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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 03-21-2013, 8:33 PM
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Default gas piston vs gas impingement

is the only benefit of running a piston rather a impingement added reliability?
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  #2  
Old 03-21-2013, 8:36 PM
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gas+piston+vs+gas+impingement
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  #3  
Old 03-21-2013, 8:39 PM
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There is also the benefit of it runs cleaner, my LWRC is easier to clean than my Noveske for normal maintenance cleaning.

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Old 03-21-2013, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cprieto View Post
There is also the benefit of it runs cleaner, my LWRC is easier to clean than my Noveske for normal maintenance cleaning.

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in your opinion, is it worth the extra coin?
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Old 03-21-2013, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by beararms2nd View Post
in your opinion, is it worth the extra coin?
and the weight too? (if I recall many, MANY threads on impingement vs. piston here)
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Old 03-21-2013, 9:30 PM
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I'll be nice and say at most that is speculation and everyone has their own opinion.

But if you want to talk about real world and not about how the average CGNer shoots 200 rounds through whatever AR he has at the local shooting range then immediately after spends 3 hours cleaning it, the fact is, your just in the wrong forum. The success of the AR (DGI system) so far ahead of a GPU it isn't even funny, it is comparing a champian fighter to an amatuer. Real world talk, the furthest I've heard a DGI AR has ever been taken was by EAG Tactical to 50,000 rounds. The furthest I've ever heard a GPU get taken was 19,000 rounds, it was an LWRC and it broke. It didn't need a cleaning, the parts didn't wear out, it frickin broke. And unlike a standard AR, you can only take a GPU AR to one company to get it fixed, the manufacturer. GPU's failed in the 60's, they failed in the 80's and while they have found some success now, they are slowly bleeding. The panic buying pumped more life into them, but they are going away. Bottom line is nothing is perfect, most problems are operator error, and no design is going to fix operator errors. You should be more worried about how to use your guns, not what guns will be "magical".
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Old 03-21-2013, 9:37 PM
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Umm I would stick with google.. there has got to be numerous threads where this has been hashed out.

DI has worked in the AR platform since day one.
AKs are piston.
The piston system is heavier then a DI system
Piston systems run cleaner in the lower and upper no hot dirty gas.
It probably isn't worth the extra 500 but it's a matter of preference and opinion.

What kind of piston system are you looking into ? A conversion or factory direct?

and
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Old 03-21-2013, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cprieto View Post
There is also the benefit of it runs cleaner, my LWRC is easier to clean than my Noveske for normal maintenance cleaning.

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And much less recoil/flip when shooting rapid fire/full auto. It is a much more pleasurable shooting experience.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh3239 View Post
I'll be nice and say at most that is speculation and everyone has their own opinion.

But if you want to talk about real world and not about how the average CGNer shoots 200 rounds through whatever AR he has at the local shooting range then immediately after spends 3 hours cleaning it, the fact is, your just in the wrong forum. The success of the AR (DGI system) so far ahead of a GPU it isn't even funny, it is comparing a champian fighter to an amatuer. Real world talk, the furthest I've heard a DGI AR has ever been taken was by EAG Tactical to 50,000 rounds. The furthest I've ever heard a GPU get taken was 19,000 rounds, it was an LWRC and it broke. It didn't need a cleaning, the parts didn't wear out, it frickin broke. And unlike a standard AR, you can only take a GPU AR to one company to get it fixed, the manufacturer. GPU's failed in the 60's, they failed in the 80's and while they have found some success now, they are slowly bleeding. The panic buying pumped more life into them, but they are going away. Bottom line is nothing is perfect, most problems are operator error, and no design is going to fix operator errors. You should be more worried about how to use your guns, not what guns will be "magical".
I agree with basically everything you said. Wasn't the test done on the LWRC with the old 2 piece bolt carrier I recall that was the part that broke the new LWRCi bolts are one piece.

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Originally Posted by Jet Setter View Post
And much less recoil/flip when shooting rapid fire/full auto. It is a much more pleasurable shooting experience.
Are you saying that a GP AR has less recoil/flip? If that's what your saying what GP AR are you talking about? Because that hasn't been my experience.


OP you asked if the added cost of a GP upper is worth it. Personally I don't think so if you just lube your BCG and use good magazines the DI gun will run like a champ. I owned a LWRC M6A3 and while it was a cool gun I sold it and built 2 DI guns YMMV.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:14 PM
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhena81 View Post
Are you saying that a GP AR has less recoil/flip? If that's what your saying what GP AR are you talking about? Because that hasn't been my experience.
Gas piston AR's have MORE perceptible recoil than Direct Impintment AR's.
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  #12  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:20 PM
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I have one of each. A DI AR rifle by BCM and a Piston AR rifle by POF.

Piston is more reliable but heavier, good for sbr's. DI is more accurate and lighter, good for dmr's.

For accuracy, I prefer my DI AR rifle. Out of the box i was shooting 1" groups @ 100 yrs bench rest with iron sights. I also feel that my DI AR shoots a little "softer" compared to my piston AR.

I read the article posted by BCM on their torture test only using Slip2000 and never cleaning the rifle. The rifle was wiped with a rag once at about 19k round count, and continued to shoot well past the 23k count.

Bottom line, the DI AR platform has been around for over six decades. It is a proven design. It is the most accurate general military service rifle in the world. If you take care of the DI AR by cleaning it regularly, it will take care of you. I like Piston AR's but they are too heavy and pricey. Unless i have to deploy to an area that is likely to experience sand storms, the extra cost of buying a piston upper is just not worth it.
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  #13  
Old 03-22-2013, 6:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beararms2nd View Post
is the only benefit of running a piston rather a impingement added reliability?
Cleanliness tends to increase reliability and the DI disadvantage is propellant
gas being blown directly into the action parts and fouling them rather quickly.

Bottom line: Piston systems stay clean and reliable longer than DI systems.
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Old 03-22-2013, 6:30 AM
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it's like AK vs AR:
-AR is lighter
-AR less recoil
-AR more accurate

-AK is more reliable (water,sand)
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  #15  
Old 03-22-2013, 6:52 AM
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Beat me to it.
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  #16  
Old 03-22-2013, 7:29 AM
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Beat me to it.
You guys are normally so quick. Finally got one in
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  #17  
Old 03-22-2013, 7:47 AM
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Here's two 14.5 carbines. With the exception of the Spikes lower on the DI AR, there are no cheap parts here. DI AR has a Noveske MUR1a upper with a BCM BHF mid length socom profile barrel.


Untitled by Starsnuffer, on Flickr

Which do you think is more accurate? I'll give you a hint, it isn't the DI gun.

Which do you think weighs less? I'll give you a hint, it isn't the DI gun.

Which do you think has less recoil? That depends on which comp you like. The battlecomp has negative recoil (pushes down slightly).

Which is smoother? It's the DI gun, but that's because it has an adjustable gas block and light (JP) action spring. It won't shoot anything but m855 or hotter unless I retune the gas, in which case it stops shooting smoother.

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  #18  
Old 03-22-2013, 8:00 AM
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I have both GP and DI. I like shooting both but I prefer GP. The Marines just opted to use the HK416, will it prove to be better? I dont know, i just think that GP it's going anywhere. In fact, i think it will improve. Don't get me wrong, DI is proven and it served me well when I was active duty but if I had a choice I would go piston all the way. Like everyone else have said it's reliable, runs cool, and easy as hell to clean. Test drive both and see what fits your needs best. Just my .02......
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Old 03-22-2013, 8:16 AM
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The bolt carrier and upper receiver of the AR is not designed to function with an operating rod, which nearly every upper advertised as a gas piston on the market uses. Companies offering gas piston AR15 rifles have made some work arounds on the carriers to attempt to keep the BCG from beating up the upper receiver, but eventually, they just wear out.

You see, when the rod pushes on the face of the carrier it tilts the rear of the carrier downward. Most companies have enlarged the back of the carrier to help eliminate most of this tilt, but they can not elimiate it entierly and now all of that downward pressure is in your (relatively week) buffer tube. The real problem however, is that pressure is applied to the bolt lugs unevenly and the bolt attempts to unlock under this uneven pressure. This eventually leads to lugs breaking and uneven bolt/chamber wear. Nealry every gas psiton unit on the market will eventually suffer from this under extended or hard use.

There is one piston unit that I have had the pleasure of handling that alleviates these problems. The carrier rides in rails elimintaing the uneven lug pressure and carrier tilt. The entire upper receiver and carrier have been re-designed. This makes it more expensive however, as the parts are unique to that system. It is the most reliable piston design I have seen yet and the short stroke sytem it uses should not increase perceived recoil any more than a gas impigment system. Then again, it is no longer an AR15, but a whole new rifle designed to drop onto an AR15 lower.

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Old 03-22-2013, 10:23 AM
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they all use a piston its all in the location of the piston
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beararms2nd View Post
is the only benefit of running a piston rather a impingement added reliability?
This might help answer some of your questions. Larry Vickers take on DI vs Piston. http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1330876&postcount=1

I have shot both and like both. I say get what you want, but when looking at your budget, take into consideration that ammo, mags, slings, lights, training etc all cost money as well.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:39 AM
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This has been hashed out so many times. Unless you're regularly shooting suppressed on full auto with a barrel less than 14.5", there is no need for a piston gun over a DI gun. Also, parts and maintenance-- there is no uniform manufacturing standard w/piston guns while with a DI gun you can pretty much interchange parts from any manufacturer because all the reputable makers follow the TDP. And, you still have to maintain and clean a piston gun. The HK 416 is a fine weapon, but even it has its drawbacks (and for the record, the MR556 is NOT a 416 and certainly not worth its price tag, IMO). For what most civvie shooters will do over here, a DI gun will more than adequately serve your needs. Keep it properly lubed and maintained and I guarantee you that you will have zero reliability issues with a quality DI gun.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:46 AM
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The Vickers article is good. I like to read & have checked out tons of Articles about DI vs Piston. I have only shot 2 piston AR's & while I liked them, I do like what I've had/have also.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:43 AM
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A lot of fanboys on the errornet read something and regurgitate it with absolutely no hands on experience whatsoever.

Listen to the people that have owned both, or at the very least ran them.

Here's my $.02:
1) the piston is only slightly heavier, you probably wouldn't notice.
2) the piston does recoil a little more. (I have a2 flash hiders on both my rifles, it's noticeable).
3) the pistons bcg stays a lot cleaner and cooler than the di.
4) the pistons hand guard gets hotter than the di's after long strings of continuos fire.
5) the di needs to be ran wet. With the piston, it's not as much of a concern to function reliably.
6) pistons are more expensive.

If you can afford it, buy what ever system that you like. It's your money! They both run well.

The only time I wouldn't consider a di gun is if I was going shorter than 14.5" or running a can.
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Old 03-23-2013, 7:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh3239 View Post
I'll be nice and say at most that is speculation and everyone has their own opinion.

But if you want to talk about real world and not about how the average CGNer shoots 200 rounds through whatever AR he has at the local shooting range then immediately after spends 3 hours cleaning it, the fact is, your just in the wrong forum. The success of the AR (DGI system) so far ahead of a GPU it isn't even funny, it is comparing a champian fighter to an amatuer.
Rubbish. I spent five years in the US Army, 1975-1980 and much of my time was spent dealing with (and being responsible for) the deficiencies of the M16A1 and its rotten gas impingement system. The bolt carrier groups were evaluated by Division inspectors to be "unserviceable" constantly due to the stress that the DI system puts on this most-critical component. These are facts that every soldier of that era knew and still does today.

The filthiness of the DI system and the bad effects that this has on the entire operating system of the M16A1 is a military legend. No one will ever know how many GIs lost their lives due to the jamming of these rifles caused by the filth that quickly builds up from firing them. The Army adapted and the M16 eventually became a competent firearm because the troops were required to become rifle cleaning fanatics. But this does not change the fact that the DI system, quite frankly, is sub-optimal.

To the average Calgunner, what a DI system means is a lot of rifle cleaning after each shooting outing. Nothing wrong with that, and personally I enjoy cleaning my weapons, at least in easy doses. When I got my first piston AR rifle I was quite literally astounded at how clean the rifle was after I put several hundred rounds through it. I will never again own a DI rifle.

Anyone who knows anything about engineering knows that everything is a trade-off in designing most anything, especially firearms. The piston system generally does involve a bit more weight towards the front of the weapon. This may or may not be an issue with a given shooter. Looking at all the stuff I see hanging on the front of the ARs at the range, I have to say that this does not seem to be much of an issue to most of my fellow shooters. And it is a small price to pay for a well-designed, clean-functioning rifle.
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Old 03-23-2013, 7:57 AM
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If Kalashnikov designed DI system.......
Well, AK wouldn't exist and neither would he (maybe his skeleton somewhere near former Siberian labor camp).
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Old 03-23-2013, 8:07 AM
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If Kalashnikov designed DI system.......
Well, AK wouldn't exist and neither would he (maybe his skeleton somewhere near former Siberian labor camp).
LOL!
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogervzv View Post
The filthiness of the DI system and the bad effects that this has on the entire operating system of the M16A1 is a military legend.
Although I agree with most of your post and I am myself a fan of piston systems in favor of DGI system, I do not believe the statement above to be correct.

I have attached two articles that refute the point.

1. The Big M4 Myth: “Fouling caused by the direct impingement gas system makes the M4/M4A1 Carbine unreliable.”

2. Keep Your Carbine Running (attached) by Pat Rogers.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Keep Your Carbine Running.pdf (745.5 KB, 23 views)
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:41 AM
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I believe this is asked more than how to clear herps on google...
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:50 AM
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:18 PM
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@rogervzv - I agree man. I spent 8 years in the Army and although the DI did its job I cleaned the damned thing more than I'd like to admit.
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Old 03-23-2013, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Oliver_Charles View Post
DI till I die. Decades of combat success. Reinvent the wheel.
Gas piston guys shoot paper targets.
Not true...sometimes I shoot steel
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Old 03-23-2013, 2:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickael81 View Post
Piston is more reliable but heavier, good for sbr's. DI is more accurate and lighter, good for dmr's.

For accuracy, I prefer my DI AR rifle. Out of the box i was shooting 1" groups @ 100 yrs bench rest with iron sights. I also feel that my DI AR shoots a little "softer" compared to my piston AR.
I'm thinking about getting an AR right now and wanted to get the piston system. I want the piston because I've had plenty on experience cleaning the gas tube in the military...and hate it!

Why would the piston affect the accuracy of the weapon? It doesn't seem logical to me.

Also, would you buy an AR right now, or with to see how the gun laws change?

Thanks,
Frank
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Old 03-23-2013, 3:08 PM
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I have no problems with carrier tilt.

clean it? Never had to.

Good luck getting a piston driven AR new..

LWRC said they are back ordered for 3 years or something like that.. and are trying to ramp up production.. they have a 75,000 piece back order at the moment.. 150 million dollars.. with commercial production @ 2000 a month.
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Old 03-23-2013, 3:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post
I'm thinking about getting an AR right now and wanted to get the piston system. I want the piston because I've had plenty on experience cleaning the gas tube in the military...and hate it!

Why would the piston affect the accuracy of the weapon? It doesn't seem logical to me.

Also, would you buy an AR right now, or with to see how the gun laws change?

Thanks,
Frank
Generally speaking it has to do with more moving parts. Practical accuracy won't be effected IMO if you have a gun that shoots around 4 MOA your GTG.

Buy an AR. DI vs GP for a civilian is splitting hairs just get one and decide for yourself. Going DI has its advantages like parts commonality I guess most people won't go through even high wear parts like the barrel in their lifetime. Like previously stated if your having issues with a quality DI gun its probably operator error like improper maintenance schedules, lack of lubrication, or out of spec mags.
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  #36  
Old 03-23-2013, 3:20 PM
beretta929mm beretta929mm is offline
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DI on AR is combat proven

The only piston operated AR I trust is HK 416.
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  #37  
Old 03-23-2013, 4:34 PM
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Donk310 Donk310 is offline
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I struggle to find the benefits of piston also. It's not anymore reliable, unless the person who says that has had some really bad DI's prior to.. and everyone I know with a piston system cleans it more often and diligently than I do any of my DI's. However, I have never owned one... so what do I know?
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  #38  
Old 03-23-2013, 4:47 PM
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The piston REALLY shines, if you're running a SBR with a bbl that's 12" or less.

Otherwise, there's nothing a piston does, that a DI rifle won;t do cheaper.

And yes, I DID own a piston rifle for three years (and ran it at two carbine courses), thanks for asking!

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  #39  
Old 03-23-2013, 7:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beretta929mm View Post
DI on AR is combat proven

The only piston operated AR I trust is HK 416.
Have you tried LMT cqb mrp?
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  #40  
Old 03-23-2013, 7:39 PM
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E92335i E92335i is offline
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After shooting my 516,

Clean piston and bore/chamber. That's it.
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