12GA From Hell in a break action--
I'm visister here and it's nice site.
Two others and I made a long brass 12ga case. We made brass from bmg cases adding 12ga size rims. We testing it in heavy barreled guns and are getting huge energy levels.In a beefed up Savage 210 we got 730 gr slug to 2900 fps. Got a NEF chambered for long 3.85" case. And it has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case. Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy, 8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel. Dr Rob Garnick in your state put one in a big Borchardt falling block action with heavy barrel.Here is picture of the Savage.Ed. http://www.gunownerstv.com/redone.jpg |
long ways from THR :D , howdy
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Even longer from AR
:D |
Hi Hubel458,
I've been following your project on THR. An impressive project and cool as heck. [Inside Joke] IMHO, the ultimate graboid gun. "Looks like you broke into the wrong ******* rec room...." :D |
I want to shoot that bad boy!!!!:eek:
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Thanks fellows. A NEF Ultra 12 ga, Rocky Mtn Brass
for original three inch chamber, dies, 600 gr slugs(Dixies are good) and 4500+ ft lbs is possible.I pass the idea around to get others into the fun that Rob and I have.Ed |
holy crap that is a fine work of art
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Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers. Don't need Blue Dot starter powder, like we used with RE-15 and RE-7 to have reliable fast ignition.We did plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a nice working roll crimper attachment for drill press for crimping slugs. That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp. In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr. That's max as you must leave room for about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases may only hold 75 grains max due to the case construction.Powder is less dense than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel. In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6 inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps. Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to case construction. Cushion is a half inch felt wad or equivalent. Both lengths start down and go up if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long. This powder being faster than RE-15 you must have a little cushion in the way of felt wads or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15 a card wad works ok as powder started slower. The powder burning must build pressure to open crimp without a to high pressure spike. This bulky powder with reliable ignition is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15 loads pressure tested.Ed |
How much does it cost to build the least expensive version? IIRC it was $6xx-8xx, which would be a steal for this type of performance.
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With the powder I just tested it is best for NEF with
3" chamber. Nef Ultra slug gun is 220-250 bucks, and Rocky Mtn brass cases are 6 bucks each, and can be reloaded quite a few times.For brass cases, steel dies. Dies from Rcbs( they are supposed to have them) I don't know as I made my own. And some recoil reducers or lead in the butt stock and big thick recoil pad on the stock. If you do 12ga reloading you can start out with plastic cases and a roll crimping setup for drill press from precision reloading for $13.Ed |
Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive, all alloy steel construction, tested to about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their site shows testing at the Italian proof house of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality O/U like Ruger would handle 4759 loads.Ed http://www.zoli.it/america/images_z/z_espedition2.jpg |
Hot damnn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with 90 gr of 4759. We have a winner. Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi. tested with transducer test ing setup, in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+. Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that I figured with my math would have 15k psi.So my math and developement is OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic. Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759 will give slower time to peak pressure, thus will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads I fired, that expanded cases as much or more than our 4759 loads.Ed |
Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad, a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about 2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi, and work through modern guns.Another load tested with same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have to put in my max loads, but go down a little and use in modern guns that are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300 to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed |
Don't you want to keep your shoulders where there at ? OK I want one too but damm looks like a hawkin gun.
Whos selling them ? Quote:
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Pick up a heavy barrel 12ga 3" NEF Ultra slug gun,
and load up our 4759 loads we show above.Start with 80 gr of 4759, 600 gr slug,thin card over powder and 1/2" felt wad for cushion, and roll crimp....That will get you into the feel of big bore recoil without going all the way to setting up a gun with our full length brass super power case.Ed |
We are working on scaling up falling block action
to handle our 12GA FH, and similiar cartridges. Here is picture of top part of the first scale-up model, next to smaller Wickliffe. The Wickcliffe has a nice style that we like. There is 12GA FH round on the scaled up action feed trough. Model is aluminum for easy machining. Will handle 12ga of any length, our 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE, etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on mill table to do the machining.Next machining will be the hole and slot down through the action for breech block and hammer to slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to get some tooling.I had none when we set up vertical mill, and have to get more.The action model also will be narrowed up when finished, and contoured to look as good as the Wickcliffe.Ed. http://www.gunownerstv.com/su.jpg |
Impressive. What is the recoil like?
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Not bad in my guns as they have weight added and
a real big thick recoil pad.Ed. |
Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if hammer with beefed up spring would fire bmg primers.I scalloped out the back of the action so 12ga cases would feed into the action and temp chamber They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring makes it hard to cock. We will have to work on that.The original Wickcliffe action that we want to scale up is tall enough so that when breech block is lowered the block clears the bottom a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber. So in the scale up we need to just add a a little width for wider breech block, and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the sides thick for strength.Ed |
Bazooka. 3- 200gr marbles would be devasting. But if your making a fahrquar type action why bother with the shotgun type load. The 50 Alaskan will shoot 600 grainers.
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The Alaskan has a third the energy of our long brass 12ga
and the 10 million shotgun only guys can use it that way. The falling block we want to have built will work for others than our 12ga. 700NE, 50BMG, 600NE, my 700HE, etc.Ed |
Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to get the geometry for the scaleup model working ok.And setup measurements to make the breech hole in the action, in right place.Also used this model to get hammer and trigger set up to ride on the breech block. With a strong hammer and trigger in the right place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the lever pivots on. The actions being bigger will be wider than the levers;So the space on the pivot will be taken up by the Ruger style extractor on the left side and a spacer on the right side. Spacer also acts as a breech block stop at the bottom of the breech travel.So to get block stopped at right position for the diameter of the case and feed trough, we adjust spacer size. Ruger extractors from GP changed a little bit will do.Ed. http://www.gunownerstv.com/70.jpg http://www.gunownerstv.com/71.jpg |
Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects that I sectioned down the middle..I ground out the top to allow case to set higher, representing a the taller action that we will have due to larger diameter cases. That lever in the picture is the lever we will use with longer stroke. Also in the action layout is the breechblock, hammer, trigger with a 12GA FH in front, all in to check layout. This lever looks to be easier to fit and shape to bigger action and stock, with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil. Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/hta.jpg |
I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the 12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of some other cartridges I have with some of mine. 1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK 4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH, 8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/chh.jpg |
Pump
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Here is pic of the finished breech block model
for the scaleup action.You can see hammer and trigger mounted in the rear of the block.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/block.jpg |
Another shotgun/rifle experiment is 28ga FH.
Rocky MTN is making me some 3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi. That will get 500-550 gr out at 2500 in bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to 2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.Should average 17-1800. Just lengthen chamber. Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel made and screwed or soldered in monoblock. And being able to hold 38k to match brass, That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/28.jpg |
Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out stock to see how it looks. Action is a rough model. It shoulders nice, and lever is inlet into pistol grip, so you can't get banged up fingers with the big cartridges it is designed for, like levers that stick down at the guard.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/hfb |
Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action will have a slot in the top rear for a top tang of whatever length you need. Can even have long tang for tang sight.Ed http://www.gunownerstv.com/hfbo.jpg |
wow me likey
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Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech section for the monoblock. This one will be for 28GA FH. May get another same size for my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures with these.....I am trying to find a bigger, heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want heavier one so as to run pressures like my Savage as a minimum.Ed. http://www.gunownerstv.com/zab.jpg |
Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the grooves well as sharp bend works thick mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure. Then I use a die with slightly more taper and swage the mouth into slug, like the fit you get with bottleneck cases. Same deal works with our long cases made from BMG brass.Ed |
Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder, in plastic cases. Perfect ignition like the 4759. Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps. In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus. In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus. All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested. So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun powders, and much safer to work with for regular primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed |
Testing soft buckhammer vs hard Dixie. Dixie 600 gr,
Buckhammer from factory hull 640gr with locked on wad,both out of Savage at 2300. Dixie went through 2 -1/8" steel sheets and on through two more 3 feet away.Buckhammer went through first two with same round hole, but made a bunch of dents and one cockeyed hole 3 ft away.Ed |
Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers, that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed. Will do heavier slugs and RMC brass cases. Ed |
Ed,
Awesome pics and it think what you are doing is awesome. I just have a remington 870 pump with slug barrel and was wondering if i could shoot any of these "custom" 12 ga rounds out of it? I would like to just approach 2000 fps or a little more with maybe a 400 gr. or slightly heavier slug. Any thoughts? |
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Your barrel not being like NEF, you don't want to go heavier.Use the VV N110 loads I show. Don't go over my max.You can do slugs or saboted loads.Ed |
Tested 730g with 7383. Perfect ignition.Extracts easy.
130gr gives 1650 plus fps in 3" plastic. Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good. Have question about different cases and dies. The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have a real thick base. They are not a thin headed, balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick enough for regular 12ga wads. But in a break action the 3" plastic cases with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC. 3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3" And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power, which I could do as far as the firing process, the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to damage rim. A turned rim will not take what a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed |
Tested 870gr hard slug with 7383 in 3"
plastic. Over 1500 fps in NEF short barrel. I wish it had a longer 32" barrel.......... The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform. A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been viewed about 400,000 times in the forums we put it in.Ed |
Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases, w/600gr slug. It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load levels and velocities as 4759. Powders slower than shotgun type, that ignite properly with small primers(shotgun-lg rifle); we found 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus, the latter a slow powder that also works with real heavy slugs Ed |
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