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Calgunners in Service This forum is a place for our active duty and deployed members to share, request and have a bit of home where ever they are.

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  #1  
Old 02-22-2013, 10:25 AM
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Default Veteran Needs Forgiveness

I'm not a member of the military, but I had to share this here...

Timothy Kudo, a veteran of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, thinks of himself as a killer. "I can't forgive myself... and the people who can forgive me are dead."

Full story here.

I found Kudo on Facebook and sent him a message of support. If you'd like to reach out as well, here's his page.

I spent the $1 to make sure it goes to his Inbox.
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Last edited by MacDaddy; 02-22-2013 at 2:12 PM..
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  #2  
Old 02-22-2013, 10:46 AM
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"Kudo never personally shot anyone. But he feels responsible for the deaths of the teens on the motorcycle."

Not sure what to make of that, never been in the military, but seems this guy is a bit dramatic. Maybe someone with combat experience can chime in.
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Old 02-22-2013, 7:34 PM
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look, everyone handles there experiences differently, within my squad of 12 Marines who experienced a pretty good amount of combat in afghanistan, including personal kills, and Marines being wounded, every single one of my Marines has reacted differently. I have one Marine who was seemingly unphased, while another is about to be medically seperated for PTSD related issues. One person may say over dramatic, another may say, i feel your pain

Personally I feel if you didnt pull the trigger, or call in the fire support, or give the order to fire, you werent responsible. But I am one person and like I said earlier, EVERYONE will react to their own experiences differently

just my .02
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Old 02-22-2013, 9:12 PM
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Thanks for weighing in Ducky. And thanks for your service.

The bottom line for me is that this guy went public with his pain, and if sending a little message via Facebook will do anything to relieve even the smallest fraction of that pain, it's the least I can do. I think we Americans need to spend more time supporting each other and less time in-fighting. Yeah, wishful thinking, I know.

To be clear, my comment is not directed at you, Ducky. Somehow, I sense you would agree.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superduper2013 View Post
"Kudo never personally shot anyone. But he feels responsible for the deaths of the teens on the motorcycle."

Not sure what to make of that, never been in the military, but seems this guy is a bit dramatic. Maybe someone with combat experience can chime in.
He may not actually shot anybody but something can be said about his leadership position where he may had to give orders to shoot another. Or even the fact that he witnessed the killing and he felt like he could have prevented the death of those individuals can have an effect on him.
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Old 02-23-2013, 7:18 AM
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I built bombs and missiles while in Iraq and never really put any thought into where they were dropped. Ill go with Ducky I don't feel responsible. I built them the pilots dropped them and bombs went off.
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Old 02-23-2013, 8:05 AM
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I did a little time on the ground in Viet Nam and can tell you the Marine summed it up. Each person has to deal with their pain in their own way. The answer in 68 was not PTSD it was no jobs for the Baby killers and half the homeless ended up being people that did time in country.

I don't do facebook so I will tell you here Colonel Grossman wrote a book called on killing. Grossman is a psychologist and a member of special forces. There is a lot in that book that can help put away in a box the crap you carry around years after your time.

There are a lot of things done in war that would be frowned on in polite society and flying people home is a disservice. Many of us went from patrol on Friday and home on Monday. There should be a 60 day slow boat ride home so everybody can come back to society slowly and hopefully with all their faculties.

I would like to say thank you for careing for this guy it is important that the Nation not turn their back on those that stepped forward to serve. My hat is off to you sir.
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Old 02-23-2013, 8:30 AM
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It does change you, you look at things differently, but not nessesarily in a bad way. For me, things that seem dramatic for civilians seems trivial to me. But, other than talk fondly of the military or my buddies, I never talk about what I did, that would cause them to stereotype me, or look at me differently, they don't need to know.
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:25 AM
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I can't really add anything that Ducky or Mano didn't. Everyone will react differently and those with problems will react and recover in different ways. There's a lot of counseling services out there for us, but some people can only get over their issues by coming to terms with it themselves. I had to justify my actions every day to myself- it was a lot of time spent looking in a mirror. I got lucky. I never did anything that I can't justify, nothing that I can't live with. Some people aren't so lucky, and helping them isn't a simple problem.

With just the information provided in the article, it sounds like a reasonable shoot- the majority of people in the situation probably would have made the decision. But for the person who did make the decision, hindsight is 20/20, and it can be hard to get over. You don't have to pull the trigger yourself to be or feel responsible for someones death. He definitely has my sympathies.
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolito View Post
I did a little time on the ground in Viet Nam and can tell you the Marine summed it up. Each person has to deal with their pain in their own way. The answer in 68 was not PTSD it was no jobs for the Baby killers and half the homeless ended up being people that did time in country.

I don't do facebook so I will tell you here Colonel Grossman wrote a book called on killing. Grossman is a psychologist and a member of special forces. There is a lot in that book that can help put away in a box the crap you carry around years after your time.

There are a lot of things done in war that would be frowned on in polite society and flying people home is a disservice. Many of us went from patrol on Friday and home on Monday. There should be a 60 day slow boat ride home so everybody can come back to society slowly and hopefully with all their faculties.

I would like to say thank you for careing for this guy it is important that the Nation not turn their back on those that stepped forward to serve. My hat is off to you sir.
Yep. No jobs for baby killers, and don't even mention you served. I had one professor at Ohio State University tell me that he would prefer it if I would drop his class, and that he felt I did not deserve the "free ride" of the G.I. Bill.
Lucky for both of us I was not carrying my Ka-Bar that day.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:42 AM
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Yep. No jobs for baby killers, and don't even mention you served. I had one professor at Ohio State University tell me that he would prefer it if I would drop his class, and that he felt I did not deserve the "free ride" of the G.I. Bill.
Lucky for both of us I was not carrying my Ka-Bar that day.
Another nugget of wisdom from our education professionals.
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  #12  
Old 02-23-2013, 11:07 AM
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Ill second what Loco said about being able to justify your actions. On killing and on combat are great books (a little dry and hard to get through at times) and helped me and my friends understand what we went through and why we were reacting the ways we did.
Being able to justify your decisions and actions is paramount, really glad you brought that up Loco!
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  #13  
Old 02-23-2013, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ducky_0811 View Post
Ill second what Loco said about being able to justify your actions. On killing and on combat are great books (a little dry and hard to get through at times) and helped me and my friends understand what we went through and why we were reacting the ways we did.
Being able to justify your decisions and actions is paramount, really glad you brought that up Loco!
No problem. It takes a lot of work though. It is a hard conscious effort to examine your own actions, compare them to your preconceived notions of who you are and your own morality, and come to some sort of conclusion. The fight club line about how you can never really know yourself until you've been in a fight is truer than most people could possibly imagine. In combat, you become your natural self in a way that's almost impossible to describe- and I would imagine any other combat vets here would agree. You can't go through that without it changing your view of yourself in some way. Some just have an easier time with it than others, and I think a lot of the comes from an individuals views of themselves.

But, anyway, I tend to wax philosophical about this ****- sorry


And I keep meaning to read "On Killing", I just never seem to get around to it...
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"... You feel the anger thinking of the loved ones you will never see again, and losing your life infuriates your soul. You rage to get to your feet and grab for a weapon, any weapon. Regardless of your race, culture, or religion, you want to die standing, fighting like a warrior, an American, so others won't have to. For those looking for a definition, this is the price of freedom.

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SFC Ryan Savard KIA 13 OCT 2012
"Sine Pari"
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  #14  
Old 02-23-2013, 5:12 PM
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What exactly does the military do? [with all do respect] Joining the military is more than a job training ,welfare program,you may be asked to go kill someone, that is exactly what the military does.
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Last edited by Sunday; 02-23-2013 at 5:15 PM..
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  #15  
Old 02-23-2013, 5:21 PM
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What exactly does the military do? [with all do respect] Joining the military is more than a job training ,welfare program,you may be asked to go kill someone, that is exactly what the military does.
There's a big difference between the hypothetical "I may have to kill someone" and actually coming to terms with having done it.
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"... You feel the anger thinking of the loved ones you will never see again, and losing your life infuriates your soul. You rage to get to your feet and grab for a weapon, any weapon. Regardless of your race, culture, or religion, you want to die standing, fighting like a warrior, an American, so others won't have to. For those looking for a definition, this is the price of freedom.

------
SGT Thomas Macpherson KIA 12 OCT 2012
SFC Ryan Savard KIA 13 OCT 2012
"Sine Pari"
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  #16  
Old 02-23-2013, 6:18 PM
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What exactly does the military do? [with all do respect] Joining the military is more than a job training ,welfare program,you may be asked to go kill someone, that is exactly what the military does.
first off, you're generalizing, only about 25% of the military has combat jobs, the rest are supporting roles. second off, a job training, welfare program? im not sure what you mean by that. the originator of this thread asked for supportive comments or combat vets to share their oppinions.

so unless you have a supportive comment, or you are a combat veteran with something to contribute to this conversation, "with all due respect", go find a nail sticking out of a wall and head butt it.
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Old 02-23-2013, 9:03 PM
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Even though I'm sure the person going through this appreciates the support from fellow Americans, survivor guilt and other symptoms experienced by people with PTSD symptoms really require more specific support from VA mental health physicians, counselors and other combat vets during group therapy.

Combat PTSD is something civilian physicians are ages behind on and likely do not understand the signs or latest vet relevant treatment methods. Service related PTSD really is another animal. Civilian clinics don't even know how to process people with such symptoms mostly due to lack of familiarity to that level of psychological trauma. So as nice as it is for this guy to get a pat on the back it isn't fixing the deep rooted causes for him feeling such anguish.

He will need professional help.

Vet Centers (not VA clinics, vet centers), VA hospitals and VA clinics have personnel assigned to help people specifically dealing with problems that this veteran is experiencing.

VA hospitals/clinics and Vet Centers even have supports groups where veterans groups get together and talk about their problems. Locally here in Humboldt County, there are mental health services available and the VA Clinic. Also counselors and veteran group sessions at the Vet Center. Such groups are generational such as Vietnam support group and OIF/OEF vet group that meet weekly.

Those are the type of skilled resources a PTSD sufferer needs to utilize. A lot of outside providers/physicians just don't know what the hell they are getting themselves into and PTSD vets don't always know who/where to get PTSD skilled treatment or continue to go undiagnosed/untreated.

It's a pretty serious thing actually that you don't want to mess around with and procrastinate in reaching the correct services for. That's what concerns me also about gun grabbers going after PTSD vets, is that vets will deliberately forgo diagnosis/treatment in order to keep their 2nd amendment rights.

Not everyone who has PTSD is violent or commits murder because of mismanagement of their symptoms. There are still a number of ways it can hurt your life, your education, your relationships, literally everything. Those close to a PTSD sufferer endure a number of the signs of PTSD. The PTSD victim is usually not the only one who suffers and also for that reason a PTSD victim should seek professional help for the benefit of their family and friends also. True professional help is a must. We can deny it all we want or blame the symptoms on everything but PTSD but it almost always comes right back to that and the experiences that brought it on.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:38 PM
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As stated earlier by others, everyone handles stress differently. I had to shoot and kill a bad guy during my first tour, I dont feel bad about it but some people take it differently. I had great success at the PTSD treatment centers in VA hospitals, group therapy also helps too with some other combat related problems I was having. If you need help you should be able to seek it without fear of stereotyping and reprisals.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:03 PM
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I've had the occasional nightmare ever since GW-I back in 91. The current unpleasantness just added to my repertoire.

As mentioned everyone deals with things differently. We had mechanics who never left the FOB have problems just from the rocket and mortar attacks, and in 91 we had one admin guy lose it when he saw the "Highway of Death" in person.

There are guys who are just looking for sympathy, or a VA disability rating, but that's not necessarily the case here.
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Old 02-24-2013, 6:46 AM
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+1 for encouraging him into the VA or similar program. We lose more good men (and women?) to suicide then combat deaths nowadays. My reserve unit medical officer just retired from the VA and can speak first hand to some of the programs available. I'll check FB later to see if that's been suggested repeatedly to him.

Disclaimer, I never stepped foot in country, or even got to float with Ducky and my bros - though I did get two visits to scenic Yuma. Shudder... But my brother and cousin did time for GW and IF and OEF, including trigger time. From speaking with them, and guys in my unit, i would concur that different people handle it differently.

SF!
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Old 02-24-2013, 7:02 AM
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I never pulled a trigger nor do I rate a combat action ribbon. Needless to say, my time overseas has permanently altered my perspective of life. I'll never look at many things the same.

Ultimately, I firmly believe the working hypothesis / anecdote that each individual handles the effects of deployment and/or combat differently.

God bless my brothers who are battling the personal demons of PTSD.
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Old 02-24-2013, 7:17 AM
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honestly i wish i had gone over there. i did 5 years but i didnt get to go to iraq or afghan. i got to see some of the effects on some of my buddies though, even my grampa delt with all the chinese and north koreans he killed in korea. even the hardest dude can be affected by it. its about time the military started finding better ways to help vets with this issue
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