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Old 07-29-2013, 10:28 PM
KABA556 KABA556 is offline
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Originally Posted by spitter3 View Post
While it is indeed possible to load 00 buck into a 2 3/4" or 3" 20 gauge shotgun shell with the proper components, it is not an efficient way to deliver maximum killing energy to the target for this gauge, and it just isn't worth the trouble. This is because 20 gauge has a bore of about .615", 00 Buckshot is about .33" in diameter, so they will not "stack" evenly into "tiers" in the shell and in a shot cup (and therefore don't pattern well), and you can't fit enough 00 into the shell to make for an effective load. Most factory 20 gauge buckshot shells are loaded with either #2 (about .27") or #3 buckshot (about .25").
What I find odd is that you can't find them in 20 ga. but you can find 000 buckshot .410 loads 3" with 5 pellets.

There have been several cases of individuals shot in the chest, having their heart blasted, and still continuing to offer meaningful resistance for 10-15 seconds.

There was a case where an individual was hit dead center in the heart by a .357 magnum and ran about 50 yards while firing at police, before he fell over dead.


Considerably better documented is the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, people on both sides sustained major wounds that should probably have taken them out of the fight, especially the bad guys [especially Platt].


The absolute best source- W. French, M.D.: Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight.



Not even a round of 12 gauge 00 buckshot to the chest can be counted on to instantly stop somebody. Top medical experts [such as Dr. W. French] conclude that the only certain way to "instantly stop" a determined attacker is to hit them in the central nervous system of the brain or hit them in the upper spinal column.

A center mass hit from a round of 00 buckshot will probably stop 98% of assailants, but there's always that select few who just won't go down.


Keep in mind at the FBI Miami Shootout, both of the bad guys were ex-military, and Platt [the guy who took the most damage and who did the most damage] was a former Army Ranger. He sustained major injuries prior to his devastating assault that left two special agents dead and several seriously wounded. Despite having suffered a collapsed right lung [the bullet stopped just short of his heart], a nasty hit to his right brachial artery, and a hit that cut his right ulnar artery, he was able to continue fighting, advance on the FBI, and he went on to kill two and wound numerous agents.


I don't expect to encounter a Platt in the parking lot at the store or climbing through my window at 2:00 am, but my primary home defense weapon is a suppressed SBR AR-15 and when out and about I always carry multiple spare magazines [on my person] for my primary carry pistol, in addition to carrying a fully loaded back-up pistol, because I assume that whoever attacks me might be a Platt or they might be as capable as Platt but they might be on drugs or wearing body armor [neither Platt nor Mattix wore body armor and neither had any drugs or alcohol in their system, and each man was hit at least 6 times by solid shots.

Look at that woman in Georgia who recently had her home invaded. She retreated into the attic with her child, the man still pursued her. He burst through the door into the attic, she shot him 5 times in the face/head with a 38 special and he managed to run outside, still alive!

I assume that any assailant who attacks me, is capable of taking an entire pistol magazine without slowing down let alone being stopped. I would even assume that they are capable of taking a round of 00 buckshot [except to the head] and still continuing to attack.



In Miami in the 1986 shootout Mireles was not able to end the situation with his shotgun and even though he achieved solid hits on Platt's feet with 00 buckshot [check out the autoposy photos and the x-ray scans] Platt was not even knocked off his feet and Platt was able to continue walking, having suffered multiple wounds from 00 pellets to both of his feet. Ultimately Mireles put Platt down with a round of 38 special + P to the spinal cord. This is a guy who had lost about 1500 mL of blood, had lost the use of his right lung, had his right arm torn up, most of the bones in his right hand were trashed, and his feet were filled with buckshot pellets, and he was still walking and shooting.

If they had known that they were going to be in that sort of a fight that day, they probably would each have brought an M16 along on the rolling stake-out and left the shotguns behind.


I have a Remington 870 AOW shotgun with a 12.5 inch barrel [overall it is about 24 inches long], it can hold 4+1, it can handle 3" magnum, I have a Knox Tactical pistol grip on it that does a lot to balance out recoil through the internal spring system in the grip [you can actually shoot the thing one-handed], and a side saddle holder to carry an additional 6 shells, and a Surefire light [the sort that goes in place of the manufacturer's pump], I don't see a problem with keeping this around for home defense, but it isn't my first choice. A shotgun is going to be very loud and I don't know of an easy way to suppress the weapon. Keeping size to a minimum, I much prefer the suppressed SBR AR with 30 rounds available.

But I realize this is a CA board and most people won't have those options available, so a CA legal minimum length Remington 870 would probably be a decent choice, but I would also consider the M1 Carbine.

Especially if there is a woman who is concerned about her ability to handle the kick of a 12 gauge with 3" 00 buckshot, she might consider an M1 Carbine. There are excellent defense loadings available in 30 Carbine these days and the 30 Carbine round has about 3x the overall power/punch as the .45 ACP. The M1 Carbine is a very handy little rifle and with multiple rounds immediately available, it should get the job done.



Anyway-

Again- this book


http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Dr. Anderson's Ordering Instructions for Obtaining Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight

If an individual is a member of the FBI, he/she can get a copy from the FBI Academy in Quantico VA; if they are a member of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers (ASLET) or the International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA), they can get a copy by contacting the main office of the organization. Any other law enforcement officer (of any type, in any country) can receive a copy (at least until the supply runs out; 23,000 have already been distributed) by sending a request on their department or company leaderhead together with a self-addressed stamped ($1.24, Book Rate) 10" x 12" envelope to me at:

W. French Anderson, M.D.
Norris Cancer Center, #612
USC School of Medicine
Los Angeles CA 90033

Last edited by KABA556; 07-29-2013 at 10:35 PM..
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