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-   Competition, Action Shooting And Training. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=19)
-   -   Great reading (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=755496)

Brian1979 05-02-2013 6:10 AM

Great reading
 
Some of us already felt this way and others dont. I think the article does a great job blending the 2 schools of thought together. Pay close attention to what is said about competition vs defensive training, dry fire vs live fire, human self preservation being instinct, and what competition can do for you on the streets. My favorite point is learning to push speed through competition and see at what point you start to break apart and understand how to tune that down or up while maintaining accuracy. So many great points about the mental side of walking stages and understanding a plan and then expecuting it. Many seem to think that isnt realistic and can hurt you in SD but those of compete know better. At the end of the article he suggests competing to surround yourself with BETTER shooters.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...l/286-may-2013

D.carden 05-02-2013 9:07 AM

Ya, both have good skill building opportunities if only gun handling is what you're after. But they have weakness's also..... Competitors rehearse what they do. Start positions are predictable, gear is mostly of 'race' style..... Self defense folks practice 'operator' style with gear to match..... Neither are realistic in day-to-day living..... I've yet to see a video or class that simulates getting out of bed in your PJ's, or off the couch wearing flip flops and shorts with a beer in one hand and the remote in the other with a home invasion staring you in the face..... Basically, training (if it's possible) for the element of surprise..... Where's your gun??.. in the safe??... are you carrying??... Can you make a shot from your position without killing the kid next door in their room if you miss.... Building shooting skills is one thing, but the 'real deal' is another..... Either way, competition is good for the soul..!!!!

HighLander51 05-02-2013 9:30 AM

Brian doesn't use a 'race gun' he uses a Glock 21 or 1911 from concealment but he does wear 511 Tactical pants.... Actually IDPA has scenarios very close to what you describe.


You guys do know who Michael Seeklander is? Competitve shooter, ex marine and ex cop. He is also a kick *** GM.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNnKlnsrxIw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JpN6UjWyaI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xencS-HvOFs

PM720 05-02-2013 6:53 PM

I don't recall seeing him miss that much with the Glock! ;) :D

Scott

Brian1979 05-03-2013 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.carden (Post 11244795)
Ya, both have good skill building opportunities if only gun handling is what you're after. But they have weakness's also..... Competitors rehearse what they do. Start positions are predictable, gear is mostly of 'race' style..... Self defense folks practice 'operator' style with gear to match..... Neither are realistic in day-to-day living..... I've yet to see a video or class that simulates getting out of bed in your PJ's, or off the couch wearing flip flops and shorts with a beer in one hand and the remote in the other with a home invasion staring you in the face..... Basically, training (if it's possible) for the element of surprise..... Where's your gun??.. in the safe??... are you carrying??... Can you make a shot from your position without killing the kid next door in their room if you miss.... Building shooting skills is one thing, but the 'real deal' is another..... Either way, competition is good for the soul..!!!!

I have a gun on me or with in arms reach all the time. Yes I can make the shot. Do take note of what he said about studying the stages how this relates to real scenarios in SD. I always have a plan and analyze a design depending where I am at. This all due to competition and needing to do the same to engage a stage quickly and accurately.

Brian1979 05-03-2013 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PM720 (Post 11249395)
I don't recall seeing him miss that much with the Glock! ;) :D

Scott

I am in the glock again, lol

Redwing_762 05-03-2013 11:33 AM

One thing that has not yet been mentioned is combat mindset. Speed and accuracy are important but without combat mindset and the will to fight, the prior are pointless.

gun fu 05-03-2013 1:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwing_762 (Post 11254368)
One thing that has not yet been mentioned is combat mindset. Speed and accuracy are important but without combat mindset and the will to fight, the prior are pointless.

I agree, I feel can only be learned though controlled experience, not read or studied in lecture .. Speed and accuracy is an acquired skill, through practice it becomes subconscious, ingrained. Hence, why I shoot competitively. One must have both, not one or the other.

Guys, what is the best way you practice/ develop this?
Especially we are dealing with firearms, we really can't "spar".

Short of enlisting into military or LE, what about these as possible solutions?

Airsoft ?(force on force)
Paintball ?
Martial arts/MMA ? (Learned alot from my early Kenpo days)

Thanks!

D.carden 05-03-2013 4:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1979 (Post 11253887)
I have a gun on me or with in arms reach all the time. Yes I can make the shot. Do take note of what he said about studying the stages how this relates to real scenarios in SD. I always have a plan and analyze a design depending where I am at. This all due to competition and needing to do the same to engage a stage quickly and accurately.

Your definitely a better man than I am...... I dont have the luxury of having a gun all the time..... Also, i've seen plans fail, even at matches. Plan B goes to hell, then the wheels fall off ...aka.. 'the disaster factor'. Happens to everyone... Probably even you.... But in the real world, you die when it fails.......

D.carden 05-03-2013 4:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gun fu (Post 11255138)
I agree, I feel can only be learned though controlled experience, not read or studied in lecture .. Speed and accuracy is an acquired skill, through practice it becomes subconscious, ingrained. Hence, why I shoot competitively. One must have both, not one or the other.

Guys, what is the best way you practice/ develop this?
Especially we are dealing with firearms, we really can't "spar".

Short of enlisting into military or LE, what about these as possible solutions?

I dont think there are any solutions..... Any kind of training you involve yourself in will always have some sort of rules/safety/gear requirements no matter how aggressive, hence MMA. Those guys beat the hell out of each other, but they still have rules.... I could go on for ever...!!! Kinda hard to make a plan when you dont know what's coming at you, from where, and how many.... key word 'how many'....

D.carden 05-03-2013 4:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwing_762 (Post 11254368)
One thing that has not yet been mentioned is combat mindset. Speed and accuracy are important but without combat mindset and the will to fight, the prior are pointless.

^^^This^^^....

HighLander51 05-03-2013 4:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.carden (Post 11256650)
Your definitely a better man than I am...... I dont have the luxury of having a gun all the time..... Also, i've seen plans fail, even at matches. Plan B goes to hell, then the wheels fall off ...aka.. 'the disaster factor'. Happens to everyone... Probably even you.... But in the real world, you die when it fails.......

What do you shoot? USPSA? or IDPA?

readysetgo 05-03-2013 4:42 PM

Tagged to read later. Thanks OP.

Quick thought about the subject... "I know for certain, I would not like to be in a gun fight against a lot of the pro shooters!"

D.carden 05-03-2013 4:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ready_eSeVe (Post 11256918)
Tagged to read later. Thanks OP.

Quick thought about the subject... "I know for certain, I would not like to be in a gun fight against a lot of the pro shooters!"

Me neither......

D.carden 05-03-2013 4:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighLander51 (Post 11256901)
What do you shoot? USPSA? or IDPA?

USPSA a while back..... Never tried IDPA...

Brian1979 05-03-2013 5:40 PM

Plans fail and we quickly learn to adapt which is a great skill to have. Get a malfunction under the clock vs induced by an instructor who talks you through it. Etc.

I agree with Gun Fu there is no preparing for this stuff but the only constant variable is gun handling and making the gun an extension of your finger. For me I pick up a gun like its a pencil and am still working on things each time I practice but it sure is comforting knowing my around a firearm, especially one I carry.

Now my glock is in the safe and my S&W 640 is here ready to go for tonight's house party. Much easier to deal with in those situations. :)

D.carden 05-03-2013 8:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1979 (Post 11257322)
Plans fail and we quickly learn to adapt which is a great skill to have. Get a malfunction under the clock vs induced by an instructor who talks you through it. Etc.

Please tell me you're kidding...... Under the clock.!!!.... an instructor.!!!! How about a thug pointing a gun at you're head..... Now that is stress...... Man you need to get this competition thing as a 'end all, i can save the world' notion out of you're head.... If the guy who win's the match is the only one that survives the fight...... You loose... every time..!!!!.... Nobody gets to sign a score sheet when the dust settles in the real world..... I'll try to find a link to an article that came across my FB page recently that will summarize where i'm headed with this.....

Brian1979 05-04-2013 6:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.carden (Post 11258507)
Please tell me you're kidding...... Under the clock.!!!.... an instructor.!!!! How about a thug pointing a gun at you're head..... Now that is stress...... Man you need to get this competition thing as a 'end all, i can save the world' notion out of you're head.... If the guy who win's the match is the only one that survives the fight...... You loose... every time..!!!!.... Nobody gets to sign a score sheet when the dust settles in the real world..... I'll try to find a link to an article that came across my FB page recently that will summarize where i'm headed with this.....

Yeah and where would we practice this at? The idea isnt that competition is the same stress you will experience on the street but it is a stress and practices gun handling skills among other things.

I dont understand where people think they are going to get this sort of practice ever. Perhaps you could pay a company to stage a random attack on you but give me a break its not realistic no matter what we do.

The only constant is gun handling and your ability to shoot. Everything else is forever changing and can not be rehearsed.

HighLander51 05-04-2013 5:05 PM

I must be missing something. If you don't do paid training on a regular basis, or shoot organized competition on a regular basis, or practice standard drills on a regular basis, and if something happens for real, do you just pretend it will all come together?

D.carden 05-04-2013 5:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighLander51 (Post 11264496)
I must be missing something. If you don't do paid training on a regular basis, or shoot organized competition on a regular basis, or practice standard drills on a regular basis, and if something happens for real, do you just pretend it will all come together?

I guess that depends on the individual..and their skill level.....!!!... I'll assume you frequent a gym for kettle bell training or cross fit, maybe even a martial art of some sort for the hand-to-hand aspect of self defense..Definetly need experience in that department too dont you think.. ??? After all, most of us in Ca cant/dont have a LTC...!!! So, whats the next best option..??

Brian1979 05-04-2013 8:53 PM

Ninja with a gun? I dont get it...

D.carden 05-04-2013 8:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1979 (Post 11265897)
Ninja with a gun? I dont get it...

Now that's funny...!!!.. You mean Ninja without a gun....!!!..Based on your reply on post #5, I'll assume you are LEO of some sort.???...Yes..???

TMC 05-04-2013 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.carden (Post 11256987)
USPSA a while back..... Never tried IDPA...

don't be fooled by his mild mannered appearance, Dan got to the top of USPSA as well as being a top level 3-gunner when he was playing the games regularly.

Brian1979 05-05-2013 5:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.carden (Post 11265928)
Now that's funny...!!!.. You mean Ninja without a gun....!!!..Based on your reply on post #5, I'll assume you are LEO of some sort.???...Yes..???

Not at all. Just a CCW'er who uses competition to practice. For me its much better then anything else I can think of for this purpose. Sure it would be great to get in a gun fight if nobody dies but how is that possible? There are not ways to practice the "real thing" so we all have our own idea of how to prepare. I see value in competition more then I do class style settings. If I had unlimited money perhaps I would just take classes but I feel what they can offer is very limited in terms of whats needed in gun handling. IE... you have to practice what you learned and not just keep taking classes.

I do have a friend in high belt karate and my kid is in it. I would love to enroll and learn things but dont have time to do it all. If I had no ccw I am sure I would make that my skill set.

IPSICK 05-05-2013 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMC (Post 11266626)
don't be fooled by his mild mannered appearance, Dan got to the top of USPSA as well as being a top level 3-gunner when he was playing the games regularly.

He especially sucked with a revolver!


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