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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:25 PM
Markinsac Markinsac is offline
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Default 2013 CA SB-683 Block - Amended - cert to be required to buy any kind of firearms

Non-substantive language change - tracking for language changes.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...arch_keywords=

Quote:
SB 683, as introduced, Block. Firearms: used firearms.


Existing law, subject to exceptions, prohibits a person from selling, leasing, or transferring firearms unless the person has been issued a firearms dealer license, as specified. Existing law provides an exception to that requirement for the sale, lease, or transfer of used firearms that are not handguns at gun shows or other events, as specified, if the person has a valid federal firearms license, a current certificate of eligibility, and certain other criteria are met.

This bill would make technical, nonsubstantive changes to these provisions.
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Old 04-02-2013, 9:34 AM
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Default SB-683 Amended - certification to be required to buy any kind of firearms

SB-683 Firearms Safety Certificate Amended
In summary, it looks like a firearms safety certificate is needed to purchase any kind firearms.

Quote:
SB 683, as amended, Block. Firearms: used firearms. firearm safety certificate.
Existing law prohibits a person from purchasing or receiving any handgun without a valid handgun safety certificate, and prohibits any person from selling, delivering, loaning, or transferring any handgun to any person who does not have a valid handgun safety certificate, with exceptions, as specified. Under existing law, a violation of these provisions is a misdemeanor.
This bill would instead prohibit a person from purchasing or receiving any firearm without a valid firearm safety certificate, and would prohibit any person from selling, delivering, loaning, or transferring any firearm to any person who does not have a valid firearm safety certificate. The bill would make conforming changes. The bill would also make technical, nonsubstantive changes. By expanding the scope of a crime, this bill would impose a state-mandated local program.
Quote:
SECTION 1. Section 16670 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
Quote:
16670. As used in this part, “handgun “firearm safety certificate” means a certificate issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to Sections 31610 to 31700, inclusive, or pursuant to former Article 8 (commencing with Section 12800) of Chapter 6 of Title 2 of Part 4, as that article was operative at any time from January 1, 2003, until it was repealed by the Deadly Weapons Recodification Act of 2010.

Quote:
SEC. 2. Section 26840 of the Penal Code is amended to read:

26840. No A dealer may shall not deliver a handgun firearm unless the person receiving the handgun firearm presents to the dealer a valid handgun firearm safety certificate. The firearms dealer shall retain a photocopy of the handgun firearm safety certificate as proof of compliance with this requirement.
Quote:
(e) No handgun A firearm shall not be delivered unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the handgun firearm presents a handgun firearm safety certificate to the dealer.

Quote:
SEC. 4. Section 27875 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
Quote:
(d) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a handgun firearm safety certificate, if the firearm is a handgun.

Quote:
27880. Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm between persons who are personally known to each other, if all of the following requirements are satisfied:
Quote:
(d) If the firearm is a handgun, the The individual being loaned the handgun firearm shall have a valid handgun firearm safety certificate.

Quote:
SEC. 7. Section 27925 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
Quote:
27925. (a) Section 27545 does not apply to a person who takes possession of a firearm by operation of law in a representative capacity who subsequently transfers ownership of the firearm to himself or herself in an individual capacity.
Quote:
(b) In the case of a handgun, the The individual shall obtain a handgun firearm safety certificate prior to transferring ownership to himself or herself, or taking possession of a handgun firearm in an individual capacity.
Please read Full link here:

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...arch_keywords=

Last edited by Blitz; 04-02-2013 at 10:00 AM.. Reason: quotations
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  #3  
Old 04-02-2013, 9:35 AM
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Does this make my handgun card I JUST got useless?
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Old 04-02-2013, 9:36 AM
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So what this this mean we can't convert signal shot to Simi-Auto anymore? and can't buy "Unsafe" handguns anymore?
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Old 04-02-2013, 9:43 AM
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This looks like a new "certificate" is trying to be introduced a firearms, aka handgun and long gun certificate.
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Old 04-02-2013, 9:50 AM
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looks to me like it turns the handgun safety certificate into a firearms safety certificate, and requires that all firearms sold or transferred are to a person with a firearms safety certificate.

not sure what the implications on handgun certificate would be, but one would expect it is the same certificate just expanded to be for all firearms. I know, silly to think anything they do would make sense
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Old 04-02-2013, 9:56 AM
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So...the bill changes the name of the certificate, are they going to re-vamp the testing and handbook materials as well? What happens to everyone who currently has a HSC? Invalid once this law takes effect?

On a side note, it's really annoying that HSC cards are frequently not available at gun stores, even for people who are customers of the store. If we start saying you need one to buy long guns too, are they somehow going to keep a much better stock of these cards??? My guess is no.

Man it's so easy to be a legislator. Just a flick of your wrist to jot down some half-baked idea, and let the "little people" bureaucrats figure out how to shoehorn an implementation that "works".
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Old 04-02-2013, 9:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Rumline View Post
So...the bill changes the name of the certificate, are they going to re-vamp the testing and handbook materials as well? What happens to everyone who currently has a HSC? Invalid once this law takes effect?
knowing that the whole point is to make owning/buying more annoying and expensive, it will likely be the same test and materials, different fee and card

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumline View Post
On a side note, it's really annoying that HSC cards are frequently not available at gun stores, even for people who are customers of the store. If we start saying you need one to buy long guns too, are they somehow going to keep a much better stock of these cards??? My guess is no.
my understanding was that this was caused by the state being way behind on fulfilling the cards needed by stores, not a case of the stores just not carrying them in which case it probably wont be any different, since again, the whole point is to make owning/buying more annoying and expensive
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  #9  
Old 04-02-2013, 10:01 AM
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my bet- existing hsc will be grandfathered but only include purchasing a handgun. will need to get the "whole firearms" certificate to buy a long gun.
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  #10  
Old 04-02-2013, 10:08 AM
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Another poll tax, eh?
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  #11  
Old 04-02-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mag360 View Post
my bet- existing hsc will be grandfathered but only include purchasing a handgun. will need to get the "whole firearms" certificate to buy a long gun.
That's what it looks like. Another hurdle to the law abiding citizen while felons run around with straw purchases.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
That's what it looks like. Another hurdle to the law abiding citizen while felons run around with straw purchases.
How would a felon get around this by using straw purchases? The straw purchaser would need the "certificate" also.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Spylon View Post
How would a felon get around this by using straw purchases? The straw purchaser would need the "certificate" also.
seriously? think about this for 1/3 of a second
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  #14  
Old 04-02-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoooper View Post
seriously? think about this for 1/3 of a second
It takes a whole 1/3 of a second? I saw the gaping hole right away.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:33 AM
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The Brady plan to make gun ownership cumbersome and expensive is well underway. No one here should be surprised this coming out.
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  #16  
Old 04-02-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoooper View Post
seriously? think about this for 1/3 of a second
Yes seriously. I don't understand the fascination on this board with criminals. They don't follow the law!!! So what? Just because they don't follow the law we shouldn't create laws?

Laws are meant for people that are not criminals!!!

In my opinion the issue is that the certificate costs money to take. We should try to amend it to be free, using DROS funds.

Last edited by Spylon; 04-02-2013 at 10:39 AM.. Reason: Realized it was 5 years.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Spylon View Post
How would a felon get around this by using straw purchases? The straw purchaser would need the "certificate" also.
What? Seriously?

Does the certificate make an illegally transferred firearm in operable in a felon's hand?
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by aklover_91 View Post
What? Seriously?

Does the certificate make an illegally transferred firearm in operable in a felon's hand?
Still not understanding your reply or the original one. Why do felons matter?
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:43 AM
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The point behind the certificate is putting a level of control in place and giving that control to a select few.

Being able to turn off the entire program at any given time effectively stopping all transfers and purchases for whatever reason is quite an instrument and potentially even undiscovered by the current authors. Furthermore this certificate may be later amended as required to purchase ammo with the same restrictions and tracking.

Think of this program as an electronic stamp for each person and each weapon, a state DOJ dream and a conduit to confiscation later.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Spylon View Post
Still not understanding your reply or the original one. Why do felons matter?
How hard is it for a straw purchaser to buy a handgun RIGHT NOW? It will be exactly 0% harder. There is no background check for an HSC. You just pay $25 and pass a test and the gun store hands it to you.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:50 AM
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Deleted Don't want to give people ideas.

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Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
How hard is it for a straw purchaser to buy a handgun RIGHT NOW? It will be exactly 0% harder. There is no background check for an HSC. You just pay $25 and pass a test and the gun store hands it to you.
Yeah but the bill is about adding long guns to the cert thus making long gun straw purchases a wee bit harder/more expensive.

Last edited by Spylon; 04-02-2013 at 10:55 AM..
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Spylon View Post
Yes seriously. I don't understand the fascination on this board with criminals. They don't follow the law!!! So what? Just because they don't follow the law we shouldn't create laws?

Laws are meant for people that are not criminals!!!

In my opinion the issue is that the certificate costs money to take. We should try to amend it to be free, using DROS funds.
the point is that this is another 0 benefit hurdle for law abiding citizens. Laws deter some would be criminals from committing crimes by creating large punishments for them. This is not one of those laws, this only deters would be law abiding citizens from buying a gun and gives would be criminals more reason to avoid a legal sale. The whole point of this law is to frustrate and profit from law abiding citizens, there is 0 intention on preventing crime and if you believe it would help prevent any crime I would love to see that reasoning
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Spylon View Post
Good points, with registration on all guns coming in 2014 isn't the cert a mute point? They will already know who owns what "new" guns.
No, it's not a moot point. It's unneccessary.

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Originally Posted by Spylon View Post
Yeah but the bill is about adding long guns to the cert thus making long gun straw purchases a wee bit harder.
No, it won't. A straw purchse by definition is the purchase of a firearmn with intent to transfer that to a another person. The new "firearms safety certification" is already used by straw purchasers in the form of an HSC.

But, please, elaborate on how this will somehow prevent a felon with a willing participant who would already voluntarily get an HSC from gaining access to a firearm. We're all dying to hear this.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Spylon View Post
Laws are meant for people that are not criminals!!!
So... why do we need them if we're not criminals? I'm sorry but that has to be one of the most vapid statements I have ever heard anywhere on the internet.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:59 AM
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...and when purchasing a firearm becomes too burdensome and expensive, chances are there will be more "felons" created just to protect what is theirs...

At some point, an individual will consider the consequences of right, wrong, ridicules laws and family protection. Just an opinion.

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Old 04-02-2013, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jwkincal View Post
So... why do we need them if we're not criminals? I'm sorry but that has to be one of the most vapid statements I have ever heard anywhere on the internet.
its really not true anyway. Laws are meant to deter people from committing certain acts and their application sorts people into the category of criminal or law abiding. The difference between a reasonable law and a bad law is usually IMO evaluated by whether it puts most of the responsibility on otherwise law abiding people, or those likely to commit a crime
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Old 04-02-2013, 12:17 PM
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Default Introducing friends to shooting is critical

The critical thing is whether we can still take our friends shooting without them having to study and take a test before they can ever hold a gun. Such loans could be limited to when the owner is present, but it must at least be legal when the owner is present. If we can't easily introduce people to shooting then the numbers of gun owners will dwindle much more rapidly until there are not enough gun owners to vote to protect our gun rights. If California makes it illegal to introduce friends to shooting then we will have to pursue a federal law to preempt the state laws and allow it. Such a federal law could be enacted on the grounds that it encouraged militia familiarity. It could be attached to a bill that Obama must sign. This should be an ABSOLUTE TOP priority.
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Old 04-02-2013, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoooper View Post
the point is that this is another 0 benefit hurdle for law abiding citizens. Laws deter some would be criminals from committing crimes by creating large punishments for them. This is not one of those laws, this only deters would be law abiding citizens from buying a gun and gives would be criminals more reason to avoid a legal sale. The whole point of this law is to frustrate and profit from law abiding citizens, there is 0 intention on preventing crime and if you believe it would help prevent any crime I would love to see that reasoning
Quote:
Originally Posted by njineermike View Post
But, please, elaborate on how this will somehow prevent a felon with a willing participant who would already voluntarily get an HSC from gaining access to a firearm. We're all dying to hear this.
Oh I completely agree that this will not deter crime. This seems like an educational requirement. Would it be a bad thing if all gun owners had to demonstrate basic gun safety?

Taking that further why don't we come up with a law that is better?
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Old 04-02-2013, 2:45 PM
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kaliphornia state legislature is unbelievable...where do these people come from???
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Old 04-02-2013, 3:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Spylon View Post
Oh I completely agree that this will not deter crime. This seems like an educational requirement. Would it be a bad thing if all gun owners had to demonstrate basic gun safety?

Taking that further why don't we come up with a law that is better?
Why do we need a law creating any barrier to be able to exercise a civil right in the first place? Why no call to take a speech safety course to ensure we understand the repercussions of yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater? Do we need to pass a test and get a certificate indicating we've passed a voter safety course? (That one might actually be a good idea....) Will I need a laminated card in my wallet indicating I've read the book and demonstrated the safe ability to have a lawyer present?
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Old 04-02-2013, 3:25 PM
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Another poll tax, eh?
I was thinking literacy test also. Both unconstitutional.
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Old 04-02-2013, 3:31 PM
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So in other words, this creates an Illinois style Firearms Owners ID card for California.
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Old 04-02-2013, 3:59 PM
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Would it be a bad thing if all gun owners had to demonstrate basic gun safety?
No more than it would be to require voters to demonstrate a minimum level of political knowledge before voting.
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Old 04-02-2013, 4:11 PM
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Laws are meant for people that are not criminals!!!
Nah, they're meant to make more criminals.
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Old 04-02-2013, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Spylon View Post
Laws are meant for people that are not criminals!!!
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Originally Posted by Corsair415 View Post
Nah, they're meant to make more criminals.
You're both right...they're meant for people who are not yet criminals, in order to turn them into criminals.
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Old 04-02-2013, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rumline View Post
So...the bill changes the name of the certificate, are they going to re-vamp the testing and handbook materials as well? What happens to everyone who currently has a HSC? Invalid once this law takes effect?

On a side note, it's really annoying that HSC cards are frequently not available at gun stores, even for people who are customers of the store. If we start saying you need one to buy long guns too, are they somehow going to keep a much better stock of these cards??? My guess is no.

Man it's so easy to be a legislator. Just a flick of your wrist to jot down some half-baked idea, and let the "little people" bureaucrats figure out how to shoehorn an implementation that "works".
The dealers have to buy the HSC cards from DOJ......They pay $15.00 each, thats why the dealers often run out, as they don't keep hundreds of cards on hand at any one time.
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Old 04-02-2013, 9:26 PM
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You're both right...they're meant for people who are not yet criminals, in order to turn them into criminals.
This!! Look at SB 755 for a prime example of it.
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Old 04-03-2013, 8:15 AM
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Originally Posted by desertjosh View Post
This!! Look at SB 755 for a prime example of it.
the list of things that get you a prohibition are just bananas, so many little things that are just plain meaningless and totally unrelated to owning a firearm. It really reaches into the grey area of taking guns from felons/criminals if you stretch that to include a whole slew of misdemeanors. Lose your guns for speeding may well be coming soon
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