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-   -   A CCW comes with a cost (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=718705)

HighLander51 03-06-2013 5:50 PM

A CCW comes with a cost
 
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...191305639.html

Bob Hostetter 03-06-2013 5:57 PM

Wow, you would think that self defense instructors would warn people about stuff like that ...!

Calplinker 03-06-2013 6:38 PM

LTC
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Hostetter (Post 10735003)
Wow, you would think that self defense instructors would warn people about stuff like that ...!

Many do. Here in San Berdoo county the Sheriff's staff recommends at least $1 million in insurance covering both civil and criminal liability.

Until we see some Tort reform, this is a sad reality those of us who carry must face.

As they said during training, "if it's a good shoot, prosecution is the least of you're worries. It's the civil suit that will take your house".

Personally, I have three policies. My homeowners, which I have little faith in as it excludes "intentional acts" and the NRA and USCCA policies. Better than nothing. The HO is coming due and I may switch to State Farm as I hear they have a rider available that provides some protection.

Fate 03-06-2013 7:05 PM

Quote:

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Z6...and400x300.jpg

Generic photo of gun in hand. (Thinkstock)
WTF kind of starter pistol/squirt gun is that? LOL

fendter 03-06-2013 7:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate (Post 10735730)
WTF kind of starter pistol/squirt gun is that? LOL

The long overdue Glock revolver ;)

Charlie50 03-07-2013 5:40 AM

Good write up, good post. I just called my insurance gal (Allstate) to get a price for a million dollar policy. Have not received terms of policy and will not go for it unless it appears to cover me in firearms incident. So far she has told me its going to cost about $400. per year - not sure if thats the best deal. I may start a thread on comparing insurance companies.

Tincon 03-07-2013 5:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie50 (Post 10738859)
Good write up, good post. I just called my insurance gal (Allstate) to get a price for a million dollar policy. Have not received terms of policy and will not go for it unless it appears to cover me in firearms incident. So far she has told me its going to cost about $400. per year - not sure if thats the best deal. I may start a thread on comparing insurance companies.

Make sure to look carefully at the terms. I can tell you that allstate in particular likes to hire big firms to litigate against its insured if it thinks it can save significant money. They are not alone in this however.

Hvac_dude 03-07-2013 7:19 AM

Great article. Its unfortunate that this is a normal reaction to a life saving act. Congrats, you are still alive, now we are going to make your life a living hell.

not-fishing 03-07-2013 7:48 AM

The reality of a CCW in California is you will PAY one way or another.

I knew from the start that it would be Legal Fees that would really hurt.

So I figure:

If the gun is displayed $5,000-$10,000

If the gun is drawn $10,000 - $ 15,000

If the gun is shot $25,000 - $ 40,000

If I hit someone $50,000 - $ 250,000

These costs can be balanced against the medical costs of letting the Violent Criminal have their way. and that ain't going to be cheap either

The question is how much are you willing to pay to defend yourself and your loved ones?

As they say Freedom ain't Free.

diverwcw 03-07-2013 8:04 AM

There is a big difference between can I shoot vs, should I shoot? Nothing wrong with running away to live another day. I have won every single gunfight I ever avoided.

Another way to look at it is think in terms of a lawyer is attached to every bullet you shoot. You are responsible for that bullet from the time it leaves the barrel until it stops traveling. Once you pull that trigger you cannot recall that bullet.

The average gunfight lasts two to three seconds with two to three rounds being fired. That two to three seconds WILL FOREVER change your life and it will definitely NOT be changed for the better.

Mickey D 03-07-2013 8:35 AM

I recommend joining USCCA and use the Self Defense Shield policy.

1meanchevy 03-07-2013 8:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate (Post 10735730)
WTF kind of starter pistol/squirt gun is that? LOL

LOL, :laugh:

therealnickb 03-07-2013 8:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calplinker (Post 10735435)
Many do. Here in San Berdoo county the Sheriff's staff recommends at least $1 million in insurance covering both civil and criminal liability.

Until we see some Tort reform, this is a sad reality those of us who carry must face.

As they said during training, "if it's a good shoot, prosecution is the least of you're worries. It's the civil suit that will take your house".

Personally, I have three policies. My homeowners, which I have little faith in as it excludes "intentional acts" and the NRA and USCCA policies. Better than nothing. The HO is coming due and I may switch to State Farm as I hear they have a rider available that provides some protection.

I've never ever seen an insurance policy that will cover criminal acts. I read one that will reimburse you for a small amount of legal fees if you are acquitted. But that's it.

em9sredbeam 03-07-2013 9:07 AM

tagged.

Casual_Shooter 03-07-2013 9:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey D (Post 10740124)
I recommend joining USCCA and use the Self Defense Shield policy.

There is an issue with your link. Thinking you mean USCCA

cal federal 03-07-2013 11:21 AM

tagged

Brian1979 03-08-2013 5:49 AM

I am with State Farm and when I called I made it very clear that I CCW and wanted an umbrella policy to protect me. They called the underwriters and the way umbrella policy work is they cover any civil liability against our family now for my selected 2 million. They dont cover work related and everything else isnt written what they include or exclude but simply put it covers personal liability. If I am sued for any reason in civil court my polices are all maxed out then a 2 million umbrella kicks in to cover up to that limit.

I have read all the USCCA crap and the others that are out there and its obvious they are "gaming" with the words in order to not pay out. I emailed and asked for the policy limits. There were things in there about the use of "lead" bullets etc. I trust a company like state farm more then I would an out of state deal like what is offered specific to CCW. Besides $300k isnt hardly going to be enough. In addition to that they pay out AFTER you are acquitted. Meaning you cover the costs up until that point.

leadstorm 03-08-2013 7:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1979 (Post 10749560)
I am with State Farm and when I called I made it very clear that I CCW and wanted an umbrella policy to protect me. They called the underwriters and the way umbrella policy work is they cover any civil liability against our family now for my selected 2 million. They dont cover work related and everything else isnt written what they include or exclude but simply put it covers personal liability. If I am sued for any reason in civil court my polices are all maxed out then a 2 million umbrella kicks in to cover up to that limit.

Out of curiousity, which type of policy or policies do you carry with State Farm? Is the protection you refer to for "any civil suit" covered under Homeowner's, Life, Auto, some special policy, or some omnibus "total coverage policy?"

I ask because insurance in my family is spread out all over the place. I've got auto with Geico, my wife has auto under State Farm, and our Homeowner's is under State Farm, and our life insurance is under yet a different provider.

Brian1979 03-08-2013 2:16 PM

We have everything through State Farm so when I added the Umbrella it cost me only $30 a month because of all the discounts for multiple policies. They told me the difference between Umbrella policies and I dont recall what it was. I just know that what they offer is a TRUE Umbrella policy vs what they described others offer which in some way sounds the same but actually isnt. I wish I could recall what I was told but I just know I was happy to have the proper one and signed up.

My understanding is that first you have to max out all your current policy limits then you can add the Umbrella over the top. It covers liability suits brought against me and doesnt include or exclude specific coverages. I guess when someone decides to sue you in civil court our Sheriff Office says they attack where the money is which would be your home owners policy because not many people just have hundreds of thousands sitting in an account. We have a house payment so taking our house or cars isnt worth much when there are loans against them.

We have life, disability, auto, home, and umbrella all through State Farm.

Kid Stanislaus 03-08-2013 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1979 (Post 10753915)
We have a house payment so taking our house or cars isnt worth much when there are loans against them.

Brian, they take the house and you keep on making the payments!:mad:

Brian1979 03-09-2013 5:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kid Stanislaus (Post 10758817)
Brian, they take the house and you keep on making the payments!:mad:

Sucks to be a citizen with stuff they can take! Maybe the illegals have it all figured out, lol.

nocalmike 03-09-2013 6:34 AM

Insurance thread would be a great thing for us CCW folks
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie50 (Post 10738859)
Good write up, good post. I just called my insurance gal (Allstate) to get a price for a million dollar policy. Have not received terms of policy and will not go for it unless it appears to cover me in firearms incident. So far she has told me its going to cost about $400. per year - not sure if thats the best deal. I may start a thread on comparing insurance companies.

That would be a very useful and beneficial thread

therealnickb 03-09-2013 6:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nocalmike (Post 10759664)
That would be a very useful and beneficial thread

It's a pretty complicated issue for a forum. So much bad information is provided in these threads.

1) all insurance policies have exclusions and conditions.

2) there is NO standard umbrella period.

I've said it many times here and elsewhere. You have to read "your" policy! Not what someone on the Internet writes. And while your agent may know what they are talking about, what they "say" is not your insurance policy.

kaligaran 03-10-2013 5:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian1979 (Post 10753915)
We have everything through State Farm so when I added the Umbrella it cost me only $30 a month because of all the discounts for multiple policies. They told me the difference between Umbrella policies and I dont recall what it was. I just know that what they offer is a TRUE Umbrella policy vs what they described others offer which in some way sounds the same but actually isnt. I wish I could recall what I was told but I just know I was happy to have the proper one and signed up.

When I looked into an umbrella policy with state farm, it didn't cover self defense for criminal or civil court/lawyer cost whether it be in your home or not. You may want to investigate further on your policy. Perhaps they have changed it in the last year but as of June 2012, they didn't cover any self-defense related BS. :(

Also note, most of the self defense policies like the ones you get through the NRA endorsed company only pays as a reimbursement if you do not get convicted of a crime.

ryang 03-10-2013 8:22 PM

Here's what you need to find out in a nutshell:
1. Most personal/homeowner liability insurance covers acts of negligence.
2. Most specifically exclude intentional acts.
3. Self-defense (be it with firearm or fists) is an intentional act and therefore excluded unless...
4. Some personal/homeowner liability insurance also state they exempt self-defense from the intentional acts exclusion. (Yes it's a double negative.)
5. Do not go by anything verbal. If it isn't written in your policy it doesn't mean squat. If an agent claims you're covered when what you read in the policy seems to indicate you aren't, ask that agent to put it in writing above their signature. Don't be surprised when they decline.

General 03-10-2013 11:58 PM

I'm pretty sure the NRA sent me something a few months back about a new policy they have. Haven't checked it out though.

rockman 03-11-2013 9:53 AM

Really sad that we have turned into a society that protects the criminals and punishes the law abiding citizen . We have to lock our doors at night, alarm our cars and houses to protect ourselves from criminals. We should have every right to defend our lives against criminals that have no regard to other human beings. We should't have to purchase high insurance to protect our personal property that we have work hard to buy, just to have some dirt bag attack us for no reason and we use whatever force necessary to escape great bodily injury of death. Our Judicial system is becoming a real joke!!

TurboS600 03-14-2013 10:24 PM

Quote:

One of his cases that went to trial involved a motorcyclist whose money was falling out of his pockets on the freeway. The man shot at people who were attempting to steal his cash before he could scoop it back up.

“He plea-bargained to attempted obstruction of a highway, which is a Class C misdemeanor,” Evans told Yahoo News. “He did not receive a complete acquittal, but he sure as heck didn’t get convicted of attempted murder or assault with a deadly weapon.”
:facepalm:

Kid Stanislaus 03-14-2013 11:03 PM

Your standard home owner's policy will not cover you unless it was an "accidental" shooting. Admit to an "accidental" shooting and you can be charged with manslaughter! Its a catch-22.

filthy phil 03-14-2013 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Hostetter (Post 10735003)
Wow, you would think that self defense instructors would warn people about stuff like that ...!

Mine did. $50k average cost

Brian1979 03-16-2013 5:07 AM

Been thinking about this more and will be adding the USCCA as well. I still want the umbrella because it covers many things but since it doesnt outline specific CCW things it cant hurt to add coverage that does.

Kid Stanislaus 03-16-2013 8:19 AM

This is the normal "use a gun bogeyman". Yeah, there are SOME instances of this kind of thing for sure but in the huge overwhelming per cent of the time people's cost for defending themselves is minimal. If the scenario this post depics is COMMON I'd like some specific examples given with links and additional data to back up the claim. I'm not calling BS on it but I'm saying, "Uh..........wait a minute here, this needs to be looked at more closely".;)

mag360 03-17-2013 2:33 AM

there are also a lot more instances when you shoot the crackhead with a knife and the da doesn't press charges, nor does his family.

Brian1979 03-17-2013 12:05 PM

So far the USCCA seems to be widely hated for spam and marketing. Its not clear if they really cover you in a time of need or not. I am thinking I need to look at other options.

So far this one seems to be a slam dunk and must have. It gets you going and isnt insurance. Its simply a payout to your lawyer when you need it for defending a SD situation. They have a panel of experts to help advise your lawyer and the names are legit guys. I just signed up for this. http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/lear...rship-benefits

I addition to the ACLDN I am thinking an insurance is a good idea. I am not sure what to do for insurance but the NRA seems like a good idea. https://nrains.locktonaffinity.com/C....aspx?pID=2697 . I dont want to waste money for nothing and spam. Anyone have a good combo of coverage that they researched before buying?

I have requested my State Farm Umbrella policy limits and will be reading them. If what they told me is true then for me I think the ACLDN should be all the extra I need. Civil liability is what I am worried about and thats what an Umbrella policy protects.

insidetheten 03-18-2013 6:25 PM

Really interested in this thread. I hadn't seen this one and started a new thread on CCW insurance.

Brian1979 03-20-2013 7:11 PM

Just to follow up:

My State Farm agent spent last 4 days calling the underwriters and claims department asking the same questions I gave to her in hopes that different people would still give her the same response. It was a little shaky at first but in the end its about as secure as anything else offered out there right now. They dont want to say they will cover a Self Defense situation for sure with out first reviewing the case when it happens. The general theme is if I am negligent in some way or it was purposeful not in a matter of self defense they wont cover me. They will cover legal fees and I am insured up to 2 million which is nice. Basically the good thing is they didnt say they WOULDNT cover self defense they just said it would need to be reviewed like anything else. They suggested I read into the other policies I mentioned to them regarding specific CCW insurance and see if they have broader coverage but in my research it doesnt seem to be so.

After market NRA style self defense insurance does the same thing. They all wont pay if you are found guilty at all. Basically this would be the other wording for negligence State Farm used. Like any insurance they wont come out and say that they will cover something no matter what. Will they cover an accident? Maybe is your best answer. Were you drunk, was it purposeful, were you at fault, etc....

In the end I went with the ACLDN and will maintain my umbrella coverage as what I feel to be adequate protection. I trust what State Farm can offer me more then something like USCCA or the like. FYI I researched them a lot and it seems to be a mass marketing scheme worse then front sight or NRA if you sign up. Not so sure on the coverages and like all the legal wording there is wording making each circumstance up for debate so I dont see any of these options better then umbrella policies. Some time ago I did request the USCCA to send me policy limits and it was iffy. I saw exclusions in there if lead bullets were used etc.

If someone wants to help prove me wrong or educate me better on the matter I would love to hear more. Right now I am just not sold that these CCW policies are going to be a slam dunk coverage either.

Charlie50 03-20-2013 7:27 PM

Hope others chime in with useful info. Thanks Brian1979. I am following with interest. It seems insurance coverage for LTC is one of the more useful topics on this board..

therealnickb 03-20-2013 8:15 PM

Brian, step away from the keyboard! Geeze Louise! We had this conversation and I thought you got it the first time.

People. Read your policy. Read any policy you may consider purchasing.

Dude on Internet can write as many generic paragraphs as he likes. IT WON'T MEAN SHEET! Read the policy!!!!!!!!

jdben92883 03-20-2013 8:53 PM

FrontSight makes participants very aware of the criminal/civil liability a shooter will likely face regardless of the circumstances of the shooting. I personally will never involve myself in a shooting unless it's to protect myself or my family...never a stranger.

Brian1979 03-21-2013 5:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by therealnickb (Post 10868296)
Brian, step away from the keyboard! Geeze Louise! We had this conversation and I thought you got it the first time.

People. Read your policy. Read any policy you may consider purchasing.

Dude on Internet can write as many generic paragraphs as he likes. IT WON'T MEAN SHEET! Read the policy!!!!!!!!

You would be the best person to help us. Please offer up some info. Nothing wrong with me digging deeper but I realize its almost impossible to get a straight answer or clear understanding of written policy limits.

So far its my best understanding my Umbrella is good to have. If you feel I should have any other type of insurance please clue me in. If I recall correctly you had your own insurance agency and understand this stuff.


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