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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #41  
Old 03-07-2013, 7:06 PM
SilverTauron SilverTauron is offline
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Originally Posted by bigguns85 View Post
I forgot to mention the best way to defend a position is to harden the position. Make a multlayered defensive structure. If one position is compramised or close to it fall back to the next spot. Make sure that all the entrances to it are chocke points. One way the Japanise were able to defend from invasion so well was how their castles were desigend this way from invading sameri. You could have ports to shoot out of for your cover but as you retreat close them so they cant use them. This forces the to get slaugtered. I also recomend getting dragons teeth. These are used to stop tanks. This will prevent them from being able to use any vehicles or tanks they have gotten along their raiding partys. A good way to make them cheep is rebar them with your own homemade cement. A good minumum size is four feet high and at least three feet wide. If you want to go over kill with the dragonsteeth use a fence post to have it ancored in the ground. If you want a hardned structure you need to think castle and make sure everything is fire proof.
This is static thinking.


The trouble with a fixed position is that it works both ways. The bad guys cant get in-but you can't get out, either.

Siege warfare was a popular strategy in the distant past for a reason. You can't live in a sealed bunker forever. At some point you WILL exhaust your resources. It may take weeks or months, but the bad guys have the time. They can set up camp and re-supply as needed. You as the defender don't have that luxury. Once you run out of stores , game over. Your only option then is to starve in your fortress or surrender to your killers.


So, if you intend on defending the space you'll need a plan for actively counter-attacking whoever's trying to assault the place. That may not be possible in a situation where 10+ people are going against a family of 4.
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  #42  
Old 03-07-2013, 7:57 PM
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Librarian Librarian is offline
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
This is static thinking.


At some point you WILL exhaust your resources. It may take weeks or months, but the bad guys have the time. They can set up camp and re-supply as needed. You as the defender don't have that luxury. Once you run out of stores , game over.
However, since such fixed positions with the stores necessary to weather a siege of some length are the source of the supplies of the besiegers, there's no reason to assume a long siege. Easier to bypass and come back later.

Historically, sieges were raised when
* other requirements caused the besieging forces to move
* a relief force was near enough to threaten to or actually engage the besiegers (probably N/A here)
* sickness weakened the besiegers
* besiegers were unable to forage for enough supplies to stay
* besiegers were unable to cut off the besieged from resupply, and finally gave up
* a traitor opens a gate and the redoubt falls
* sickness in the strong point reduced the defenders beyond the ability to defend
* lack of supplies weakens the defenders beyond the ability to defend, as suggested here
* a message is received by the defenders ordering them to surrender (probably N/A here)
* a military or negotiated resolution is reached at a higher level, causing hostilities to cease. (probably N/A here)

ETA - 1 more, exemplified by Masada - garrison suicides rather than yield.
(And I did omit 'attackers win by assault' - climb the walls, break the gates, undermine the walls/towers, etc - and kill some or all of the defenders. No more siege after that.)

I don't recall reading of any where the besieged managed to sally and break the siege, but that's a possibility. As you point out, tough for a family of 4 to do against a larger force.
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  #43  
Old 03-07-2013, 9:02 PM
KevinB KevinB is offline
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And I will be protecting my home and family. So will my neighbors. Nothing is more important to us than our family's.

Freezing in the winter and deadly hot and summer. Your gallon camel back and will last you a couple of days at best and the 300 rounds of ammo you started with is dwindling and you buddy you started with bled out about a hour ago.

It seems like you are being shot at from several angles now and someone is very effective with large rifle night or day from the second story of the building you are tasked to take. Both assaults on the main building, one during the day and 11pm attack resulted in a several casualty's and retreat before getting within 200 meters. It seems they are fighting for their very lives.

You have heard several trucks coming up on you left flank and have not seen anyone in your unit in the last 40 minutes.

They seem to know everywhere you choose to hide. They are closing fast. You take a round low and you go down. Someone is standing over you, A flash and your dead like the rest of your like.

Do you really think that a effective large force is going to just roll up and surround a large family compound. What will happen is the second you get close to our town they will encounter impassable roads and people trying to kill them. We like playing cowboys and idiots.
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  #44  
Old 03-07-2013, 10:18 PM
Chaparral Chaparral is offline
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Originally Posted by FMJBT View Post
For monitoring roads and trails further away from the homestead, IR lasers could be used in place of IR lights. Have the laser pointed straight up in the air, the beam should be visable with NV from quite a distance.
What power output and wavelength did you try this with?

I have a 1200 mW 808nm lab laser that makes one helluva nice beam but I can only see the beam from several dozen feet if it's just pointing up in the air. Maybe if it's humid or foggy I can see it a little better but it's been my experience that lasers have to be hitting reflective objects or some sort wavelength specific photodiode to really generate a usable signal.

Also, properly collimated lasers even in the 1W range ain't gonna be cheap, especially if you need 20 of the darn things. Maybe some focusable 850 nm units from Aixiz that put out say, 5 to 15 mW might work. At a distance of 200 yards of so, the beam can be focused to be quite large and should be safe for even non-autogated intensifier tubes as well as human and animal eyes.
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  #45  
Old 03-07-2013, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
And I will be protecting my home and family. So will my neighbors. Nothing is more important to us than our family's.

Freezing in the winter and deadly hot and summer. Your gallon camel back and will last you a couple of days at best and the 300 rounds of ammo you started with is dwindling and you buddy you started with bled out about a hour ago.

It seems like you are being shot at from several angles now and someone is very effective with large rifle night or day from the second story of the building you are tasked to take. Both assaults on the main building, one during the day and 11pm attack resulted in a several casualty's and retreat before getting within 200 meters. It seems they are fighting for their very lives.

You have heard several trucks coming up on you left flank and have not seen anyone in your unit in the last 40 minutes.

They seem to know everywhere you choose to hide. They are closing fast. You take a round low and you go down. Someone is standing over you, A flash and your dead like the rest of your like.

Do you really think that a effective large force is going to just roll up and surround a large family compound. What will happen is the second you get close to our town they will encounter impassable roads and people trying to kill them. We like playing cowboys and idiots.
Having family and close friends sharing the same ideology makes you much stronger, not only the higher #'s / larger area to live off,but you are all on the same page mentally.
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  #46  
Old 03-08-2013, 9:50 AM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is offline
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Originally Posted by bigguns85 View Post
In a SHTF scenerio wounds will become fatal esecially if done right. The raiders will not have any airlifts to get them medical treatment and if they did they are already too big a force for you to handle. Boobietraps are used as a buffer zone far from your property you shouldnt use it if you have a small property If you want concealment.
Why would you want to place booby traps "far from your property"?? Why risk injury to someone that might have been just peaceably passing through the area??

Plus why possibly peak the interest of that force that was "too big for you to handle" and get them to start looking around for why someone bothered to set a booby trap at all?

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Thats the military thinking behind the 5.56 nato it often doesn't kill but wounds and then that guy needs medical help and you shoot the guy who trys to help him. As my brother taught me(a marine) shoot them in the pelvis it breaks their bones and they cant walk and when their budy comes to help him shoot that guy too lol.
Wrong, the 5.56 was adopted not an it's ability to wound but on now recognized as incorrect assumptions that in the ballistics world 1+3 (small bullet traveling fast) will give the same terminal affect as 2+2 (larger bullet traveling slower). While the math comes out the same the end result is noticeably different with the bigger bullet. Which is why the military has spent so much money trying to crutch the 5.56 into something closer to 7.62 by increasing the round from 55gr to 62 to 69 to 75 to 77 and now to a-not-a-HP-HP. To say nothing of equipping some units with 6.5G and 6.8SPC rounds and reissuing every M14 it can pull out of storage.

Also armies have been shooting to wound for much longer then the 5.56 has been in use.

As a former Marine Gunny myself your brother should have told you that "Marine" is ALWAYS capitalized.

Quote:
Remeber a SHTF scenerio is a war of attrition not an all out war.
NO a SHTF situation is a SURVIVAL situation and NOT a war at all, despite what the movies (and inflated egos) would have people believe.
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  #47  
Old 03-08-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Chaparral View Post
What power output and wavelength did you try this with?

I have a 1200 mW 808nm lab laser that makes one helluva nice beam but I can only see the beam from several dozen feet if it's just pointing up in the air. Maybe if it's humid or foggy I can see it a little better but it's been my experience that lasers have to be hitting reflective objects or some sort wavelength specific photodiode to really generate a usable signal.

Also, properly collimated lasers even in the 1W range ain't gonna be cheap, especially if you need 20 of the darn things. Maybe some focusable 850 nm units from Aixiz that put out say, 5 to 15 mW might work. At a distance of 200 yards of so, the beam can be focused to be quite large and should be safe for even non-autogated intensifier tubes as well as human and animal eyes.

Interesting. To be honest, the only places I have tried this out have been either coastal areas with significant humidty/marine layer, or desert areas with lots of airborne dust, or a combination of both. I could see how in an area with nice clean air, the IR laser idea might not work very well. One more reason to go with a radio signal device motion detector I guess.
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  #48  
Old 03-08-2013, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
And I will be protecting my home and family. So will my neighbors. Nothing is more important to us than our family's...
That kind of thinking is what will drive people to become looters and/or killers - they very things that they claim that they are not. I think that humanity is the most important thing to protect, because without that, what's there to look forward to?

Many of the I-have-it-all-figured-out posts in this thread make it clear that people haven't thought through these situations very well, and some have pointed out the need to not draw attention to one's self. But that doesn't fit the armchair Rambo I'm-going-to-kick-***-just-you-wait. It brings to mind the phrase, "everyone's got a plan until the shooting starts." I wonder how many here giving advice have been in real firefights, without air support or dozens of heavily armed buddies, for weeks on end.
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  #49  
Old 03-08-2013, 10:08 PM
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That kind of thinking is what will drive people to become looters and/or killers - they very things that they claim that they are not. I think that humanity is the most important thing to protect, because without that, what's there to look forward to?

Many of the I-have-it-all-figured-out posts in this thread make it clear that people haven't thought through these situations very well, and some have pointed out the need to not draw attention to one's self. But that doesn't fit the armchair Rambo I'm-going-to-kick-***-just-you-wait. It brings to mind the phrase, "everyone's got a plan until the shooting starts." I wonder how many here giving advice have been in real firefights, without air support or dozens of heavily armed buddies, for weeks on end.
WTF
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  #50  
Old 03-08-2013, 11:07 PM
bigguns85 bigguns85 is offline
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It simply comes down to two thoughs do you want to be light and mobile or heavy armor and defendable. The light and mobile works fine if your mobile. If you have a fixed location then you want to be able to defend. History alone has taught that when you have movng raiders from disasters concealment works poorly because they are raiding anyhing that looks worth whie. In ww2 when whole towns were driven out and the people forced to fend for themselves they raided every farm withinn miles because they were starving and what they couldnt take with them they broke. The more resistance you give the the more they will leave you alone. Even organnized raiders will be significantly weeker than you because they have had to scrounge while you were prepared and should have thousands of rounds of ammo as well as working knowlage of the area. Look at afghanistan no ocupieing force has been sucessful for over 2000 years including us! If you stand you ground and have a secret way out then you should be fine. Just make sure to have IR and you can spot their snipers also get the counter sniper scaner. Forget what its called but it is able to see the scoupe of a sniper rifle. Their pricey though lol
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  #51  
Old 03-08-2013, 11:15 PM
bigguns85 bigguns85 is offline
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I forgot to mention you should already have enough food and water stored for a year as well as a resuplying food source and water source plan I.E. crops and well. That means a siege is only effective if you die or get sick or they break through.You could always retreat anyways through the secret tunnel. You shouldn't have all your eggs in one basket anyways. The purpose of the thread is how to defend a large property anyways and ideas how to so no need to troll and try to sink others boats because you dont like their logic just give you own sugesstion instead.
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  #52  
Old 03-08-2013, 11:21 PM
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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...sniper-scopes/

Here is the device its bada**
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  #53  
Old 03-08-2013, 11:46 PM
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Let's put is in simple terms...Physical barriers, Detection, Assesment, and last but not least, Response. This should cost you roughly a buttload(read Tens of Millions of Dollars or a company sized element for full time protection)of cash. Without going into details, I have a bit of experience in this realm and the bad guy always had the advantage of suprise and foreknowledge. Best bet is to withdraw, consolidate and defend from a smaller more reinforceable location.
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  #54  
Old 03-09-2013, 12:23 AM
bigguns85 bigguns85 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sgt5811 View Post
Let's put is in simple terms...Physical barriers, Detection, Assesment, and last but not least, Response.
+1 thats what I said lol

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Originally Posted by Sgt5811 View Post
read Tens of Millions of Dollars or a company sized element for full time protection
is that a book or somthing? I got nothing in a google search.

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Originally Posted by Sgt5811 View Post
Best bet is to withdraw, consolidate and defend from a smaller more reinforceable location.
please eleberate as that is the point of the thread is the fall back point predetermaned and preset up to defend? or are you just heading to the hills?
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  #55  
Old 03-09-2013, 1:15 AM
Exocet5 Exocet5 is offline
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You guys make very good points. Being that this is a discussion to flesh out good and better points in fluid conditions, we should hold ourselves to the ideal that

1) Everything changes at the point of contact
2) Nothing goes according to plan

WE may plan to rely on IR lasers, armored lookouts, familiarity of terrain, friends and family coming to aid but it is reality that the aggressor dictates the time and place of attack.

What's that saying? United we stand, divided we fall? It's a safe assumption that raiders are not going to attack at the strongest or most obvious points. Though the bridge may be out or blocked, they will ford a river or find a path through the mountains. Snipe the changing of the guard. Set fire to the forest abutting the community then attack at the flanks. Attack at night during heavy snowfall.

I think Rawles had a great point when he painted raiders in a future SHTF/TEOWAWKI scenario as: 3 individuals, some w/ military training, at least 1 scoped rifle, and operating as a small wolfpack. By the time they make it to you (6 months, 9 months, 12 months), they are desperate, hardened, and lethal.

Biggest emphasis on desperate.

There can only be an organized response to this organized raiding.
I want to have every advantage I can humanly think of -here- before I meet these men in the night.
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  #56  
Old 03-09-2013, 1:39 AM
Exocet5 Exocet5 is offline
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Someone mentioned wanting a critique of the actual location. I think that's an outstanding idea.

Note: The map is pretty much drawn to scale. I.e. the river really is about that much distance from the road/ property/ mountains, etc.

Situation Report
1) The area is medium wooded at elevation of ~2-3k feet.
2) The homestead sits 3klicks down a paved road from the main road. Marked with the red X.
3) There is a clearing of approximately 500m x 250m in the back of the home for a scenic view. Approximately 2klicks east are the mountains.
4) There are multiple neighbors off this road on other little roads (marked as squares).
5) The are seasonal creeks due north and south of the property. Running down from the mountains.
6) Between the property and the mountains, there is a road that ends in the forest. Not sure of it's purpose or use?
7) There is a minor 2-lane highway marked in orange. This is the main access into the area.
8) There is a river due west of the property; this river feeds into a large lake due W and SW. I'm not sure which way the river flows. Or if the lake and/or river freeze during the winter.
9) There is a general aviation airport.
10) Circling the lake are many seasonal resort-type homes.
11) The mountain range is continuous for 30-40 miles running NW/SE with elevation ranging from 4-6.5k feet.
12) This location has 4-seasons!

Initial Thoughts
A) At first glance, my thinking is that folks could hike down that backroad for easy access to the rear of the property.
B) Also, without having been up to the mountains there, those creeks could provide access through the mountains. I would need to check them out.
C) The clearing in the back is great for observation....although it's the SIDES of that clearing I'm worried about. How can I defend or create barriers in wooded/ forested areas? Fockers could creep right up onto of us it seems.


>>>> D) I have been told that if raiders were coming, the expectation is they would be coming from the south (more populated cities in that direction) <<<<<

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  #57  
Old 03-11-2013, 1:03 PM
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One of the better reads is Benson's The Modern Survival Retreat. More info than a CG post.

Know thy enemy.
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  #58  
Old 03-11-2013, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bigguns85 View Post
Torrey Pines Logic out of Sandy Eggo has a similar product called the Mirage. It's a handheld device that scans for the signatures characteristic of multi-coated optics. It was 40 grand back in 2010 when I inquired about buying one.

It would be a serious force multiplier worth the time and effort to acquire.

A skilled hobbyist could fabricate one based on technology available off of ebay. It wouldn't be so small, rugged and light but it would still be functional.

Don't think for a minute it ain't on my "ta-doo list"...course seeing as how I'm married that's about 500,000 years out
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Old 03-11-2013, 4:28 PM
Chaparral Chaparral is offline
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Originally Posted by Exocet5 View Post
Note: The map is pretty much drawn to scale. I.e. the river really is about that much distance from the road/ property/ mountains, etc.
Let's assume a poor disheveled but attractive woman with maybe a little kid or two offered to help with the chores in exchange for room and board. Since others have bellyached about "loosing one's humanity" etc etc, your tribe took her on as a laborer. Now she has intel on the place with the red "x". She slips away one day..and tells her tribe. They send scouts into the area, silently. If I were one of those scouts, I'd move through the forested area and recon the area from the treeline. I might take that road that goes to the back of the property. Were I to attack, I might split my forces between the woods upslope from the "red x" and possibly the road in.

When I used to skulk around places as a kid, I never walked on roads. I went cross country, through swamps, across shallow spots in creeks, through clear cuts, through old growth forest, through thickets of saplings etc etc. If I wanted to check out a property, I'd approach from the rear, never the road in front. I'd say you've a backdoor that might be hard to secure.
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Old 03-11-2013, 6:34 PM
Steve_In_29 Steve_In_29 is offline
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How many people are in your group? With so much area to cover and with multiple, relatively easy access points you aren't going to really be able to do much in the way of keeping people out without a SIZABLE defensive force.

Your best bet it to cache a bunch of supplies at a more defensible location somewhere up in the mountains and retreat to that spot if more then just a couple people decide they want your house.

Trying to make a stand at the red X against a group will most likely end in your death.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:31 PM
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http://bookos.org/g/Ragnar%20Benson
Rangar Benson is a great source of info. You can get a good amount of free pdf if you just google his name with pdf in it. Heres a link.
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  #62  
Old 03-12-2013, 11:13 PM
bigguns85 bigguns85 is offline
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A skilled hobbyist could fabricate one based on technology available off of ebay.
Im totaly interested what do I do? What parts do I need?
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Old 03-13-2013, 9:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
However, since such fixed positions with the stores necessary to weather a siege of some length are the source of the supplies of the besiegers, there's no reason to assume a long siege. Easier to bypass and come back later.

Historically, sieges were raised when
* other requirements caused the besieging forces to move
* a relief force was near enough to threaten to or actually engage the besiegers (probably N/A here)
* sickness weakened the besiegers
* besiegers were unable to forage for enough supplies to stay
* besiegers were unable to cut off the besieged from resupply, and finally gave up
* a traitor opens a gate and the redoubt falls
* sickness in the strong point reduced the defenders beyond the ability to defend
* lack of supplies weakens the defenders beyond the ability to defend, as suggested here
* a message is received by the defenders ordering them to surrender (probably N/A here)
* a military or negotiated resolution is reached at a higher level, causing hostilities to cease. (probably N/A here)

ETA - 1 more, exemplified by Masada - garrison suicides rather than yield.
(And I did omit 'attackers win by assault' - climb the walls, break the gates, undermine the walls/towers, etc - and kill some or all of the defenders. No more siege after that.)

I don't recall reading of any where the besieged managed to sally and break the siege, but that's a possibility. As you point out, tough for a family of 4 to do against a larger force.
Your premise rests on a crucial assumption; that your attackers are interested in your material goods. As Islamic wars often prove, sometimes money / material necessity has nothing to do with it.

I used the example of the South African farmers for this reason. The raiding parties laying siege to the white farmers don't give a crap about farming or storehouses of food. They're attacking because they want to commit racial genocide. An attacker motivated because your religion or family represents a target won't go away because you have defenses or extensive food stores . They could care less.

The case of Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, the Balkans, the LA Riots, and other examples of racially motivated attacks show that an enemy like that wont stop until you-or they-are dead, period.Without a police or government force to stop it, people in a SHTF crisis will group along ethnic lines and perpetrate acts of racial violence with impunity. That's a bigger threat then roving raiders:at least raiders will pragmatically leave you alone if they get access to resources or find you a too difficult target.A squad of armed racist degenerates will hunt you down until someone dies.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:56 AM
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Silver, I have family that has a large farm in South Africa. You could not be more wrong if you tried. They are nothing but common thieves that attack the weak and or the stupid. They also die wholesale. It is far more common to be attacked in a urban area than the country.

Same thing in Bosnia and surrounding countries. Now the people that were in trouble were the poor people that were attacked by their own government because of their religion. Only when we put a end to it with our military did it stop.

All this supposition about bands of marauders is just that. Any rural area will be defended by the people living there and will make fast work of any incursions into these areas. Remember they are raiding us to get our supplies. It is them that has limited resources and are out of their element.

Early on there will be a huge spike in attacks like you are suggesting. As fuel and transportation and replacement of personal becomes a issue you will see things settle down very quickly. The closer to urban areas the worse things will be.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:25 AM
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Silver, I have family that has a large farm in South Africa. You could not be more wrong if you tried. They are nothing but common thieves that attack the weak and or the stupid. They also die wholesale. It is far more common to be attacked in a urban area than the country.

Same thing in Bosnia and surrounding countries. Now the people that were in trouble were the poor people that were attacked by their own government because of their religion. Only when we put a end to it with our military did it stop.

All this supposition about bands of marauders is just that. Any rural area will be defended by the people living there and will make fast work of any incursions into these areas. Remember they are raiding us to get our supplies. It is them that has limited resources and are out of their element.

Early on there will be a huge spike in attacks like you are suggesting. As fuel and transportation and replacement of personal becomes a issue you will see things settle down very quickly. The closer to urban areas the worse things will be.
I stand corrected regarding the farm attacks. That said, I don't think it's wise to assume that the ONLY threat any of us could face are starving raiders.LAs Rioters didn't yank out Reginald Denny to take his truck .Rwanda is another and much larger case of government instability resulting in ethnically motivated attacks.
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Old 03-15-2013, 1:43 AM
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How much land do you control?.....
There are a ton of other things you can do like solar panels, wind powered generator, food storage, team sessions, but I think you are more asking about how to set up an acreage for defense.
1) Approximately 20 acres under direct control. Those 20 acres cover MORE of the land toward the mountains and less land between the homes (recall the map is drawn to scale). When SHTF, assume the entire area marked with homes can be modified/improved.

2) Yes, I'm definitely interested in how to setup the land AND organize the defense.

Now, b/k I do consultative planning and are paid to make guesses, I'm going to make some, what I think, are reasonable assumptions to think about:

> I'm going to go out on a limb and assume each home (8 homes in the immediate area) being able to contribute 1.5 relatively able bodied folks of varying ages with good quality rifles. x 8 homes = 12 shooters with good weapons and a good stock of ammo. That's 12 + the 3 in my group = 15.

> I'm going to assume, since it's a nicer area, that my age distribution is skewed upward in age...ie LESS 20-30 something folks with young families, and MORE 40-50-60-somethings with teenagers.

> I'm going to assume, since this is a 4-season area, there are a pair of FRS-type walkies in 1/4 of the homes. So 2-pairs or 4 total + the 2 in my group = 6 + 3 Kenwood VHF's comms (TK2100's) and + 2 Ham receivers (Yaesu VX-6s)

> !!!! SPECIAL DISCOVERY !!!!!: THERE IS A BOBCAT AVAILABLE on the property with a SKID-STEER attachment and 300 gallons of diesel in drums
This is not the actual Bobcat or land...this is a random stock photo to illustrate the type of equipment




Without trying to be gay, here is the SUMMARY of the situation:
> 15 irregulars, ages 14-60.
Assume 3 @ 14-16yo's,
3 @ 20-30's,
2 @ 40's,
7 @ 50-60-early 70's

> Assume 1/4 are good shots, 1/2 are ok shots, the rest beginners.
> Assume 1 (just one) is a crack shot in OK physical condition (assume late 50's, overweight, but in good health, somewhat active - Mr Deer Hunter)
> Assume there is a retired state trooper among the group
> Assume among the shooters, there will be 1 person with EMT experience.

> There will be 1 experienced ER physician among the non-combatants who has mostly industrial accident / knife wound / and a small amount of gunshot experience.



> Each irregular has a good quality RIFLE; 1/2 with b/u weapons (pistols, etc)
1/2 with optics
Assume ammo is plentiful

Assume there is one mil-spec night vision goggle (PVS-type) with a 3rd gen len present within the group.

Also assume, besides the Bobcat
Multiple generators
Multiple trucks
Wood and Metal workshops, lathes, tools tools tools
Gas welding
A few bales of barbed wire fencing
6 FRS walkies
3 VHF walkies
2 Hand-held 5w ham recievers
Trauma kits and basic first aid
10 canisters of white smoke (m-18 type)
multiple 12gauge red marine flares
rudimentary medical operating theater



With your guys' frank input, especially you Steve_in_29, I realize where this needs to go to realistically survive small raider attacks as a group and small community.

With so much ground to cover, in such a large area, with unfavorable conditions (woodland, road access), there needs to be

1) Consolidation of living situations to more defensible locations,
2) Establishment of some kind of basic comm system
3) Training to baseline folks
4) An ATTEMPT to establish some kind of command and control overlay; ie when raiders sighted, mothers and kids to location 1, non-able bodied shooters to location 2, able-bodied shooters A+B+C to location 3, reserve force D+E to location 4, crackshot+F (Mr Deer Hunter & spotter "F" with the NVG) to location 5, etc. All easier to organize after the first night of 'crazy shooting on the other side of the valley'. I do realize that this will be the hardest part of the entire situation.

W/o trying to be gay and not having been in the service, I am realizing this SOUNDS like multiple small unit leadership....ie not 2nd LT....Captain.
Crap.

Is there some kind of curriculum for small unit leadership? Not necessarily squad level CQB but C&C level. Besides going to WP/NA/AFA/etc....

I am willing to spend to learn.

But beyond this, what can I do in those first few weeks to begin to organize & build defenses/ people/ improve the location?
What is the best way to organize that mix of people?
Who to use to do what? Obviously the retired trooper has a unique skill set. The ER doc as well.
I now have a bobcat, I can dig big trenches & move heavy things.
Woodshop & welder to create spikes.....
Bales of barbed wire.....

Last edited by Exocet5; 04-27-2013 at 7:42 PM..
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Old 03-15-2013, 9:32 AM
KevinB KevinB is offline
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Another thing that hasn't been touched on here is the ability of a band of "marauders" being able to move about freely.

The most powerful military in the world has real issues driving around Afghanistan without running into IED's that have accounted for over 75% of all casualties in the country. I would bet that with the resources and ingenuity of the USA populace that things will get real ugly quick for the bad guys.

Wouldn't take much to disable and kill everyone in a unarmored bunch of trucks.

If a bunch of Taliban can cause all the problems they do now against the most sophisticated and armored military in the world think what will happen when a bunch of marauders come looking for trouble in a Toyota pickup. I wonder how far in the air you could blast a pickup in the air with 50 lbs of ammonia nitrate and diesel fuel. Think Oklahoma City.

Bands of roving thugs are going to be cumbersome to move about, feeding and keeping them in armed is going to be a logistical impossibility. They will stick out like a whore in church and be less welcome.

My point is that your attacking thugs are going to catch hell long before they even get close.

That being said, I can't imagine the carnage in major urban area's.
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Old 03-15-2013, 7:23 PM
Exocet5 Exocet5 is offline
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Bands of roving thugs are going to be cumbersome to move about, feeding and keeping them in armed is going to be a logistical impossibility. They will stick out like a whore in church and be less welcome.

My point is that your attacking thugs are going to catch hell long before they even get close.

That being said, I can't imagine the carnage in major urban area's.
I agree but my concern is magnitude when SHTF.

It's one thing when a few hundred, a thousand, or even a few thousand African bushmen compromise the security concern in a 50 sq mile area (for scale consider that Long Beach CA is only 63 sq miles); it's another thing when tens of thousands start to empty from multiple cities all at once. Even a 2% flight-rate from a tiny place like Indian Wells, CA (pop. 5,000) sends 100 people down the road in vehicles + some weapons. Apply 2% to Fresno (pop, 500,000) you get 10,000 hitting the road in vehicles, some with military and/or police training, certainly a fair # of bangers, and some with high quality weapons. The sheer # of people gives an extended distribution across a wide area.

10,000 people is an army division. It seems rural folk (within a gas tank of a major city...300 miles) may literally run out of bullets based on the sheer # of potential engagements. And then 80% of these fleeing urban folks run out of gas and are on foot & on the move perhaps 150-250 miles from their point of origin.

More disturbing is when I admit a 2% flight rate seems low.

Edit: It seems I have found some useful small unit leadership links:

Small Unit Leadership
http://www.amu.apus.edu/academic/sch...course/MILS120

Command and Leadership for the Small Unit Leader
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/docreposito...2_100_1953.pdf

Big thanks to Bigguns85 for his Bookos.org link. I found some of the books referenced above to view

Here is an online PDF scanner based out of UC Santa Barbara that will scan for embedded exploits/malware in PDF documents
You can have it scan a link or scan an actual file

http://wepawet.cs.ucsb.edu/index.php

Last edited by Exocet5; 03-15-2013 at 7:53 PM..
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Old 03-15-2013, 8:00 PM
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If you have some acreage, just post "No trespassers, you will be shot" at the perimeters. Then dig a grave within 10 feet of the sign.

Live your life.
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Old 03-15-2013, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
Another thing that hasn't been touched on here is the ability of a band of "marauders" being able to move about freely.

The most powerful military in the world has real issues driving around Afghanistan without running into IED's that have accounted for over 75% of all casualties in the country. I would bet that with the resources and ingenuity of the USA populace that things will get real ugly quick for the bad guys.

Wouldn't take much to disable and kill everyone in a unarmored bunch of trucks.

If a bunch of Taliban can cause all the problems they do now against the most sophisticated and armored military in the world think what will happen when a bunch of marauders come looking for trouble in a Toyota pickup. I wonder how far in the air you could blast a pickup in the air with 50 lbs of ammonia nitrate and diesel fuel. Think Oklahoma City.

Bands of roving thugs are going to be cumbersome to move about, feeding and keeping them in armed is going to be a logistical impossibility. They will stick out like a whore in church and be less welcome.

My point is that your attacking thugs are going to catch hell long before they even get close.

That being said, I can't imagine the carnage in major urban area's.
The trouble with this idea is that it assumes the bad guys will use vehicles for their assault.

The US Military uses vehicles because largely, we don't have a choice. You cannot resupply an organized expeditionary force thousands of miles from its home base without using wheeled vehicles to transport food, material, and ammo. Its logistically impossible to transport large amounts of ammo and food without using some kind of truck-and large trucks need roads.

A local SHTF situation doesn't fit that mold, because the bad guys will just walk out of the cities to plunder the rural parts.

With regard to SHTF, I think we need to quantify exactly what "SHTF" means. If we're talking about Mad Max style SHTF, a fixed defense is bad news because sooner or later, you'll run out of material or meet a team of attackers who know their business. If we're talking about soft-SHTF/ government retrenchment like we see in Afghanistan and to a lesser extent in Argentina, government might actually ally with the crooks and robbers. In that event, you might survive the attack of the marauders....only to end up in prison when the surviving scumbags call in favors from City Hall.

Remember, the bad guys have families and friends too. Kill enough of them , and eventually you'll end up on a crime lord's desk as a target to be removed at all costs. Look at what happened to Lance Thomas in LA: after shooting multiple robbers , the gangs in that city made it clear his shop was marked for a hit, which is why he took his business private into "appointment only". He didn't want an innocent customer catching lead on his account, and I don't blame Thomas for that decision.
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The more prohibitions you have, the less virtuous people will be.
The more subsidies you have, the less self reliant people will be.
-Lao-Tzu, Tau Te Ching. 479 BCE

The 1911 may have been in wars for 100 years, but Masetro Bartolomeo Beretta was arming the world 400 years before John Browning was ever a wet dream.

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Old 03-15-2013, 9:03 PM
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That bobcat picture has a road in the background. That means anyone traveling the road can see you as we'll.

Plus, are those fruit trees? If they are, people will see those as an opportunity for food.

With the road you have no concealment. And with the fruit trees you have a target on you. If you lived in the desert I'm sure fewer people would want your cactus.

My 2 cents because you are exposed you may as well look intimidating. Build ramparts with the bobcat. Place some bar wire.

You have people for patrols. I still say some dogs and put warning signs for the dogs.

Do you have snipers to target the road? Put some kind of marker on the road for your snipers to get their ranges. Multiple markers in different colors. Markers can just be a tree or barrel.

You have an excellent hilltop position from the looks of it. And with all that barren looking land that's a field if death to cross. I'd clear some trees though.

Multiple bunkers would be nice. With the bobcat you can built a trench pathway.
Now you have cover to and from.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:00 PM
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Granite - sorry, that Bobcat is not the actual one nor is the land....it's a stock photo I used just for illustration.

This is a small illustration of the land.
Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Last edited by Exocet5; 04-27-2013 at 7:41 PM..
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Old 03-16-2013, 5:29 PM
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Cut and stack the trees. Now you have bunkers, cover to bunkers and opened up firing lines. Some by the house and you've hardened your walls.

All that snow is free water. Although with a bobcat I'd might make a pond.

I'd have my people practice shooting where their bunkers are and markers to adjust sights.

That slight hill in the background has the high ground. Others would have a better idea how to counter or utilize it.
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Old 03-16-2013, 6:56 PM
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I was talking to a guy about villages in Africa. His unit would come into them and the story was always the same. For weeks or even months someone was murdering one or two of the males. Either attacking them physically when alone or sniping them from afar. Its called "dwindling" for lack of a better translation and it fits the crime sorta speak.

Two or three guys can "dwindle" a whole village down to women and children in a few weeks. Hit and run,... hit and run, rinse and repeat for weeks until the village had no one left to put up a resistance to the guys just walking up and taking what they want. They could also toss a ransom note into the village or whatever... pay up or lose more fathers....

You also got to remember evil isnt always in your face and obvious...it can also be concealed. The guy walking right up to the front door unarmed is just as much of a risk as the guy walking around at night with a gun. What you gonna do...murder every person who walks onto your land and asks for assistance?

Fence lines are only useful when there is a polite society and only keeps the honest person out. Do not waste too much effort on them. Repair and maintain what is needed, but don't go all out...people protect what is valuable... so a fence is also a clue to the bad guys.

Night vision is a MUST. Early warning is a must. Having a "first contact" policy in place that everyone knows is a must. Appear weak and vulnerable to test your guest. Their true nature will come out.

"Show No Mercy" to those who would offer you none.
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Old 03-16-2013, 7:39 PM
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Excellent ideas from many people.

May I offer a different strategy? Focus on training your people to be marksmen level shooters at least and plan to bug out if faced with overwhelming force.

You temporarily give up your position and come back at them at your convenience.

Static defense is too expensive.

Spread out your spider-holes and BOB all over the place and become a Grim Reaper at night. Hit hard and disappear. Over and over.

The psychological effect is devastating.



Use paintball to train.

George
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Old 03-16-2013, 8:12 PM
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Read "lights out" might be an interesting read for you.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakersfield_Grizzly View Post
I am liking this thread, I still like the spokes and wheel design

But I have seen people with a 20 acre setup like yours, build a 15' mound about 50' in from the property line, then build a fence around the property line. They brought the driveway in along the back of mound and made it slightly maze like so that there were plenty of choke points. They planted trees along the top of the mound and on the outside, I am assuming this blocks the view but allows defenders room to manuever.
That's a HUGE amount of dirt to move which is not something that happens quickly and not at all with just that Bobcat. That berm will also require constant maintenance to keep it from washing away with the rains. I have seen one good storm carve out entire new access points in a dirt berm. Which is part of why the military adopted the wire mesh reinforced cardboard box format.

Unless you have enough people to CONTINUOUSLY man and overwatch that entire berm and it's approaches then you have simply provided any attackers with cover and concealment for them to get danger close. That's why the military erects guard positions with machine guns to be able to rake the approaches right up to the wall between each post. What they can't cover they defend with pre-planed, on-call fire missions which I don't see happening here.

Trees or other plants will also allow what might otherwise be a too-steep-to climb berm to be negotiated by grabbing them for support. Shrubbery has another impact on an effective defense in that it will require even more defenders to man the berm due to the shorter lines-of-sight/fields-of-fire it creates. To say nothing of the myriad of sniping locations they now can utilize amongst the trees/bushes,

Once the attackers are on top of that berm they also now control the high ground which makes any further attempt at defense within it moot. The term fish-in-a-barrel comes to mind.


Bottom line, a berm/wall might make people feel good about their safety but it is a death trap if there aren't enough defenders inside it.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by HPBrowningMK3 View Post
Excellent ideas from many people.

May I offer a different strategy? Focus on training your people to be marksmen level shooters at least and plan to bug out if faced with overwhelming force.
VERY valid recommendations.

Quote:
You temporarily give up your position and come back at them at your convenience.

Static defense is too expensive.

Spread out your spider-holes and BOB all over the place and become a Grim Reaper at night. Hit hard and disappear. Over and over.

The psychological effect is devastating.



Use paintball to train.

George
Is it really worth the effort to retake an indefensible position??

Despite the Call of Duty fantasies, even the BEST trained units still take casualties in those types of hit-and-run attacks, so a rag tag group can only fare worse.

How long before it's reduced to ineffectiveness and the women/children are left to fend for themselves.

A war of attrition really doesn't work if you have no way to readily replace your losses.
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Old 03-17-2013, 5:17 PM
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+

+

=
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Blue Skies & Tailwinds,
Captain Bob

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Old 03-17-2013, 5:20 PM
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He has the trees to build that defense. Stacked trees can hold the dirt berms in place. Bobcat to help haul and so on.

If its a hit and run attack, he would need night vision to hunt back.
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