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DK9mm 04-28-2013 2:37 PM

Shotgun ammo help.... Question...
 
Hello all, I'm new here to the forum and will be picking up my 1st SG Wednesday... Mossberg 500 combo!

Looking for a good home defense and target practice shells...

I seen some Winchester AA for $10 for 25.....

Good deal for target?

Any guidance will be appreciated.

Thanks!

negolien 04-28-2013 3:05 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like the Shotgun for HD for the simple reason you can load it to minimize over penetration and for particular encounters. Any Handgun you use is going thru a few walls no doubt about it. Any Buckshot you use is going thru a few walls no doubt about it. You also are going to be jacked up making aiming problematic. The shotgun must be employed correctly in a HD situation also. You take up a position that defends a choke point , call 911 immediately while yelling you are armed and willing to use deadly force and racking the action chambering your 1st round of #8.

Do some google searches on Birdshot penetration. People can run their mouths all they want about buckshot but the tests don't lie. I saw an outstanding piece on one of the outdoor channel shows on penetration of shotgun ammo. Any buckshot is penetrating a minimum of two pieces of drywall or one complete wall. You hit someone at 7 yards or closer (the average distance of defense engagements) with some #8 and that's going to seriously hamper the bad guys determination to continue the attack. It's also going to stop the attack at least momentarily if not permanently. No one let me say that again NO ONE is going to take a 12 gauge blast without at least temporarily being stopped cold at such a close range. I stagger the loads also keeping my Shotty "Cruiser Ready" or empty chamber, safety off tube full with 1 round of #8, 3 rounds of 000 and finally a slug. the #8 is also a good trap/skeet load imo.

Shotguns are great for defense and my 1st choice. I only go with the Handgun because of the inability to carry a shotgun for defense wherever you go lol. Below is a link to one of my favorite Birdshot myth busting videos.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...=0&FORM=NVPFVR

CessnaDriver 04-28-2013 3:13 PM

I suspect over penetration is fretted over a bit too much though.
Are there many reported instances of HD situations where over penetration has indeed caused an unintended injury?

Joe'Bronco 04-28-2013 3:17 PM

I agree, i keep the handgun for home protection. Although nothing says, "You mess with me, your gunna die" like the rack of a shotgun.

I have always said that multi round types are best for home defence. It lets you get your point across starting with a potentially lethal round and moving up. By the time you shoot the Buck or Slug your family/neighbors should know to either hit the ground or GTFO of the way.

First shot - #7.5
Second - #4
Third - OO Buck (or Dime load)
Forth - Slug
Fifth - Slug

Pancakes 04-28-2013 3:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe'Bronco (Post 11212464)
I agree, i keep the handgun for home protection. Although nothing says, "You mess with me, your gunna die" like the rack of a shotgun.

I have always said that multi round types are best for home defence. It lets you get your point across starting with a potentially lethal round and moving up. By the time you shoot the Buck or Slug your family/neighbors should know to either hit the ground or GTFO of the way.

First shot - #7.5
Second - #4
Third - OO Buck (or Dime load)
Forth - Slug
Fifth - Slug

Now that's a damn good combo.. I may have to switch to that

shellslinger 04-28-2013 3:49 PM

I may have a different view all other posters but, I agree with them to some extent. I stick to strictly buckshot. I don't fire my shotgun in a home defense situation without the intention to permanently stop a threat. I am not saying that birdshot doesn't have the capacity or the capabilities of stopping a threat, but I firmly believe that buckshot gives me the best capabilities of stopping a threat more adequately. That being said, I only use buckshot (00 buckshot and 0 buckshot) for home defense.

HOGLEG 04-28-2013 3:56 PM

My favorite Anti Birdshot for home defense myth busting videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIfilArIHlY

The good new is that your Mossberg will eat any round you use in it.

Birdshot lacks penetration to reach vital organs. If you are worried about your back drop, this same issue works in your favor.

For home defense under 25 yards I'll use 04 buckshot or 00 buckshot to stop the threat. You can cut back on some of the excessive penetration and recoil by using tactical loads.

The birdshot is great for training. $10.00 for AA is a little on the high side but not by much for these times. You should still shoot some buck to learn how your shot gun patterns at different ranges.

rromeo 04-28-2013 3:58 PM

For Target use, I was buying the Federal or Remington bulk packs from Walmart. Since they've raised prices, I now buy Remington Gun Club at Dicks for $7 a box.
The Winchester AA is good stuff, but don't confuse the Winchester Universal. It's crap.
For defense, I have Federal 00 buckshot.

Joe'Bronco 04-28-2013 4:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shellslinger (Post 11212653)
I may have a different view all other posters but, I agree with them to some extent. I stick to strictly buckshot. I don't fire my shotgun in a home defense situation without the intention to permanently stop a threat. I am not saying that birdshot doesn't have the capacity or the capabilities of stopping a threat, but I firmly believe that buckshot gives me the best capabilities of stopping a threat more adequately. That being said, I only use buckshot (00 buckshot and 0 buckshot) for home defense.

If its just you and your significant other in your home OO Buck is the way to go. But lets say the "Intruder" is between you and your child's room. Are you willing to take that shot with OOBuck? Or your in an apartment/condo and share a wall with an unsuspecting neighbor...

Bird shot at a range less than 20 feet with a Modified choke is still a kill shot and has a spread of about a softball. Your first shot is normally going to be in a "O-****" mindset and are your aim is going out the window.

Its more of a precaution to anyone else in the home rather than a "shoot to mame" over "Shoot to kill" mindset. Im a firm believer, if you have to pull a gun on someone your planning on useing it to its fullest extent.

Stevod 04-28-2013 4:10 PM

Several years ago, I came across a paper by (from) the International Ballistic Wounds Institute, which stated emphatically that the best load for personal defense and law enforcement is #1 buckshot in a 12 ga. Reason: best lethal penetration w/o over penetration.

They had plenty of studies and tests to back up that claim and I've never found anything which would change my mind.

jeffme 04-28-2013 4:33 PM

I've been away from bird hunting since the laws changed to steel shot. When I could shoot birds at 20-30 yrds and watch them continue flying as if nothing had happened, it was time to quit.

Can you still buy lead shot in Ca? How about all the slugs and 0xxx loads?

I HATE steel, no stopping power!!!

AAShooter 04-28-2013 4:39 PM

I personally am a believer of buck shot for home defense, as well as having slugs available in a side saddle.

I know of no serious professional firearms instructor/school that recommends birdshot for a defensive shotgun (other than for practice) or "staggering loads" in the magazine. Birdshot or buckshot will go through most residential walls and creates a concern for over-penetraion.

Many worry way to much about over-penetration when they need to worry about stopping the threat.

Here is an interesting article for your review:

http://warriortimes.com/2011/06/26/u...ith-bird-shot/

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/...63_634x498.jpg

AAShooter 04-28-2013 4:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DK9mm (Post 11212268)
Hello all, I'm new here to the forum and will be picking up my 1st SG Wednesday... Mossberg 500 combo!

Looking for a good home defense and target practice shells...

I seen some Winchester AA for $10 for 25.....

Good deal for target?

Any guidance will be appreciated.

Thanks!

Assuming your are talking 12 gauge, you can pick a box of birdshot up for about $6/box. For example, Walmart 100-round packs are about that price. Premium ammo (AAs, Nitros, etc) will run more like $8/box on sale.

Quality home defense ammo (assuming low-recoil buck shot), will cost much more per round.

Jet Setter 04-28-2013 4:54 PM

AA at $10 a box is an OK price. The cheapest I have seen them is about $8.50 a box at WM. For target, get some cheap target loads at about $6.80/25. These are usually the Rio, Estate, Win, Federal target loads. Look online but it is only worth it if you buy at least a case worth (250 shells).

Joe'Bronco 04-28-2013 4:59 PM

First off, That spread on his back is NOT close range. Shoot a patterning board at 20ft and the spread is about the size of a softball. A modified choke at 20 yds is a 20" spread with #7.5...

Yes, everyone will agree that Birdshot is less lethal than buck/slugs at a distance. A shot to the chest with bird shot will not only stun the assailant but im sure it will temporarily stop him. If he is within 20 ft it will kill him. That will give you enough time to rack another load and fire again with your family on high alert. If the assailant is close it will most definitely punch a hole into them. Ever shoot a piece of plywood at close range with birdshot? Try it yourself and tell me if a person can live through that.

Again, if i had no one else in my home it would be 100% #1 Buck shot. But if you have a family to think about its going to be a bit different.

AAShooter 04-28-2013 5:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe'Bronco (Post 11213158)
. . . if i had no one else in my home it would be 100% #1 Buck shot. But if you have a family to think about its going to be a bit different.

Whether you are shooting buckshot or birdshot, the zones of fire in the typical California home should not change. Both will penetrate most residential walls.

Another article: http://www.shootingillustrated.com/i...t-vs-birdshot/

Joe'Bronco 04-28-2013 5:19 PM

Penetrate, yes. Continue to be lethal. NO

I have first hand experence being "peppered" with birdshot through an object.
Not fun, but not lethal. If it were buck shot, chances are i would not have been so lucky.

AAShooter 04-28-2013 5:31 PM

Have you considered there may be cases where you want/need to fire through an wall/object to stop a lethal attack on your life or that of our family?

Joe'Bronco 04-28-2013 5:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAShooter (Post 11213377)
Have you considered there may be cases where you want/need to fire through an wall/object to stop a lethal attack on your life or that of our family?

Thats what the follow up rounds are for :smartass:

Joe'Bronco 04-28-2013 5:52 PM

What it really comes down to is what you feel comfortable shooting in your circumstance. Anything coming out of the business end of a shotgun is going to stop an intruder. Even if its rubber balls. It really just depends on where you live, who is in your home.

AAShooter 04-28-2013 5:53 PM

I hope you have time to use them but it sounds like you have a plan well planned out.

loophole 04-28-2013 6:04 PM

I have a question.

What the fock is your main concern - protecting your loved ones, or saving a friggin' sheetrock wall?

While you guys are figuring penetration, spread, or collateral damage from your weapon discharge, the dude has just slit your wife's throat.

AAShooter 04-28-2013 6:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loophole (Post 11213600)
I have a question.

What the fock is your main concern - protecting your loved ones, or saving a friggin' sheetrock wall?

While you guys are figuring penetration, spread, or collateral damage from your weapon discharge, the dude has just slit your wife's throat.

Or shot her . . . or your kid . . . but that 4th round will work.

loophole 04-28-2013 6:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAShooter (Post 11213617)
Or shot her . . . or your kid . . . but that 4th round will work.

I stand corrected.

HOGLEG 04-28-2013 6:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loophole (Post 11213600)
I have a question.

What the fock is your main concern - protecting your loved ones, or saving a friggin' sheetrock wall?

While you guys are figuring penetration, spread, or collateral damage from your weapon discharge, the dude has just slit your wife's throat.

It's not about the wall.:facepalm: It's about the carpet. That's why I have plastic on the floors at all choke points.:rolleyes:

The collateral damage we try to avoid is living and breathing behind those walls. Know your backdrop before you fire.

loophole 04-28-2013 6:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOGLEG (Post 11213650)
The collateral damage we try to avoid is living and breathing behind those walls. Know your backdrop before you fire.

I would take a round before firing an errant one.

negolien 04-28-2013 7:23 PM

Meh...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AAShooter (Post 11213527)
I hope you have time to use them but it sounds like you have a plan well planned out.

The best non lethal weapon in defense situations is a plan trying to "wing it" will leave you dead or in prison /shrug. Muscle memory and fast thinking may even stop the bad guy before you have to resort to deadly force. That my friends is why people who have access to firearms should train like you fight.

As for the loadout's it's fairly simple ...You are responsible for every projectile that leaves the barrel of your firearm.:oji: You try and go John Wayne and blast 3" slugs at the bad guy and miss or hell even hit him and the rounds continue on into the neighbors house killing his 3 year old you're gonna have a new roomate named Buba spooning you at night.

For sporting types of stuff alot of non lead 8's will be fine. I use Independance ammo at $6.99 a box of 25.

L84CABO 04-28-2013 8:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DK9mm (Post 11212268)
Hello all, I'm new here to the forum and will be picking up my 1st SG Wednesday... Mossberg 500 combo!

Looking for a good home defense and target practice shells...

I seen some Winchester AA for $10 for 25.....

Good deal for target?

Any guidance will be appreciated.

Thanks!

Federal Tactical LE 00 with Flite Control is an excellent choice for a defensive round. Comes in 8 pellet and 9 pellet as well as reduced recoil and full power. Gives a nice tight pattern...in my Benelli anyway. YMMV.

For target, the Walmart 100 round bird shot boxes are hard to beat...assuming you can find them in stock.

http://www.targetsportsusa.com/p-308...mmunition.aspx

bernieb90 04-29-2013 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe'Bronco (Post 11213158)
First off, That spread on his back is NOT close range. Shoot a patterning board at 20ft and the spread is about the size of a softball. A modified choke at 20 yds is a 20" spread with #7.5...

Yes, everyone will agree that Birdshot is less lethal than buck/slugs at a distance. A shot to the chest with bird shot will not only stun the assailant but im sure it will temporarily stop him. If he is within 20 ft it will kill him. That will give you enough time to rack another load and fire again with your family on high alert. If the assailant is close it will most definitely punch a hole into them. Ever shoot a piece of plywood at close range with birdshot? Try it yourself and tell me if a person can live through that.

Again, if i had no one else in my home it would be 100% #1 Buck shot. But if you have a family to think about its going to be a bit different.

You make a lot of assumptions that can get you killed. If a guy has a knife at 20 feet you would probably get of one shot before the guy is on top of you. If he has a gun he can easily kill you even if wounded. Then the rest of your family is unprotected.

I hate to bring this up, but many victims of the Boston marathon bombing were hit with high velocity fragments not unlike shot. In many cases they were ball bearings. Some accounts even from the most severely injured indicate they didn't realize how badly they were hurt until they saw the injury or were unable to move due to loss of limbs. Many accounts of people shot or otherwise injured indicate many don't feel the injury until they feel or see it.

Simply wounding a determined, drugged up, or adrenaline fueled attacker will not make them stop what they are doing. The only way to STOP an attack is to make the attacker physiologically incapable of continuing the attack. This means severely damaging vital organs, or hitting the CNS.

Sheetrock is 1/2" - 5/8" thick. If you feel that the shot is no longer cause serious injury after penetrating 1" of sheetrock I can punch through then how will it be able to stop an attacker after penetrating a heavy jacket, thick muscle, and ribs.

The best way to reduce overpenetration is to hit what you are aiming at. That will significantly reduce the risk to people in other rooms. If it is your home you can set up bookshelves, or other barriers in strategic locations (end of hallway) that would also reduce this risk.

People have died because their ammunition didn't penetrate deep enough.

bsg 04-29-2013 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L84CABO (Post 11214534)
Federal Tactical LE 00 with Flite Control is an excellent choice for a defensive round. Comes in 8 pellet and 9 pellet as well as reduced recoil and full power. Gives a nice tight pattern...in my Benelli anyway. YMMV.



+1 to this; the Federal buckshot with flite control also extends the effective distance of buckshot.

i would not employ birdshot for defensive purpose.

RonnieP 04-29-2013 3:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AAShooter (Post 11213035)

Look at that spread. What was the range? If we were going with the 1meter = 1 inch spread, that seems to be about 20ish meters. Also notice how there is no signs of the wading on his back.

prc77 04-29-2013 6:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe'Bronco (Post 11213158)
First off, That spread on his back is NOT close range. Shoot a patterning board at 20ft and the spread is about the size of a softball. A modified choke at 20 yds is a 20" spread with #7.5...

Yes, everyone will agree that Birdshot is less lethal than buck/slugs at a distance. A shot to the chest with bird shot will not only stun the assailant but im sure it will temporarily stop him. If he is within 20 ft it will kill him. That will give you enough time to rack another load and fire again with your family on high alert. If the assailant is close it will most definitely punch a hole into them. Ever shoot a piece of plywood at close range with birdshot? Try it yourself and tell me if a person can live through that.

Again, if i had no one else in my home it would be 100% #1 Buck shot. But if you have a family to think about its going to be a bit different.

I would think that MOST HD shotguns 18"&20" barrels have a Cyl choke, not Mod.

Joe'Bronco 04-29-2013 6:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernieb90 (Post 11215966)
People have died because their ammunition didn't penetrate deep enough.

I call BS

Give me one example Of someone taking a shot of #7.5 to the chest at less than 20' (the average hallway length) and still killing the person who shot them.

AAShooter 04-29-2013 6:53 AM

Although I can't find references off the top of my head, I recall cases where law enforcement officers have had to use multiple shots of buckshot to stop an adversary.

Besides, you may need to engage an attacker are further than 20'.

ElToro 04-29-2013 7:25 AM

Bird shot is for birds. Please us buckshot for HD. pheasants are not tough animals. many times i have seen one hit with say #5 or 6 bird shot at 20-40 feet and they are only winged and still flopping around some times almost running away until you or your dog catch it and snap its neck. Didnt dick Cheney blast his friend at almost point blank and he lived ? Keep what u want in your HD gun but I will stay with 00 in the pipe.

HOGLEG 04-29-2013 3:31 PM

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm Shows penetration of 556 and buckshot/birdshot through drywall. Shotgun stuff is on the end pages.

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=176 Good write up on defensive shotgun rounds. Recommendations and use.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel...N%20AMMUNITION

Just more info to help you make a choice.

CessnaDriver 04-29-2013 3:40 PM

The Federal Tactical LE127 00 can be hard to find right now. Very hard I've been looking for more.

Hornady makes a similar product that also has a "FliteControl" wad called VersaTite, I think they both just
payed the inventor and give it a different name. it's easier to find right now.

negolien 04-29-2013 4:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOGLEG (Post 11220780)
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htmShows penetration of 556 and buckshot/birdshot through drywall. Shotgun stuff is on the end pages.

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=176 Good write up on defensive shotgun rounds. Recommendations and use.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel...N%20AMMUNITION

Just more info to help you make a choice.

The 1st link doesn't work. The 2nd link gives some bad information.The last link doesn't have any shotgun information. Any 12 gauge shotgun load at point blank will most definitely will go thru a wall.

Birdshot at close range won't go thru a wall eh? I beg to differ sir. I also am 100% sure Buckshot will go thru multiple walls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-f-D8Wx73pU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

Joe'Bronco 04-29-2013 5:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by negolien (Post 11221099)
The 1st link doesn't work. The 2nd link gives some bad information.The last link doesn't have any shotgun information. Any 12 gauge shotgun load at point blank will most definitely will go thru a wall.

Birdshot at close range won't go thru a wall eh? I beg to differ sir. I also am 100% sure Buckshot will go thru multiple walls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=-f-D8Wx73pU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

Great videos! These are proof that bird shot WILL kill and not penetrate thru multiple walls. Not just "opinions". Still waiting on someone to give me even one example Of someone taking a shot of #7.5 to the chest at less than 20' and still killing the person who shot them.

I will still say that YES bird shot is not the best for everyone and every situation. Know your home & surroundings and know whats good for your situation. Have a plan and make sure everyone knows it.

HOGLEG 04-29-2013 5:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by negolien (Post 11221099)

Birdshot at close range won't go thru a wall eh? I beg to differ sir.

I never said that.:confused:

Fixed the first link. It should work. It's basically showing the same results that your video shows.http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm


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