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  #1  
Old 02-16-2013, 9:38 PM
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Default Just had a bad training experience: Los Angeles

Let me start by saying the trainer was a very nice guy, the shooting instruction was decent, and he was fairly professional.

We are going to apply for AZ and FL CCW's, and I needed to take an NRA pistol class to do it. Richard Moreno offers such classes twice a month at his East LA Security firm office, with shooting portions of the class at the LA Gun Club.

Paying was easy, making the appt. was easy, the class was small.

Now the bad:

for 10 hours, the three of us read the NRA textbook to each other out loud. Occasionally Richard would demonstrate something or have us do something practical.

We then waited in line at LA Gun Club for over an hour watching people who don't know how to handle guns violate every safety rule you can imagine. Even the concept of only opening one door at a time is too much: I put in earplugs in the lobby.

In total, I spent 12 hours and $130 to drive 12 miles each way, fire 44 rounds of .45 ammo through my own pistol. My wife spent a similar amount.

To make things worse: he passed off his own personal opinions of CA law as fact. He told me in no uncertain terms I was breaking the law because I transported my pistols in locked soft-sided padded cases. He told me I had to use DOJ approved hardshell cases. He then showed me a book that contained the Penal Code, and in a commentary made it perfectly clear that hard cases were not required by the law. In his mind he'd proved his point. There were other similar instances, mostly relating to storage and transport laws.

I got the certificate, so my needs were met, but I would not bring someone to this class to introduce them to pistols.

I hope other NRA classes are not like this.

When I think of how much I learned in 3 hours at the OC Indoor Gun Range...
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Old 02-16-2013, 9:52 PM
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does not sound like it was very good.

my wife and I were going shooting today and were going to shoot at the LA gun club. I was meeting another calgunner to sell something. we got there early so we went in to look around.

After a few minutes of looking around we decided to go back to Artesia gun range
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Old 02-16-2013, 9:58 PM
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Thanks for the heads up. I'll stay away from those guys. The OC..indoor range, on the other hand, is always good.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:02 PM
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Insight in Artesia weekends= Gangster's Paradise
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:02 PM
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Spent 12 hrs? And shot 44 rounds? Wow
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:07 PM
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Insight in Artesia weekends= Gangster's Paradise
+1 on that.. But the crew are nice and very helpful..
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Old 02-17-2013, 6:13 AM
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I have similar feeling over the class given in my area.

The guy that teaches it is a nice enough fellow, but 90% of the class consist of everyone taking turns and reading aloud a chapter from a late 60's vintage gun safety pamphlet. After the chapter is read aloud we go through the chapter questions one by one asking different people at random to give an answer. This takes five or six hours.

The live fire part only consist of shooing 20 rounds or so. What takes forever is the instructor insists on collecting your empty brass, if your using a semi-auto, and then using that brass to setup a malfunction. Trying to re-chamber a dented up out of spec piece of empty brass isn't something I like the sound of so that's about the time I break out a revolver. It was pretty clear during live fire that more of the class could be centered around actually shooting a firearm.
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Old 02-17-2013, 2:19 PM
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When I was a college student the instruction quality was so bad it pushed me into teaching.

I got that same itch sitting in class yesterday. I'll have to do more research into how hard it is to become an NRA "Basic Pistol" instructor...
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Old 02-17-2013, 2:58 PM
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http://training.nra.org/training/bec...nstructor.aspx

Our instructor did mention classes he offers to wanna be instructors....in case you're interested. ;-}
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Old 02-17-2013, 4:08 PM
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What are the trainers credentials? Ex Cop, ex military? Have a CCW? Been in a shooting(s)? What gun fighting schools has he been to? Gunsite or Frontsight? Active competition shooter (USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/3-gun)? Or just a bunch of NRA paper certs........ You get what you pay for, check it out next time.

Last edited by HighLander51; 02-17-2013 at 4:56 PM..
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Old 02-17-2013, 5:22 PM
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NRA classes have to be run per the NRA curriculum, no leeway there so you can't blame the instructor on the content. But the way it is presented, that seperates a good instructor from a bad one. Sounds like you found a bad one. Your other complaints about misinformation seem warented, this instructor is clearly lacking in knowledge of current laws.
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Old 02-17-2013, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BigFatGuy View Post

We then waited in line at LA Gun Club for over an hour watching people who don't know how to handle guns violate every safety rule you can imagine. Even the concept of only opening one door at a time is too much: I put in earplugs in the lobby.
Thanks for the heads up on the Los Angeles Gun Club. Never been there and hopefully never will.

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Insight in Artesia weekends= Gangster's Paradise
Be very aware if you go to any public range on weekends (or holidays). In such a must event, paranoia will serve you well.
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Last edited by ramzar; 02-17-2013 at 7:00 PM.. Reason: ... or holidays ...
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Old 02-17-2013, 6:24 PM
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Is this the guy? http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardfmoreno

His credentials would look impressive to your average Joe but when yoh start reading it it is fluff, like most resumes.
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Old 02-17-2013, 6:26 PM
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Let me give a plug... Once again... To The Gun Store in Las Vegas

They offer a free CCW class for Nevada, Utah and Florida

It is an all day affair for the class and the shooting- but heck- you still are in Vegas after all
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Old 02-17-2013, 6:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighLander51 View Post
What are the trainers credentials? Ex Cop, ex military? Have a CCW? Been in a shooting(s)? What gun fighting schools has he been to? Gunsite or Frontsight? Active competition shooter (USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/3-gun)? Or just a bunch of NRA paper certs........ You get what you pay for, check it out next time.
Since this sounds like a NRA Basic Pistol class, it follows a particular lesson plan. So, no matter what the instructor's credentials are, he/she is required to teach the class the same way. The class is not about how to use a firearm for self defense it is an intro class to learn how to safely handle a pistol.
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Old 02-17-2013, 7:04 PM
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Since this sounds like a NRA Basic Pistol class, it follows a particular lesson plan. So, no matter what the instructor's credentials are, he/she is required to teach the class the same way. The class is not about how to use a firearm for self defense it is an intro class to learn how to safely handle a pistol.
Sorry but that does not preclude THE instructor's credentials.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:36 PM
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In my industry I run into inspectors with certs and degrees all the time. All it means is they know how to read and pass a test. In the end it all comes down to this one simple question... "can you teach me what I need to know, properly?" I don't need a Navy Seal who did 5 tours in each gulf war if Joe Blow can connect with me and teach with a better end result.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:06 PM
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His credentials are better than mine would be if I started teaching: he was Law enforcement, been in some gunfights, runs his own security firm.

The thing is, I'm literate. It's silly to have the class read the book out loud when I could read it myself faster and get more from it. (the book is actually pretty good, once I read it. If he's doing this to avoid lecturing... that's just lazy.

This is an introductory class. You don't need to be a high-speed operator to teach it: you need to be a teacher. At the higher level classes, you need more experience. I would never presume to teach a class on, say, sporting clays or house clearing, but a class on sight alignment, sight picture, and not pointing the gun at another person... that I could teach the hell out of, with a bit more knowledge and time.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by hermosabeach View Post
Let me give a plug... Once again... To The Gun Store in Las Vegas

They offer a free CCW class for Nevada, Utah and Florida

It is an all day affair for the class and the shooting- but heck- you still are in Vegas after all
I say this with no malice, but the last time I went there I found the place to operate in a highly McDonald-ized manner, and I felt very unsafe with the sheer number of people stuffed into the shooting lanes as they pumped their customers through like cattle.

Free is good, but I'd rather pay and support another business.
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Old 02-18-2013, 5:46 AM
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His credentials are better than mine would be if I started teaching: he was Law enforcement, been in some gunfights, runs his own security firm.

The thing is, I'm literate. It's silly to have the class read the book out loud when I could read it myself faster and get more from it. (the book is actually pretty good, once I read it. If he's doing this to avoid lecturing... that's just lazy.

This is an introductory class. You don't need to be a high-speed operator to teach it: you need to be a teacher. At the higher level classes, you need more experience. I would never presume to teach a class on, say, sporting clays or house clearing, but a class on sight alignment, sight picture, and not pointing the gun at another person... that I could teach the hell out of, with a bit more knowledge and time.
The instructor wasn't being lazy. That is exactly how the NRA class is supposed to be taught. Not everybody learns the same. You seem to have previous firearms experience and don't understand that most people retain more by participating in classes. Maybe the NRA classes just aren't for you?
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Old 02-18-2013, 6:45 PM
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I agree completely with CSA. This is how the NRA classes are supposed to be taught. Somehow the parts about how learning occurs and what is most effective were missed. Telling someone vs. showing them vs. all of the above will yield different results. If you were taking an NRA Certified *insert discipline here* course, you are required to read from the book to the class as well as teach (sometimes in groups) to show the counselor that you have grasped the concepts and can instruct others efficiently. It is in your best interest to do this as you learn more, which is why I offer my services for free to assist in teaching any of the disciplines I'm certified in. At the end of next month it will consist of - Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO and Metallic Cartridge Reloading.
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Old 02-18-2013, 6:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
The instructor wasn't being lazy. That is exactly how the NRA class is supposed to be taught. Not everybody learns the same. You seem to have previous firearms experience and don't understand that most people retain more by participating in classes. Maybe the NRA classes just aren't for you?
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I agree completely with CSA. This is how the NRA classes are supposed to be taught. Somehow the parts about how learning occurs and what is most effective were missed. Telling someone vs. showing them vs. all of the above will yield different results. If you were taking an NRA Certified *insert discipline here* course, you are required to read from the book to the class as well as teach (sometimes in groups) to show the counselor that you have grasped the concepts and can instruct others efficiently. It is in your best interest to do this as you learn more, which is why I offer my services for free to assist in teaching any of the disciplines I'm certified in. At the end of next month it will consist of - Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO and Metallic Cartridge Reloading.
No BS here ^^^^

But I will say, that as an NRA Instructor in all courses except black powder, there are more engaging ways of doing this and, well, less engaging. Having students present the core material (yes, translate to read the book), then facilitate a discussion of students' experience or thoughts on those points, reinforces the key concepts, including practical demonstrations where possible and then moving on keeps stuff interesting and fresh, for the students and the instructor. If the instructor is basically phoning it in, well, that can be pretty boring.
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Old 02-18-2013, 7:21 PM
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At the end of next month it will consist of - Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO and Metallic Cartridge Reloading.
With my habit of procrastinating, it probably won't be until May until I'll have those plus shotshell reloading. Hopefully, I'll find and take instructor courses in all three muzzleloading disciplines by the end of summer. I need a tax deductible reason to buy a flintlock squirrel rifle and a flinter fowling piece. Wanna hit Vegas with me for a muzzleloading shotgun instructor course?
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Old 02-18-2013, 7:36 PM
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I would give TJ Johnston a call for future NRA classes. He's a great instructor.

www.allsafedefense.com
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Old 02-18-2013, 9:24 PM
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Old 02-18-2013, 9:27 PM
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Wow... that's the official NRA method of instruction?

As a teacher myself, I'm stunned... like, I just found out Santa Claus isn't real stunned.

I guess the comment above is right. NRA classes just aren't for me.
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Old 02-18-2013, 9:28 PM
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AZ and FLA? I thought UT and FLA were best? In NV. I think Clark county is separate. (Vegas)
Utah takes another class. I'll have to check on clark county, but Nevada takes AZ, and FL is just another piece of paperwork once you've taken the class for AZ.
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Old 02-18-2013, 9:40 PM
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I would give TJ Johnston a call for future NRA classes. He's a great instructor.

www.allsafedefense.com
+1 for TJ. There is a little bit of time to read on your own but you do class participations etc. Right personality for it too, not an egomaniac.
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Old 02-18-2013, 9:58 PM
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OP, what exact course were you taking?


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Wanna hit Vegas with me for a muzzleloading shotgun instructor course?
Must... resist... more... aw, why not. PM me with info.
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:31 PM
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Now the bad:

for 10 hours, the three of us read the NRA textbook to each other out loud. Occasionally Richard would demonstrate something or have us do something practical.

We then waited in line at LA Gun Club for over an hour watching people who don't know how to handle guns violate every safety rule you can imagine. Even the concept of only opening one door at a time is too much: I put in earplugs in the lobby.

In total, I spent 12 hours and $130 to drive 12 miles each way, fire 44 rounds of .45 ammo through my own pistol. My wife spent a similar amount.

To make things worse: he passed off his own personal opinions of CA law as fact. He told me in no uncertain terms I was breaking the law because I transported my pistols in locked soft-sided padded cases. He told me I had to use DOJ approved hardshell cases. He then showed me a book that contained the Penal Code, and in a commentary made it perfectly clear that hard cases were not required by the law. In his mind he'd proved his point. There were other similar instances, mostly relating to storage and transport laws.

I got the certificate, so my needs were met, but I would not bring someone to this class to introduce them to pistols.

I hope other NRA classes are not like this.

When I think of how much I learned in 3 hours at the OC Indoor Gun Range...
I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience. It definitely does not sound like a very entertaining class given the way the content was presented. Just for your information the NRA Basic Pistol Course should only be 8 hours. The NRA provides the written training material and power point presentations for their instructors. They also encourage a majority of practical hands on exercises, and class participation as it enhances the learning experience.

The best thing I can tell you is to leave a real review on Yelp so the next guy goes in knowing what to expect.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:10 PM
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OP, what exact course were you taking?
Basic Pistol
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:05 AM
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FWIW I took a CCW class, it was less than informative IMO with "bad" information on transport. I still got my permit.

LA Gun Club?!? LOL I went there a few years ago, I see it hasn't changed. I thought I was going to get shot through the observation window, so I didn't stick around long. It's straight gangsta alright.
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Old 02-28-2013, 7:06 AM
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http://training.nra.org/training/bec...nstructor.aspx

Our instructor did mention classes he offers to wanna be instructors....in case you're interested. ;-}
Part of the problem w/ NRA Classes, is that at the very beginning of the Instruction, the class material states what the Minimum amount of time, is required.

IMO, not everyone requires 8 hours of classtime to be an RSO. If a person needs that much time, then they shouldn't be an RSO, IMO.
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Actually I only started collecting Milsurps 3 years ago. I think I might own about 24...They're cheaper than guns that will most likely never get the opportunity to kill somebody...

Boycott Guns Fishing & Other Stuff in Vacaville!

Tis better to have Trolled & lost, Than to never have Trolled, at all.

Member: NRA, CRPA, IDPA, Diablo Rod & Gun, Local 39
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