go out and stop the threat.
It's 'lose'...but whatever.

He's right. I can sit out there at 300-400 yards and pick you and your group off at will. You will be paralyzed until you come out and stop me. I will see you coming and move out until you get tired of looking and when you go back home, I'll start up again. I know where you are and you have no idea where I am. The only thing I would fear are dogs. I can hide from you, but not dogs. Will you have trained dogs? And you have to be willing to sacrifice people to get me. Are you ready for that? Will you post OP's and LPs? The military figures casualties into any plan, but will you?

The point is, you can't just hunker down and build bunkers and hope to survive. It's REALLY REALLY hard to defend a fixed position from a determined attacker. A casual, untrained, poorly armed group will probably give you little trouble, but the trained and determined person (or group) will take you down. You will always lose unless you are willing to go outside the wire and hunt them down effectively and take casualties. Because they will inflict casualties before you get them.

Look at history. All castles, no matter how well defended, always fall. It's just the nature of a fixed position. You simply cannot hold out forever.

The best defense is either a coordinated, well armed, well trained group willing to take proactive action (and casualties) or keeping a very low profile so you don't become a target. And being willing and able to bug out when you're getting overrun if you do become a target.

Just nailing plywood over your windows at your tract house and sitting in the kitchen with your 870 and your case of MRE's is not going to work when I want to take if from you.
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Old 03-21-2013, 9:03 PM
Bakersfield_Grizzly Bakersfield_Grizzly is offline
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Originally Posted by olhunter View Post
It's 'lose'...but whatever.

The only thing I would fear are dogs. I can hide from you, but not dogs. Will you have trained dogs? And you have to be willing to sacrifice people to get me. Are you ready for that? Will you post OP's and LPs? The military figures casualties into any plan, but will you?

The point is, you can't just hunker down and build bunkers and hope to survive.

Look at history. All castles, no matter how well defended, always fall. It's just the nature of a fixed position. You simply cannot hold out forever.

The best defense is either a coordinated, well armed, well trained group willing to take proactive action (and casualties) or keeping a very low profile so you don't become a target. And being willing and able to bug out when you're getting overrun if you do become a target.
Gunny, I hear you loud and clear, (And I really appreciate your service and your skills) but I think the thread is really aimed at what can be done to fortify a piece of land so that several families of grandpas and grandmas, a few moms and dad's and a few teens can ward off a few bands of raiders not necessarily trained marines or military.

I would think that besides setting the hounds loose, there would be some productive ways to set up 20 acres to give yourself some ability to survive a period of time? I agree with most of the folks, when faced with odds you cannot hold out from, you gotta get out and git to somewhere you can survive for a while.

I am sure you and the other Marines can and would swarm and destroy an enemies position, but most of the Marines I know wouldn't do it to most citizens. Most would do what it took to stay alive and might hunt what they need, but I would be more concerned with the hordes coming from the cities that have never skinned a deer or never prepared for what might come.

Any constructive advice?
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Old 03-21-2013, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Bakersfield_Grizzly View Post
I am sure you and the other Marines can and would swarm and destroy an enemies position, but most of the Marines I know wouldn't do it to most citizens. Most would do what it took to stay alive and might hunt what they need, but I would be more concerned with the hordes coming from the cities that have never skinned a deer or never prepared for what might come.

Any constructive advice?
The danger isn't at the outset.

The threat is what happens when Darwin's done his work. With enough time after "The Event" , the only bad guys left will be the smart ones who know their stuff.

Right now only the "good guys" know enough to do some serious damage. But when the SHTF, the School of Hard Knocks is a fast teacher, especially in an environment without law to hold anyone back. Being engaged by a gang of expert crooks with real-world firefight experience is almost a certainty if you look ahead far enough. When it does, you will either run or die in place.

Remember-the crew who attacks your property years into the End of the World probably's done it multiple times before. You'll be fighting for your life against experts probably for the first time, or at best the second or third time. Your enemy will have raided enough people to the point its a routine. Its amazing how good at something you get when you've done it tens of times beforehand.

IMO, a smart homeowner knows their limits and plans accordingly. If you're trying to hang on to multiple acres with a family of 4, two of whom are completely unfamiliar with war or combat tactics, its probably wiser to invest in escape and evasion options then to plan on a last stand. As revered as the Alamo is to our history, we must remember that the Mexicans eventually captured the fort.
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  #105  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by olhunter View Post
It's 'lose'...but whatever.

He's right. I can sit out there at 300-400 yards and pick you and your group off at will. You will be paralyzed until you come out and stop me. I will see you coming and move out until you get tired of looking and when you go back home, I'll start up again. I know where you are and you have no idea where I am. The only thing I would fear are dogs. I can hide from you, but not dogs. Will you have trained dogs? And you have to be willing to sacrifice people to get me. Are you ready for that? Will you post OP's and LPs? The military figures casualties into any plan, but will you?

The point is, you can't just hunker down and build bunkers and hope to survive. It's REALLY REALLY hard to defend a fixed position from a determined attacker. A casual, untrained, poorly armed group will probably give you little trouble, but the trained and determined person (or group) will take you down. You will always lose unless you are willing to go outside the wire and hunt them down effectively and take casualties. Because they will inflict casualties before you get them.

Look at history. All castles, no matter how well defended, always fall. It's just the nature of a fixed position. You simply cannot hold out forever.

The best defense is either a coordinated, well armed, well trained group willing to take proactive action (and casualties) or keeping a very low profile so you don't become a target. And being willing and able to bug out when you're getting overrun if you do become a target.

Just nailing plywood over your windows at your tract house and sitting in the kitchen with your 870 and your case of MRE's is not going to work when I want to take if from you.
During WW2 Saint Petersburg was never taken Moscow was never taken And they are not even castles.
A determined Defender can outlast any attacker with enough food ammo and water.
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  #106  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:24 PM
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AleksandreCz, with all due respect, its not as simple as it seems. Back then you had commie Commissars authorized and willing to shoot anyone to death who retreats, HUGE military and political machine organizing the defense, Russian Orthodox Church to whip up a patriotic fervor and calling upon all people in USSR to defend the motherland and defeat the Germans. Big difference, my friend.

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  #107  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:36 PM
AleksandreCz AleksandreCz is offline
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Originally Posted by HPBrowningMK3 View Post
AleksandreCz, with all due respect, its not as simple as it seems. Back then you had commie Commissars authorized and willing to shoot anyone to death who retreats, HUGE military and political machine organizing the defense, Russian Orthodox Church to whip up a patriotic fervor and calling upon all people in USSR to defend the motherland and defeat the Germans. Big difference, my friend.
That's what I mean by Determined. If you've made a conscious derision to lay your life down for something you aren't going to give up to quickly or easily.
When I was in the service we had some some terrorist dig in so hard that the only way to get them out was air support. They just would not budge we could sit there for hours and pick off the stupid ones and lob Mortars at them Until we got bored or ran out of mortars. But they just would not surrender the cave no matter what even if there wass nothing in the cave.
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  #108  
Old 03-22-2013, 12:45 AM
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I would recomend landmines. Have a landmine feild and mark it with a sign! Make sure to fence it off so that wild animals wont wander onto it. This works good for a walled compound. No one would want to attack your compound once one of their guys blows up! hehe They will leave you alone exept for the most determined of forces. Make sure there is a moat around the minefeild so that they cant just run a car through the feild to clear a path.
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  #109  
Old 03-22-2013, 6:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AleksandreCz View Post
During WW2 Saint Petersburg was never taken Moscow was never taken And they are not even castles.
A determined Defender can outlast any attacker with enough food ammo and water.
Entire cities are completely different than a fortified fixed position.
And without resupply, which you won't have in a fixed position when under siege, you'll eventually run out. Of everything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakersfield_Grizzly View Post
...I think the thread is really aimed at what can be done to fortify a piece of land so that several families of grandpas and grandmas, a few moms and dad's and a few teens can ward off a few bands of raiders not necessarily trained marines or military.

Any constructive advice?
Ok.

The most basic thing is restricting access. For both foot and vehicle traffic. Trenches, walls, log piles, rock piles, concertina wire (I know, I know).
That takes work. Lots of work, but necessary.

Then you MUST have 24-hour sentries posted. Or dogs. Dogs are awesome. You don't want to wake up with raiders standing over you and your sleeping family with no warning.

You need an alarm or alert system. Everyone should have a least whistles with whistle codes for communicating. 3 quick whistles 'danger' or 'attackers', etc. You get the idea. Radios are good too, but you need batteries.

You should post at least one person as a sentry during the day. That person is armed with something that can put lead downrange quickly. AR, SKS, even a 10/22 if that's all you have.

Everyone needs to be taught how (and when!) to open fire and shoot someone. Ideally, everyone has at least a sidearm at all times.

You have to run drills for various scenarios so everyone knows what to do and where to go when 'x' happens. Keep practicing.

Then hope for the best and have a plan for bugging out. A stash of gear at an agreed upon rally point will help if you really get caught with your pants down and you have no time to do anything but run.

There's lots of other things that could be done, but those are the basics.

Again, this will work against random, untrained wanderers who think they may have an easy target. Even the dumbest raider is probably not going to just walk in the front gate hoping to take over, but ...lol...never underestimate the stupidity of people. And don't underestimate the ingenuity and determination of starving people either.

Have a plan for what to do when a woman and her 5 little kids show up and want to be taken in. Will you? What if it's a man and 1 kid? What if he's a spy doing recon on your defenses? It's just something to think and talk about with the group before it happens because it probably will.
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  #110  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:24 AM
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Every good castle has a back door. If need be, you can slip out and lay low, let the rats clean the poisoned crumbs from the cupboards.
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  #111  
Old 03-22-2013, 4:27 PM
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Although I've seen several references to South African farmers' experiences and their fortified homes/ranches in this thread, I haven't yet seen a link to this historical writeup with details on the actual fortifications, tactics, and their use against raiders (including guerrillas with rockets: IIRC chain link fence is your friend for warhead predetonation): http://www.rhodesia.nl/farmeratwar.html

Also, there's a fairly well-thought-out and well-written series on farm/ranch security at the lizard farmer's blog, especially on building prepared cover positions and obstacle development: http://thelizardfarmer.wordpress.com...the-homestead/

Finally, if the OP has not yet read James Wesley Rawles' Patriots, he should -- at least the first half of the book, which has the bulk of the details about hardening of the retreat and an imagined successful defense against a raid. Lots of food for thought there, whatever you may think of the book generally.
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Last edited by Davidwhitewolf; 03-22-2013 at 4:34 PM.. Reason: fixed a typo
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  #112  
Old 03-22-2013, 4:53 PM
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You fellow cal gunners know a lot, way more than most including me. But, what can be done with this

> 15 irregulars, ages 14-60.
Assume 3 @ 14-16yo's,
3 @ 20-30's,
2 @ 40's,
7 @ 50-60-early 70's

And the picture of the property.

It would be great if, if, the original poster had all the resources possible, but what can be done with his posted resources.

I feel as if this thread has taken a tangent on theory, but needs to be out in practice with what is there.
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  #113  
Old 03-23-2013, 1:05 PM
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Originally Posted by olhunter View Post
The only thing I would fear are dogs. I can hide from you, but not dogs. Will you have trained dogs?
anyone got any ideas on this? I know Rotts and Shepards and whatever are popular but those are big and eat a lot. A big dog runs a good chance of getting shot the first time it finds a real predator and then all that training, feeding, rearing is lost forever.

Anyone think that running beagles or some other breed might work as a sentry system? I can feed at least four 13 inch beagles for the cost of one larger dog. I'm thinking a dozen beagles to three shepards or Rotts in terms of cost and upkeep. Mine is a good sentry for four legged intruders.

I don't need the dog to attack. It'll just die in the process. I want my dog(s) to harass from dense cover and raise a loud rukus.
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  #114  
Old 03-23-2013, 4:39 PM
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.. imagine a drone with biological, easily done. If you aren't in a hardened place..

Kiss your butt good by.

It's been proven many times before. If you can't get airborne, select a captive audience, like Tokyo's Sarin gassing.

Caos is most easily infused through air, food and water. Areas where the US is painfully slacking.
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  #115  
Old 03-23-2013, 7:32 PM
AleksandreCz AleksandreCz is offline
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Originally Posted by Chaparral View Post
anyone got any ideas on this? I know Rotts and Shepards and whatever are popular but those are big and eat a lot. A big dog runs a good chance of getting shot the first time it finds a real predator and then all that training, feeding, rearing is lost forever.

Anyone think that running beagles or some other breed might work as a sentry system? I can feed at least four 13 inch beagles for the cost of one larger dog. I'm thinking a dozen beagles to three shepards or Rotts in terms of cost and upkeep. Mine is a good sentry for four legged intruders.

I don't need the dog to attack. It'll just die in the process. I want my dog(s) to harass from dense cover and raise a loud rukus.
Dogs are only useful for alerting you to a presence of a stranger. Also depending on how they alert you they might also give away your location if it is unknown. If they attack they will be shot. I personally see them as more of a liability than a benefit.
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  #116  
Old 03-24-2013, 7:29 PM
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I agree with AleksandreCz's. If you are gonna use the dogs, don't use them for passive defense, because they can be taken care of in so many ways.

Mine can track and do bitework and would ultimately be used offensively.
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  #117  
Old 04-10-2013, 2:39 PM
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There are a couple blogs by people who survived real-life SHTF situations, both in Bosnia, and in Argentina.

http://www.tacticalintelligence.net/...nd-account.htm

https://docs.google.com/a/dreamworks...kexh9DH3kMYeOE

Two very different situations.
One more military in nature, and one more criminal/economic.

Both of them advocate large groups, which it sounds like you would have.
Both of them advocate being very low-key. Even if your house is well-
fortified, and well-defended, pile up junk to make it look like a dump.
The guy in Bosnia said that the first places the gangs raided were
the big compounds with lots of supplies. With 100 armed gang
members, they would overrun a house with 10 defenders.
But they would pick that house because it looked appealing.
Like it would have food, guns, etc. If your house looks like
rubble, junk, etc, no one will bother. So for me, I really
think the best option is to stay as hidden as possible,
and have as many escape routes as possible.

The guy in Argentina put forth a much different scenario,
which really made me think. His situation was economic
collapse, but not total government collapse. So there
were still laws, police, jails, etc. But response times
were terrible. But if you killed someone without reason,
you could end up in jail. So you could not snipe at
potential attackers from a distance. The people who
would attack you, would always look like totally
normal people. And life was still going on. You
still had to go to work, still had to go into town,
go trade with people, etc. So you were often at
risk from ambush attacks. Some guy comes up
to the gate of your farm, asking to trade, and you
can't just shoot him as a trespasser. But when you
go to talk to him, even to tell him to leave, his
friend takes a shot at you from behind a nearby tree.
The situation he described was much more difficult.
Like living life now, but with much more fear of criminals.
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  #118  
Old 04-10-2013, 4:24 PM
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Wow! Thanks for those two links; incredible! I read just a bit of each; I'll probably save both of them later to read over and over again; thanks dude.
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  #119  
Old 04-10-2013, 7:20 PM
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Now, I know I'm late to this party, but when we say multi-acre, are we talking less than 5 or more than 20? Is the attacking force expected to be mounted or dismounted? Fire team, squad, platoon, company sized element? Civilian arms only, or captured military gear? Availability of explosives? Knowledge of explosives manufacture? Materials on hand?

Personally, to defend a large area containing several buildings, I would want, at minimum, a squad sized element with rifles, nvg's. I would want tank traps at entry points, sandbags/equivalent cover at various defensive positions, command det HME devices at my ECP and internal chokes (both antivehicle and antipersonnel), a few loyal, obedient, large, aggressive outdoor dogs, a rotating watch schedule, and several vehicles staged ready to take on planned exit routes, primary, secondary, or tertiary.

Efforts to consider useless: obstacles meant to stop personnel, defensive aids that highlight your forces' positions, untrained members of your team participating.
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  #120  
Old 04-10-2013, 8:38 PM
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Olhunter has it right. You will have to engage the intruder (s). One man can cause extreme mental anguish to a family by shooting a young member, injuring someone far enough from a building to make recovery a deadly affair or killing someone through a window. The intruder does need to be careful about his transit in and out, and take his sweet time verifying his approach plans, but he has a luxury you don't - foreknowledge. I'll take the intruder's side every time unless there are:
Good, or just nosey neighbors
Dogs, and not just one or two house mutts
Too few avenues of approach or lanes of fire

I can come back from different approaches, use the rising or setting sun to hide me, disable vehicles, wreck propane storage, puncture solar arrays, place holes in your roof in winter.....

To keep your place safe, you will need patrols and a very hard heart - and a great deal of luck. If I were to take the side of the homesteader, I'd want people around me.... cooperative people that won't turn on me when the situation encourages it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by olhunter View Post
It's 'lose'...but whatever.

He's right. I can sit out there at 300-400 yards and pick you and your group off at will. You will be paralyzed until you come out and stop me. I will see you coming and move out until you get tired of looking and when you go back home, I'll start up again. I know where you are and you have no idea where I am. The only thing I would fear are dogs. I can hide from you, but not dogs. Will you have trained dogs? And you have to be willing to sacrifice people to get me. Are you ready for that? Will you post OP's and LPs? The military figures casualties into any plan, but will you?

The point is, you can't just hunker down and build bunkers and hope to survive. It's REALLY REALLY hard to defend a fixed position from a determined attacker. A casual, untrained, poorly armed group will probably give you little trouble, but the trained and determined person (or group) will take you down. You will always lose unless you are willing to go outside the wire and hunt them down effectively and take casualties. Because they will inflict casualties before you get them.

Look at history. All castles, no matter how well defended, always fall. It's just the nature of a fixed position. You simply cannot hold out forever.

The best defense is either a coordinated, well armed, well trained group willing to take proactive action (and casualties) or keeping a very low profile so you don't become a target. And being willing and able to bug out when you're getting overrun if you do become a target.

Just nailing plywood over your windows at your tract house and sitting in the kitchen with your 870 and your case of MRE's is not going to work when I want to take if from you.
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